Making a bet for a friend
May 30th, 2011 at 11:46:09 AM
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You are going to the casino and a friend gives you $50 to put through $5 slots.
You know exactly when you play their $50, and you hit a $200,000 jackpot.
The casino takes $40,000 for taxes (isn't 20% the norm ?), leaving $160,000.
Do you expect your friend to share some of the winnings with you? If so, how much ?
If you were the one who gave the $50, would you share some with the player? If so, how much?
You know exactly when you play their $50, and you hit a $200,000 jackpot.
The casino takes $40,000 for taxes (isn't 20% the norm ?), leaving $160,000.
Do you expect your friend to share some of the winnings with you? If so, how much ?
If you were the one who gave the $50, would you share some with the player? If so, how much?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
May 30th, 2011 at 11:48:16 AM
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How good of a friend?
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 30th, 2011 at 11:49:59 AM
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I would give or expect 50%. However to me in a situation like this a lot of times someone is not going to be happy.
IF YOU PLAY "PLAY TO WIN"
May 30th, 2011 at 11:50:49 AM
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If I was the player, I would like to think my friend would give me at least 5%, ie. $10,000, plus make sure the taxes were totally covered.
If I was the friend, I would like to think I would give the player $20,000, and would make sure the taxes were completely covered. I hope the greed would not take root on me...............
If I was the friend, I would like to think I would give the player $20,000, and would make sure the taxes were completely covered. I hope the greed would not take root on me...............
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
May 30th, 2011 at 11:54:54 AM
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If I won you $160,000 and you only gave me 10% id be very pissed. Should be at least 40%
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
May 30th, 2011 at 11:54:54 AM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsYou are going to the casino and a friend gives you $50 to put through $5 slots.
You know exactly when you play their $50, and you hit a $200,000 jackpot.
The casino takes $40,000 for taxes (isn't 20% the norm ?), leaving $160,000.
Do you expect your friend to share some of the winnings with you? If so, how much ?
If you were the one who gave the $50, would you share some with the player? If so, how much?
Quite interesting.. I just laid this out for 'gambler' as i am playing his $5 I owe him. The 20% number is a false number. If you are in a top income bracket in New York State you will pay over 40% to our combined friends, the Feds and the State. Just like your employer withholds a certain amount from each check, the final reconcilliation determines your exact tax liability. For me winning $200,000 would be worth around $116,000 or so. I would expect nothing from my friend, but I can't imagine he wouldn't give me something. I am not sure, but I would guess i would give a friend 10% or so if the shoe was on the other foot.
May 30th, 2011 at 12:04:30 PM
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There are factors to the equation that havent been mentioned. First of all, the person that put money into the machine holds all of the cards. He/she pulled the arm and won the jackpot and therefore has everything in their name and is paying the taxes.
How much did you put into the machine? Unless, the person who gave the $50 specifically said to go to a specific slot and put the $50 in it and play just that machine in that timeframe with only his/her $50, then here is how it should be divided...
You keep everything and tell your friend you lost.... lol just kidding. I would give my friend a direct percentage of what I cumulatively started with...eg, if I had $200 and my friend gave me $50, that would be a total starting kitty of $250. Therefore I would give my friend 20% of winnings minus taxes. I believe that to be fair.
How much did you put into the machine? Unless, the person who gave the $50 specifically said to go to a specific slot and put the $50 in it and play just that machine in that timeframe with only his/her $50, then here is how it should be divided...
You keep everything and tell your friend you lost.... lol just kidding. I would give my friend a direct percentage of what I cumulatively started with...eg, if I had $200 and my friend gave me $50, that would be a total starting kitty of $250. Therefore I would give my friend 20% of winnings minus taxes. I believe that to be fair.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
May 30th, 2011 at 12:15:45 PM
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I would ask the friend beforehand about it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
May 30th, 2011 at 12:34:02 PM
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Personally, I'd never be involved with this sort of thing.
