Question on royal line of succession
Poll
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| | 5 votes (62.5%) |
8 members have voted
An American told me Elizabeth's husband is not the king because:
1. He has no blood connection to the royal family.
2. A queen is lower than a king, and the highest ranking member of the royal family must have royal blood.
The question for the poll is whether this is right? Also, if William becomes king, and then dies, would Kate retain her queen title?
I found no answer to your question in a quick Wiki review.
Maybe some of our UK members would have an answer.
Quote: ten2winHe is the "Consort" to the Queen, Prince Phillip
Thanks. You hardly ever hear about the guy.
And that's the first laugh I've had all week.
"King" can only mean a male monarch (Head of State, person who would be running the place if it weren't really a democracy).
"Queen" can mean either female monarch (Elizabeth II) or the wife of a male monarch (like the late Queen Mother Elizabeth, the wife of George VI. She was Queen Elizabeth while he was alive)
I believe "Queen Mother" is special title for a King's widow who is the mother of the new monarch.
If you forget how they are related, go see "The King's Speech" again. The two children are the future Queen Elizabeth II and her sister Margaret.
One need only look at the abdication to see all the arcane rules as to how the former King of England would be addressed and what rights he would be entitled to.
Primogeniture does not settle the question. The first born son usually becomes the Prince of Wales but this does require an act of the Queen. Most Royal actions are simply by Grace and Favor. If the Queen appoints someone to some office or right, it is not for the beneficiary to accept. Its a done deal by a royal act. The documents usually start out "by the Grace and Favor of Her Majesty" ... and there is never an "acceptance" of that which has been conferred.
Philip is a prince of Greece and Denmark. As his wife was becoming queen, he was granted the UK title of Duke of Edinburgh.
The husband of the royal queen is the queen's consort and may be granted various titles, as was Philip. The wife of the royal king is the king's consort and is automatically awarded the title of queen, though this is different from inheriting the position of ruling monarch.
Did Elizabeth marry Philip AFTER she became queen? Perhaps that has something to do with it.
Of course, it causes me to think / ask what happens if William passes away before becoming king. Does Kate remain in the line of succession? I think not.
What if William passes before Kate, but after becoming king. Does she keep her title? Again, I think not.
For the record, I have no interest in the royal family, but I do find this question intriguing.
(On the flip side, I loved the movie King Ralph.)
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Did Elizabeth marry Philip AFTER she became queen? Perhaps that has something to do with it.
No, she married him in 1947, and ascended the throne in early 1952 when her father died. Two of her children were already living when she became queen.
Now I gotta figure out what they sing instead of "God Save The Queen" if there is a King...I did notice she did not sing to herself during the wedding...
Quote: RonC"King" is the highest position in their system; if the "Queen" is the one entitled to the throne by succession, there will be no "King"...her husband cannot have a title higher than hers. If the next in line is the "King", he can have a "Queen" known more formally as the Queen consort. She is NOT entitled to the throne. Should the "King" pass away (or abdicate), her offspring ascend to the throne ("King" or "Queen") and she becomes the "Queen Mother".
Now I gotta figure out what they sing instead of "God Save The Queen" if there is a King...I did notice she did not sing to herself during the wedding...
Correct on all points, as far as I know at least!
"God Save The Queen" reverts back to "God Save The King" when the monarch is a King. Likewise, naval ships are currently named HMS whatever which stands for Her Majesty's Ship. These become His Majesty's Ship when there is a King.
http://www.britroyals.com/succession.htm
Quote: boymimboUs Canadians will have the pictures of William on all of our currency.
And us Australians, too. We tried to become a republic but failed. Someone once attempted to organise a revolution but the general response was "I can't be bothered, it seems like hard work. I'm going down to the beach". We're too lazy to revolt. :)
Quote: boymimboWhen William becomes King, Catherine will become Queen, with no powers. Us Canadians will have the pictures of William on all of our currency. Under the current rules (which the current queen wants to change), Williams first born SON will become the next King of England. If Kate and William only have daughters, than the 1st born daughter will become Queen. Queen Elizabeth II is championing that the first born (no matter boy or girl) will become King or Queen.
