Poll

6 votes (30%)
2 votes (10%)
No votes (0%)
12 votes (60%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)

20 members have voted

ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
Joined: Aug 30, 2010
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March 10th, 2011 at 7:26:09 PM permalink
Recently, President Obama reversed his campaign promise and subsequent executive order to close the terrorist prison at Guantanamo Bay and discontinue military tribunals in lieu of civilian trials. The question is meant to ask y'all to guess his intentions.
timberjim
timberjim
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March 11th, 2011 at 3:37:45 AM permalink
I believe he fully intended to do this. He was/is naive and uninformed. He discovered he can no longer vote "present" and must make real decisions
P90
P90
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March 11th, 2011 at 3:49:52 AM permalink
All presidents make promises they have no intention of keeping. Obama's campaign was particularly high on unrealistic promises that no one but the least educated classes even expected him to keep.

That said, I think he did kinda want to close Guantanamo, just the same way as how people kinda want to start eating right the next year, just after they finish this cake and the one tomorrow. Then found it's too useful a tool and decided "what the hell". He's not stupid, so had to know there would be a cost, but when in doubt, say the popular thing.

I think every president candidate wants to eat his cake and have it too close Gitmo and have it too. There is a difference between wanting something and being committed enough to actually do it.
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RonC
RonC
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March 11th, 2011 at 3:58:26 AM permalink
I do not think that "he lied"--I just think his lack of experience and his liberal views led him to make a promise he thought he could keep. He also promised transparency and to keep lobbyists out of his administration.

Maybe I made a mistake in my vote in this poll...hmmm...
weaselman
weaselman
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March 11th, 2011 at 5:24:11 AM permalink
Obama is many things, but he is not stupid. Yes, he was/is naive, and inexperienced. But the question is was he more inexperienced and naive, than, say, me or my 15-year-old niece? Even if he was, was everybody else in his campaign as naive, or was he stupid enough to not listen to anyone around hime? I don't think so.

I can't believe he was the only one who could not see it could not be done. It's just a lame excuse. Of course, he knew, he just did not care. Talk is cheap, and he is very well aware of that.
Looks like I am saying almost exactly the same thing as P90, but my conclusion is "he lied", while his is "hi did not" :) Or isn't it?
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AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 11th, 2011 at 5:25:41 AM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

Recently, President Obama reversed his campaign promise and subsequent executive order to close the terrorist prison at Guantanamo Bay and discontinue military tribunals in lieu of civilian trials. The question is meant to ask y'all to guess his intentions.



I think he wanted to close it, but as some of us could tell from the begining, he was naieve and inexperienced such that he didn't realize it was put in place for good reason. I knid of can hear a Presidet Bush sayhing to Obama in a dream, "fighting muslim extremists not as easy as you thought it was, is it?"
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
SFB
SFB
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March 11th, 2011 at 5:28:16 AM permalink
Yes, its a lot easier to make the promise to do something.

1. Close Gitmo, because it represents so MANY things wrong.
2. Allow trials for the folks there, because we have a Constituition, and you have the right to a trial.

Real easy to make these arguments when you are on the outside.

And then, TA-DA, your in charge. And you get all the facts. Which you knew ALREADY, but since the OTHER GUY had come to that conclusion, it must be WRONG. So, you take a few years, throw a few bones, "We gonna try this..." and then, you announce that, "Yes, these are the only things we can do"

1. Keep Gitmo open becasue there are NO other alternatives.
2. Trials? We don't need no stinking trials for these guys!

Last time I checked, Prisoners of War are not released until the war is over. And I think there is still shooting going on in Afganistan.

The choices are bad. And the other guys had made the seeming best choices from all those bad choices. And it was easy to critize till YOU had to make them.

That is why the statement about Gitmo, to keep it open, was two paragraphs. Yet the Administration plan to have trials was a media Day and thick briefing books about the plan, and why, and all the supporting reasons....

Just the government doing the old "Move on, Nothing to see here...."

SFB
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 11th, 2011 at 5:39:36 AM permalink
Quote: SFB

Yes, its a lot easier to make the promise to do something.

1. Close Gitmo, because it represents so MANY things wrong.
2. Allow trials for the folks there, because we have a Constituition, and you have the right to a trial.

SFB



I think it goes to more than that. Bush was a fighter pilot, MBA, and businessman. As a pilot you are taught "fly the plane first!" Unruly passenger? FLY THE PLANE. Engine on fire? FLY THE PLANE! As an MBA you are taught to look at all the available facts and make a decision. The decision may be wrong or it may be right, but DO SOMETHING. You can worry about the consequences later, but they will be worse if you decide nothing and go out of business. Add in deadlines for things like making a payroll. Bush was also a govenor, more decison-making required. Bush was hard-wired to make a decision on-time.

Obama was a lawyer, community organizer, and senator. As a lawyer you are taught to respect the law and Constitution. You are taught to think of everything that *might* happen and write that into a contract. As a community organizer you have no deadlines and few people to answer to, and those people are not stockholdedrs but usally a looser group with time and money on their side. You just have to say, "we SHOULD do 'x'." Finally, senators are always debating and avoid taking a position until the final vote. They have a job where they can call people up and grill them for what they did, while as a senator you can avoid doing anything in many cases.

So in a campaign Obama can say, "why didn't you just give them trials in the USA?" After he is elected he learns why. Same as the kid fresh out of college takes who thinks he knows how a business runs. Then he gets hired and learns running a business is not what you learned in your books but is the real world.
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P90
P90
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March 11th, 2011 at 6:43:39 AM permalink
Quote: weaselman

I can't believe he was the only one who could not see it could not be done. It's just a lame excuse. Of course, he knew, he just did not care. Talk is cheap, and he is very well aware of that.
Looks like I am saying almost exactly the same thing as P90, but my conclusion is "he lied", while his is "hi did not" :) Or isn't it?


I would put it this way, it's not a stone-cold lie, same way as going all-in on a gutshot draw isn't a stone cold bluff. It's more like how a husband tells his wife "I'm going to fix the roof this weekend!" [probably] [if I'm not tired at work] [if none of my friends call] [if there's nothing good on TV] [if I don't change my mind] [well if I feel particularly like fixing some roofs].

So he lied not about wanting to close Guantanamo (probably), but about being committed to do it. While at that, I'm pretty sure Bush wanted to close it too, certainly so after the word got out.
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AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 11th, 2011 at 7:12:49 AM permalink
Quote: P90

ISo he lied not about wanting to close Guantanamo (probably), but about being committed to do it. While at that, I'm pretty sure Bush wanted to close it too, certainly so after the word got out.



Word got out--about what? That the prisoners there live a life far better than the average Cuban under Castro?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

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