I.E. If I gave someone $5 to play slots for me, or even to put on a Roulette number or pass line or whatever, I kinda expect the response to be, "I think you're gonna lose. Ha ha."
The only exception I would make is for a sports bet where a winner is public knowledge, and a loser will still have proof that the bet was actually placed.
I.E. If I gave someone $5 to play slots for me, or even to put on a Roulette number or pass line or whatever, I kinda expect the response to be, "I think you're gonna lose. Ha ha."
The only exception I would make is for a sports bet where a winner is public knowledge, and a loser will still have proof that the bet was actually placed.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 30th, 2011 at 1:26:27 PM
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Quote: RaleighCraps
If you were the one who gave the $50, would you share some with the player? If so, how much?
I'd share at least the $50 stake. However, if I were the friend, I wouldn't expect anything further than that, seeing as how the jackpot winner is the one that pulled the handle, and that person deserves the jackpot.
May 30th, 2011 at 1:33:59 PM
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Quote: wschmrdrI'd share at least the $50 stake. However, if I were the friend, I wouldn't expect anything further than that, seeing as how the jackpot winner is the one that pulled the handle, and that person deserves the jackpot.
using that logic if you give someone $50 and tell them to buy you a gizmo, the friend would keep the gizmo!! If you accept the $50 from your friend then the results of the bet are his, not yours. And as far as watch me win's analysis... If you just add the $50 to your bankroll and don't make a separate "this bet is for my friend' play, then, yes, you can give him a percentage of your total bankroll. If someone asks me to do this, I keep their bet separate from mine, and make their bet first....
May 30th, 2011 at 3:52:03 PM
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If it's not your $50, it won't cost you anything if you lose.
Hence it is only fair, that you won't win anything if you hit the jackpot. Anyway, it is not your $50 at stake, and hence it is not your win.
You should expect tax expences fully covered, and I would not expect more than 10% of winnings.
Hence it is only fair, that you won't win anything if you hit the jackpot. Anyway, it is not your $50 at stake, and hence it is not your win.
You should expect tax expences fully covered, and I would not expect more than 10% of winnings.
May 30th, 2011 at 4:00:04 PM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsYou are going to the casino and a friend gives you $50 to put through $5 slots.
You know exactly when you play their $50, and you hit a $200,000 jackpot.
The casino takes $40,000 for taxes (isn't 20% the norm ?), leaving $160,000.
Do you expect your friend to share some of the winnings with you? If so, how much?
If you were the one who gave the $50, would you share some with the player? If so, how much?
And I get the taxes in my name with none of the bennies? Yeah right! I tell them to forget about it! Guys (or gals) that do this must enjoy flushing money down to toilet.
What if you, on your own, win the $200,000. Then your buddy will always wonder if you screwed him or not. I'd tell them to go buy some lottery tickets and let me enjoy myself!
I live in NY and about 20 years ago, when lotteries were growing, the PA lottery got to $125,000,000. I had to go to PA on business. Friends of mine asked me to buy a total of $150 worth of tickets. So I have to go back to NY with the winning ticket and give it away for $1. I'm glad no one won!
May 30th, 2011 at 4:57:36 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuite interesting.. I just laid this out for 'gambler' as i am playing his $5 I owe him. The 20% number is a false number. If you are in a top income bracket in New York State you will pay over 40% to our combined friends, the Feds and the State.....
Yeah, your response to gambler was what prompted this thread. I was trying to factor in the tax issue with my response, but did not portray it correctly, since I used % based on jackpot won, not on the take home amount after taxes. I believe the take home amount from the casino would be 160,000, but as you noted, real taxes would likely be double the $40,000. So real win amount would be somewhere around 120k. 10% or $12k to the player, leaving the $50 friend with a net of $108k, is probably closer to what I proposed. In any event, I would make sure the player had all taxes covered first, then we would parcel out the win.