Interesting side note boymimbo is in order to change the succession rules it has to be a unanimous decision of many of the current royalty, Britain and each member of the commonwealth. So Canada (or another Commonwealth country) could veto the change. Ties into a previous thread where Nareed wondered why we Canadians would have a British queen. We actually have some say in who it is.
Quote: teddysI'm sensing a pacomartin response, right about ... now
Queen is a general purpose word that can have the following qualifications:
Queen Consort is the wife of a monarch
Queen Regent is a monarch herself
Queen Mother is a former queen consort who is mother of the present monarch (you must be both things0
Queen Dowager is the widow of a past monarch
The problem is that you don't normally say the qualifier.
No man gets a title from a woman by marrying her If you marry a princess you are not a prince. However, a man can receive a title from a monarch.
When Prince Phillip (who had no surname) was born, he was a Prince of Denmark and Greece. But the Greek monarchy was overthrown when he was a baby. Since he was distantly related to the Danish monarchy he was raised by his mother's family in England and went to military school. As a prince he had no surname (royalty did not adopt surnames in the 13th century), but for practical purposes he used the surname Mountbatten. The family's name was Battenberg (a surname invented in 1850's, which was Anglicized by the British relatives in 1917 to combat anti-German feeling in WWI. Berg means "hill" but "mount" is equivalent and sounds better.
Upon his engagement Phillip renounced his titles of Prince of Denmark and Greece and assume the common name of Lt. Phillip Mountbatten in the royal navy. The day before his marriage, his father in-law made him royal and a duke, but did not make him a prince. His title was His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh.
After 9 years of marriage and two children, and his wife had been monarch for five years, she followed the example of her great great grandmother, Queen Victoria, and made her husband a British Prince. He is free to use either or both of his titles now, but Prince Phillip is the higher title. Queen Victoria made her husband Albert, Prince Consort after they had 9 children. Before that he did not have a British title, but relied solely on the German title he was given as a child "Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duke of Saxony". Like Phillip he was permitted to use "His Royal Highness" upon his marriage to Victoria.
So if you marry a female royal you are entitled to no title at all, but you are commonly given one. But a monarch cannot award a title higher than hers. Bloody Mary tried to make her husband who was King of Spain also the King of England, but her countrymen would not let her do it. Her absent husband did not ever get a British title.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Of course, it causes me to think / ask what happens if William passes away before becoming king. Does Kate remain in the line of succession? I think not.
What if William passes before Kate, but after becoming king. Does she keep her title? Again, I think not.
Catherine is not in the line of succession. She gets her title purely as a result of being married. The proper terminology is that they are courtesy titles. If William passes before Kate, but after becoming king (which is the most likely scenario), then Catherine will be the Dowager Queen, but the word "Dowager" can be understood. She will be called "Queen Catherine" the rest of her life. If William passes before becoming King, she will retain the title of "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" her whole life or until a new Duke of Cambridge is named. But out of respect to her, no one will name a new Duke of Cambridge while she lives. As a widow she will keep "Her Honorable Highness" as well, but if they are divorced that part will vanish.
Queen Mary was in line to the throne of England through her father, James II, but her brother James Stuart was surplanted her and this all led to the glorious revolution where her and her husband, William of Orange took over the UK crown in a (relatively) bloodless coup. Well at least in England and Wales. The Irish rejected it (and we have the battle of the Boyne and 300+ years of troubles from that) and James Stuart and his son, Charles Stuart (Bonnie Prince Charlie) raised two unsuccessful revolts in Scotland over it.
Mary died, but William was King via the co-regency, though he really only inherited via marriage (he was a first Cousin to his wife).
Prince Phillip is widely talked about in the UK press. He's a bit of a character and known to make various gaffe's and racially inappropriate comments on state visits. There's also the Duke of Edinburgh's award which most middle-class kids of my age at least know all about.