The wide range of answers so far has been interesting.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
May 30th, 2011 at 7:15:49 PM
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In the crazy and unlikely event that SooPoo does hit a huge jackpot on my $5 bet, I would gladly give him a cut of the profits after taxes have been paid.
I do find it interesting that this forum has such a huge range of what the bettor's commission should be. Some feel that it isn't your money to begin with and therefore no commission is necessary, though it would be nice. Others seem to demand as high as 50% of the profits as a finders fee or action fee.
When I plan a trip to Las Vegas, I normally get approached by friends and family to make a few bets for them. Some give me $20 to play the quarter slots, while others ask for specific craps or roulette bets. It's never for a ton of money, and mostly just for kicks and giggles. In the event that they do win something, I gladly give them their winnings and expect nothing in return. Now, I have never hit a huge life changing jackpot, but after I subtract the money to pay for taxes, I would give them the rest.
Now SooPoo, please wear your luckiest socks on the day that you go to the casino! I would love for us to have the problem of splitting a $1,000,000 jackpot!
I do find it interesting that this forum has such a huge range of what the bettor's commission should be. Some feel that it isn't your money to begin with and therefore no commission is necessary, though it would be nice. Others seem to demand as high as 50% of the profits as a finders fee or action fee.
When I plan a trip to Las Vegas, I normally get approached by friends and family to make a few bets for them. Some give me $20 to play the quarter slots, while others ask for specific craps or roulette bets. It's never for a ton of money, and mostly just for kicks and giggles. In the event that they do win something, I gladly give them their winnings and expect nothing in return. Now, I have never hit a huge life changing jackpot, but after I subtract the money to pay for taxes, I would give them the rest.
Now SooPoo, please wear your luckiest socks on the day that you go to the casino! I would love for us to have the problem of splitting a $1,000,000 jackpot!
May 30th, 2011 at 9:10:56 PM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsYeah, your response to gambler was what prompted this thread. I was trying to factor in the tax issue with my response, but did not portray it correctly, since I used % based on jackpot won, not on the take home amount after taxes. I believe the take home amount from the casino would be 160,000, but as you noted, real taxes would likely be double the $40,000. So real win amount would be somewhere around 120k. 10% or $12k to the player, leaving the $50 friend with a net of $108k, is probably closer to what I proposed. In any event, I would make sure the player had all taxes covered first, then we would parcel out the win.
The wide range of answers so far has been interesting.
Whoever pushes the button/pulls the handle is the person who is credited with the jackpot and therefore is stuck with the taxes. The law is set up this way to prevent the claiming of the jackpot from being made by an individual who would pay the least amount of taxes (should there be more than one person involved in the play.)
Since the jackpot is legally the property of "gambler" and not "loaner", "gambler" can set the terms. Since no terms were set beforehand, I think that a 50-50 split of the jackpot is reasonable. After all, the "loaner" has no real claim on the jackpot. If the net after taxes is 120K...60K each.
Joseph Kulas
May 31st, 2011 at 4:05:12 AM
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If I was the player, I would keep everything, and just tell the "friend" that I lost his $50, and then - can you believe it? - hit the jackpot on the very next spin!
If I was the firend, I would, of course expect the full amount - it is MY 50 bucks! After all, if I ask you to buy a gizmo, like somebody mentioned, you would not expect a commission from me would you?
If I was the firend, I would, of course expect the full amount - it is MY 50 bucks! After all, if I ask you to buy a gizmo, like somebody mentioned, you would not expect a commission from me would you?
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
May 31st, 2011 at 4:16:02 AM
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The lesson here is: you should know your friends really well before you ask them to do something like this.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
May 31st, 2011 at 4:30:08 AM
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The lesson I had in mind was don't ask your friends do something like this, even if you think you know them very well :)
Nobody likes disappointments. And what fun is it to have someone else spin the stupid wheel anyway?
Nobody likes disappointments. And what fun is it to have someone else spin the stupid wheel anyway?
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
May 31st, 2011 at 5:14:05 AM
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The problem, of course, is what happens if this is actually what happened? Would the friend believe it? Probably not.Quote: weaselmanIf I was the player, I would keep everything, and just tell the "friend" that I lost his $50, and then - can you believe it? - hit the jackpot on the very next spin!
This is why the only "friend" bet I would involve mysef in is a sports bet.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 31st, 2011 at 5:28:53 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearThe problem, of course, is what happens if this is actually what happened? Would the friend believe it? Probably not.
Why would he ask me to bet for him in the first place if he did not trust me? :)
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
May 31st, 2011 at 9:26:22 AM
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I only recall one time that someone asked me to place a bet for them. My wife and I were headed to Las Vegas, and a young lady I know gave me $5 to wager for her at my favorite game. I knew her well enough to know that she couldn't afford to be wasting even five bucks gambling, but it seemed to be part of her fantasy, like buying a lottery ticket.
Well, my favorite casino game is craps, and I don't know whether I ever got around to making a specific wager that I identified in advance as "her" $5. Instead, when I got home, I spun a drawn-out and dramatic tale about how I had bet the $5 on the pass line for her, rolled 11 to double her money, decided to keep her in play for another $5 pass bet, set a point of 10, tossed her $5 winnings on a hard 10, rolled half a dozen numbers and finally the double-5. She squealed, and I turned "her" $50 over to her. It was well worth the $45 it cost me, just to watch her thrill in the vicarious winning trip to a casino.
And no, I won't handle a similar wager for you in the same manner.
Well, my favorite casino game is craps, and I don't know whether I ever got around to making a specific wager that I identified in advance as "her" $5. Instead, when I got home, I spun a drawn-out and dramatic tale about how I had bet the $5 on the pass line for her, rolled 11 to double her money, decided to keep her in play for another $5 pass bet, set a point of 10, tossed her $5 winnings on a hard 10, rolled half a dozen numbers and finally the double-5. She squealed, and I turned "her" $50 over to her. It was well worth the $45 it cost me, just to watch her thrill in the vicarious winning trip to a casino.
And no, I won't handle a similar wager for you in the same manner.
May 31st, 2011 at 9:59:37 AM
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Hey Doc, I have $5 for you to bet for me the next time you go to Vegas!
Seriously, that was a very nice thing for you to do to your friend. The $45 seems worth it to make her smile.
I am a little saddened to hear that some people on this site would cheat their friends out of their money if they did hit a big jackpot with the money that they were given to gamble with. While I understand that legally the person who pulls the slot machine handle when the jackpot is hit has every right to all of the money, it still makes sad that the gentleman's agreement and trust is broken. If they are truly your friend, why are you cheating them?
I would personally have a hard time sleeping at night if I took someone's $5 bet, hit a $20,000 jackpot, and then "claimed" that it was my $5 bet in the first place. Then again, I believe in karma, and I know a lot of people don't.
Seriously, that was a very nice thing for you to do to your friend. The $45 seems worth it to make her smile.
I am a little saddened to hear that some people on this site would cheat their friends out of their money if they did hit a big jackpot with the money that they were given to gamble with. While I understand that legally the person who pulls the slot machine handle when the jackpot is hit has every right to all of the money, it still makes sad that the gentleman's agreement and trust is broken. If they are truly your friend, why are you cheating them?
I would personally have a hard time sleeping at night if I took someone's $5 bet, hit a $20,000 jackpot, and then "claimed" that it was my $5 bet in the first place. Then again, I believe in karma, and I know a lot of people don't.
May 31st, 2011 at 10:04:48 AM
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Even if I promose to be your best friend?Quote: DocAnd no, I won't handle a similar wager for you in the same manner.
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Ditto what Gambler said.