Quote: pacomartinQueen is a general purpose word ... but if they are divorced that part will vanish.
Thank you! That about says it all I think.
Quote: thecesspitThe co-regency of Queen Mary and King William is a bit of a special case (and before the sucession laws were passed).Queen Mary was in line to the throne of England through her father, James II, but her brother James Stuart was surplanted her and this all led to the glorious revolution where her and her husband, William of Orange took over the UK crown in a (relatively) bloodless coup. Well at least in England and Wales. The Irish rejected it (and we have the battle of the Boyne and 300+ years of troubles from that) and James Stuart and his son, Charles Stuart (Bonnie Prince Charlie) raised two unsuccessful revolts in Scotland over it. Mary died, but William was King via the co-regency, though he really only inherited via marriage (he was a first Cousin to his wife).
The way this is explained is that parliament in this decision proved that they were now the final authority in government. They had the right to bypass any succession laws and name the monarch. They deliberately overthrew the King because he now had a Catholic son from his second wife. While they could tolerate a Catholic King growing old and dying, they did not want a catholic dynasty. Since King James II ran away to France in order to save his life, his flight was used as a pretext to say by leaving the country he had abdicated, and they could name his daughter from his first marriage, and her husband as co-monarchs (i.e. no consorts).
Did you notice that the pope came to the UK by way of Scotland first. He wanted to feel on comfortable Catholic territory. That is considered a grotesque breech of protocol by any other head of state in the world. Obama is thinking of visiting a tiny little Irish town where one of his ancestors grew up. He was invited to come and visit Northern Ireland by some former IRA member, who are now statesmen. He was informed that no head of state can visit any part of the UK before London without express approval from the Queen.
Our second colonial college after Harvard, was named William and Mary College in Williamsburg VA.
It is not totally correct to say that Prince Phillip has no royal blood. He and his wife are second cousins once removed by their common descent from King Christian IX, and they are 3rd cousin by their common descent from Queen Victoria. Prince Phillip is in the line for the throne, but about 500 positions after his wife. Prince Phillip has more European royal blood than his wife, because he is descended from royalty on both sides of his family, while Elizabeth is only descended on her father's side. But it's not about how much royal blood you have, it's just who has descended from King George I by the rules of male preference primogeniture.
Quote: VirgiWhat happens if the Queen's hubby dies and she remarries to Joe Biden?
Joe Biden is the Queen's consort. Makes no difference to the succession. Might make a difference to Joe if he likes marrying 85 year old women.
Quote: pacomartinThe way this is explained is that parliament in this decision proved that they were now the final authority in government. They had the right to bypass any succession laws and name the monarch. They deliberately overthrew the King because he now had a Catholic son from his second wife. While they could tolerate a Catholic King growing old and dying, they did not want a catholic dynasty. Since King James II ran away to France in order to save his life, his flight was used as a pretext to say by leaving the country he had abdicated, and they could name his daughter from his first marriage, and her husband as co-monarchs (i.e. no consorts).
Yep yep. I was just mentioning it as it's a exception of sorts. Not that there's really anything more than a series of exceptions and changes and revolts and what ifs in the royal lineage through out history.
Quote:Did you notice that the pope came to the UK by way of Scotland first. He wanted to feel on comfortable Catholic territory. That is considered a grotesque breech of protocol by any other head of state in the world. Obama is thinking of visiting a tiny little Irish town where one of his ancestors grew up. He was invited to come and visit Northern Ireland by some former IRA member, who are now statesmen. He was informed that no head of state can visit any part of the UK before London without express approval from the Queen.
Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland? There's still plenty of sectarian division in Scotland between the Catholics and Protestants, though less bombs and more guns and fists.
Quote:It is not totally correct to say that Prince Phillip has no royal blood. He and his wife are second cousins once removed by their common descent from King Christian IX, and they are 3rd cousin by their common descent from Queen Victoria. Prince Phillip is in the line for the throne, but about 500 positions after his wife. Prince Phillip has more European royal blood than his wife, because he is descended from royalty on both sides of his family, while Elizabeth is only descended on her father's side. But it's not about how much royal blood you have, it's just who has descended from King George I by the rules of male preference primogeniture.