Then again, since we attribute gambling as an entertainment expense, I'm sure you got your money's worth when fabricating that story.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 31st, 2011 at 10:05:16 AM
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I wouldn't take bets for anyone but a close friend. Fortunately no one's ever asked.
Ok. My brother did ask me last time to place a bet on some sporting event, but I told him it would be easier for him to try the local sports book. He agreed.
Ok. My brother did ask me last time to place a bet on some sporting event, but I told him it would be easier for him to try the local sports book. He agreed.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
May 31st, 2011 at 10:38:29 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearEven if I promose to be your best friend?Quote: DocAnd no, I won't handle a similar wager for you in the same manner.
I've seen your photo, DJ, and you're no where near so cute as she is.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThen again, since we attribute gambling as an entertainment expense, I'm sure you got your money's worth when fabricating that story.
That I did. After making my post above, I remembered that I had teased her just a bit before giving her the $50. I continued the tale by saying her luck seemed to be running so good that I put it all on Aces straight up for the next roll. If it won, she would have had $1,600, but it lost, and the stick man just scooped up the chips. She looked absolutely crushed and shocked for the two seconds that I waited before saying I was kidding about that part.
IIRC, I came out a little ahead at the tables that trip, and I was adding to my fun by sharing a bit of the winnings and spinning yarns. I think she bought it all.
May 31st, 2011 at 11:35:39 AM
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Whenever someone gives me money to place a bet, I put the money in my wallet and then put it in my packet before looking them straight in the eye, and with a sad expression, I say "Sorry, dude. You lost".
To answer the question, I would give them the full amount minus 40% for taxes. Once I did my taxes I'd calculate a more accurate figure and rebate them the rest. I would expect them to buy my a beer, and if they offered more I'd stick to just wanting a beer. I would, however, take full advantage of writing off my looses for the year and keep that that additional benefit for myself in return for the additional effort of filing the taxes.
To answer the question, I would give them the full amount minus 40% for taxes. Once I did my taxes I'd calculate a more accurate figure and rebate them the rest. I would expect them to buy my a beer, and if they offered more I'd stick to just wanting a beer. I would, however, take full advantage of writing off my looses for the year and keep that that additional benefit for myself in return for the additional effort of filing the taxes.
May 31st, 2011 at 12:00:00 PM
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Normally, when someone asks me to make a bet for them in Vegas (or anywhere), the first thing I do is make the bet for them and see where it ends up. Usually I will make the bet even before I check into the hotel. Just get it out of the way so that it's excluded from my gambling budget. And send them the results in an email / text after the betting event is over.
Now, if a jackpot of $200,000 came up (or actually anything over $1,200), I would call the friend and tell them that they won, immediately. I would explain to them that I would have to deduct a portion of taxes (40 percent) and would give them 60 percent of the proceeds immediately with the difference payable once the tax return calculation was done. It would be fairly easy to figure out exactly what the tax liability would be based on projections on your income.
You made the bargain to make the bet on behalf of the person. It would be unethical to lie or to not return winnings to the friend. It's up to the friend to make the offer of an additional split. The same goes in reverse. If you lose the $50 but hit a jackpot later on, you don't have any obligation to give your friend any of those winnings (though I would probably give the person back the original bet and tell the friend to come to Vegas with me, next time).
Now, if a jackpot of $200,000 came up (or actually anything over $1,200), I would call the friend and tell them that they won, immediately. I would explain to them that I would have to deduct a portion of taxes (40 percent) and would give them 60 percent of the proceeds immediately with the difference payable once the tax return calculation was done. It would be fairly easy to figure out exactly what the tax liability would be based on projections on your income.
You made the bargain to make the bet on behalf of the person. It would be unethical to lie or to not return winnings to the friend. It's up to the friend to make the offer of an additional split. The same goes in reverse. If you lose the $50 but hit a jackpot later on, you don't have any obligation to give your friend any of those winnings (though I would probably give the person back the original bet and tell the friend to come to Vegas with me, next time).