I thought it was descendance from the Electress of Hanover (which I guess works out much the same in the end).
Quote: WizardBy the way, where is Switch when we need him?
5:25 am Monday morning I think Switch is asleep!
Quote: pacomartinQueen is a general purpose word that can have the following qualifications:
Queen Consort is the wife of a monarch
Queen Regent is a monarch herself
Queen Mother is a former queen consort who is mother of the present monarch (you must be both things0
Queen Dowager is the widow of a past monarch
The problem is that you don't normally say the qualifier.
Just curious, what do you call a Queen who abdicates?
Quote: thecesspitI thought it was descendance from the Electress of Hanover (which I guess works out much the same in the end).
Well the Electress had four sons and a daughter, but three sons never produced any children, and the fourth son, the future George I, locked his wife up for 33 years for cheating (even though he had three illegitimate children of his own). Then the Electress's daughter died after only one child ( a daughter). So Sophia only had three grandchildren, and two of them married each other. It was looking like the British parliament had chosen the wrong family and they might not make it.
But they all ended up being descended from King George I through either his son or his daughter. His Daughter/nephew marriage produced all the kings of Prussia, Kings of Germany, and finally the emperors of Germany. His son (future George II) produced all the monarchs of Britain and intermarried with . Not bad for one family.
Quote: teeth1Just curious, what do you call a Queen who abdicates?
No British monarch except James II has ever abdicated, and he claims he never abdicated. I think they still use the term Queen in Netherlands where they have had two Queens who abdicated.
There is not really a problem with having more than one queen. Britain had three for two years in the early 1950's. You had a reigning queen monarch, her mother, and her grandmother. It's just that Queen Elizabeth had the same first name as her mother. The official way was to call the mother "Queen Elizabeth" and the daughter "Elizabeth. The Queen" or "Queen Elizabeth II". But they decided that would be too confusing, so they had the mother go by "Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother" which was longer but had no chance of confusion.
Quote: pacomartinNo British monarch except James II has ever abdicated, and he claims he never abdicated. I think they still use the term Queen in Netherlands where they have had two Queens who abdicated. ............
Thanks, Paco. I think it's a distinct possibility. Wouldn't want to see another Karol Wojtyla situation.
Quote: pacomartinNo British monarch except James II has ever abdicated...
What about Edward VIII, as depicted in The King's Speech?
Quote: WizardWhat about Edward VIII, as depicted in The King's Speech?
I am sorry, of course Edward VIII abdicated.
I was thinking about succession and families and two kings at the same time. Edward was reduced to a Duke, and he had no children so there were no alternative claims to the throne.
James II converted to Catholicism before his succession, remarried and had a son a few months before his overthrow. He was trying to start a Catholic dynasty. He had the support of northern England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland but not that of the powerful Anglican core of the country. Parliament conspired against their king and held a vote in the middle of the night failing to tell the Scottish and other Catholic members of parliament about the secret session. They conspired with William and Mary, who were respectively the nephew and daughter of James II and 4th and 2nd in the line of succession behind the Catholic baby of James II.
The Catholic Relief Act of 1829 removed the most substantial restrictions on Roman Catholicism in the United Kingdom. One of the most visible restrictions still in place is the prohibition against a Catholic becoming the monarch. It wasn't until 1978 that a British Prince first married a Catholic, and it wasn't until 1994 that the wife of a high ranking Duke and first cousin to the Queen converted. Now there about 9 people in the male line Windsor family.
Many people are not bothered by this. The assumption is that if one of the high ranking princes wants to marry a Catholic, then there will be stronger support to actually changing the Act. Although Prince Michael was born about 7th in line to the throne in 1944, by the time he married a Catholic in 1978 he was in the mid 20's in rank.