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
May 31st, 2011 at 12:45:25 PM
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I'm interested in the tax ramifications here.
The IRS thinks I've won a $200K jackpot. Now *I* have to pay taxes on that -- and the actual tax bracket for that amount if single is 35%, not 20%, plus state taxes* and various phaseouts for things such as itemized deductions and Roth IRA contributions.
Is there some way to transfer the tax liability to my friend? I could declare a gift to him (and do it in annual installments of $13K if we're worried about the lifetime gift tax exemption), but the IRS would still consider the $200K to be *my* income. Nevada law at least is pretty definitive about the person pushing the button owning the jackpot (and presumably, incurring the tax liability), so there's no help there.
At the very least, my friend owes me enough to cover the taxes on the additional income, plus any cost of hiring a CPA to work this whole mess out.
(*This may be zero if it is considered "Nevada income" -- usually, you are taxed according to the state you earn the income in. Professional athletes, for example, usually have to fill out tax forms for multiple states.)
The IRS thinks I've won a $200K jackpot. Now *I* have to pay taxes on that -- and the actual tax bracket for that amount if single is 35%, not 20%, plus state taxes* and various phaseouts for things such as itemized deductions and Roth IRA contributions.
Is there some way to transfer the tax liability to my friend? I could declare a gift to him (and do it in annual installments of $13K if we're worried about the lifetime gift tax exemption), but the IRS would still consider the $200K to be *my* income. Nevada law at least is pretty definitive about the person pushing the button owning the jackpot (and presumably, incurring the tax liability), so there's no help there.
At the very least, my friend owes me enough to cover the taxes on the additional income, plus any cost of hiring a CPA to work this whole mess out.
(*This may be zero if it is considered "Nevada income" -- usually, you are taxed according to the state you earn the income in. Professional athletes, for example, usually have to fill out tax forms for multiple states.)
May 31st, 2011 at 5:44:10 PM
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"Sour Grapes" was made in 1998. In the movie, two friends are sitting next to each other at the slots. One turns to the other and says "loan me two quarters so I can play all three wheels".
The player hits the Jackpot for $436,000. Now the arguments start. Does the player owe his friend half of the Jackpot.....two thirds of the Jackpot.....or just 50 cents?
That's what then movie is about. Unfortunately, I don't remember much more about the movie.
The player hits the Jackpot for $436,000. Now the arguments start. Does the player owe his friend half of the Jackpot.....two thirds of the Jackpot.....or just 50 cents?
That's what then movie is about. Unfortunately, I don't remember much more about the movie.
May 31st, 2011 at 7:17:15 PM
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Quote: FatGeezusThe player hits the Jackpot for $436,000. Now the arguments start. Does the player owe his friend half of the Jackpot.....two thirds of the Jackpot.....or just 50 cents?
Strictly speaking, fifty cents.
If you get a loan from a bank to launch a business, and in time you make it worth billions, you don't owe the bank more than the amount borrowed and the interest agreed upon.
The difference is that it takes no skill to hit a jackpot, therefore the borrower cannot claim any skill was involved, just luck. But had the lender not lent him fifty cents, he wouldn't have hit the jackpot, at least not for so much. So the decent thing to do is to share at least a significant part of the jackpot with the lender, say no less than 1/3 after taxes.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
June 1st, 2011 at 5:37:24 PM
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Quote: FatGeezus"Sour Grapes" was made in 1998. In the movie, two friends are sitting next to each other at the slots. One turns to the other and says "loan me two quarters so I can play all three wheels".
The player hits the Jackpot for $436,000. Now the arguments start. Does the player owe his friend half of the Jackpot.....two thirds of the Jackpot.....or just 50 cents?
That's what then movie is about. Unfortunately, I don't remember much more about the movie.
I think the alternate ending involved a shovel, the trunk of a Lincoln towncar, and a whole lot of desert... hehe
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
