darkoz
darkoz
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May 4th, 2021 at 7:53:22 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Perhaps the main reason DarkOz lost was that he was not a sympathetic character to the jury. No matter the technical legality of the using dozens of other people’s cards, most everyone will feel that it is plain wrong to do so. People have an internal code of ethics, and most all would realize that DarkOz was trying to take advantage of an offer that in no way the casino MEANT to make available to him.

The jury must have felt that it was reasonable to assume that a crime was being committed, and even though that was found out to not be true, it was reasonable to think the cards were stolen. The fact that he was held for just an hour or two, and was not harmed, shows how minor this event was. I’ll bet the jurors have been ‘held’ longer in a traffic jam on the LIE (Long Island Expressway).

I do admire DarkOz’s ‘balls’ in bringing this lawsuit. Not his brains. And frankly, it seems like your lawyer was incompetent. As has been mentioned by other posters....

How many days/hours did you put into this endeavor? How much money (Wiz for a week has to be $$,$$$$). How many lost days of ‘work’ for you?

In summary..... from what you have shared, you had a weak case with a bad lawyer. But I still think you can be proud you had an idea and did all you could to make it come to fruition. Next time at least insult the casino security guy’s mother so he at least assaults you, so you will have a better case.



I agree the sympathetic factor was a major influence.

I find gamblers admire Advantage Players for the most part because they too fantasize about winning and beating Casinos but as soon as I explain what I do to non-gambling people it's totally the opposite.

Non-gamblers seem to be brainwashed that the "Casino always wins" and anyone who figures out how to beat them is doing so unfairly (interestingly most don't understand the mechanism of short pay and Casino tactics to separate patrons from there money that no rightful person would consider fair).

I know at least two friends who claim what I do should be illegal even though they can't articulate why ("the card has someone else's name right?") Is usually the excuse.

As for my choice of attorney there was a good few months where I could not find an attorney who understood gambling inside of NYC. In fact there is a reason Bob Nersessian is such a well recognized specialist and it's because it's difficult to find an attorney who feels comfortable with gambling related lawsuits.

Finding an attorney willing to work for so many years predicated on getting paid only if she wins was even more difficult so whether she was competent or not I won't bad-mouth her.

I can't say I lost any work hours as I always have my employees cover for me anyway. And pursuing your rights, even if you don't prevail is not wasted hours IMHO.

I am currently contemplating a lawsuit in a different jurisdiction but that will cost some money and I haven't decided if I want to pursue it yet. The window is open in that situation whenever I wish to move forward
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MDawg
MDawg
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May 4th, 2021 at 8:06:06 AM permalink
I did make a few detailed analysis posts in this thread, based on the law as best I am able to apply it here, however, without knowing under what exact statute he was detained, and under what statute or common law he presented the lawsuit, there is not much more to analyze legally speaking.

Over all, DarkOz doesn't know much about the law and is filling in gaps based on misinformation or imprecise analysis of both the situation and the law. For example, there is no law or principle that "15 minutes detention is okay" but "one hour is not." The law that applies here turns on whether the detention was reasonable under the circumstances (and again, knowing under what statute(s) he was detained would be helpful). However, DarkOz does have the foresight to understand that he will not be a sympathetic plaintiff in these situations, but not because of a bias in favor of that casinos always win, but because most jurors will view him as "getting over" on the casinos through some kind of ploy.

That lawsuit of his was never worth much, as mentioned by SooPoo, and I am surprised the attorney didn't just try to settle it for even $10,000. years earlier. (Maybe she wanted to do that, but DarkOz disagreed with any settlement.) I doubt the casino would have even offered the full $25,000. that the court suggested once they were already there and ready to go to trial. Just because the court opined that the case was not worth more than $25K doesn't mean that the casino was willing to pay $25K.
The casinos don't want to leave behind a precedent or trail of any kind of people getting away with suing them for anything successfully, and typically take things all the way to trial. Now, if they lose on appeal AFTER trial, or lose some kind of appellate evidentiary points related to trial, then yes they do settle, but otherwise, rarely do they cough up a penny unless they know they are completely in the wrong.

This was a loser lawsuit from the beginning, but I do understand the general principle of wanting to go forward with it, especially after finding an attorney willing to take it on contingency. I assume DarkOz had to cover all costs and expert witness fees out of pocket.
Last edited by: MDawg on May 4, 2021
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
darkoz
darkoz
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May 4th, 2021 at 8:34:58 AM permalink
For those who claim this was a weak case I disagree.

For one thing this basis is made without having seen the surveillance footage. The Wizard saw the footage. Perhaps he can chime in but I recall he was surprised at what the Casino thought they were allowed to do.

The case was never about me not following the rules of the casino but what the Casino was allowed to do to stop my performing a basically legal AP maneuver.

Finally for those people that imagine we filed the lawsuit and then five years later just showed up in court that is nowhere near the whole story.

Over five years there were motions to dismiss from resorts world (five in all I believe) citing this reason and that and all motions to dismiss were denied

Motion to suppress the surveillance tapes also caused a fight for years and eventually resorts world lost that as well (although with the caveat that I could not show the surveillance footage or post on any website)

At least four different judges made decisions over the years and none said this case had no merits and threw out the suit so any armchair lawyers discussion of the merits is just that. Armchair discussion.

I suppose that's what this forum is for, armchair discussion but my point is the case had enough "merits" to wind it's way through a very complicated legal system.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2021 at 9:02:31 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg


That lawsuit of his was never worth much, as mentioned by SooPoo, and I am surprised the attorney didn't just settle it for even $10,000. years earlier.

You don't know that, you are saying this after the fact. People have received significant amounts for back-rooming with much less intrusiveness and time spent being detained, even after a few attornies saying, "you got nothing". Had DO won 50k, I have a feeling you would have said he didn't get enough.

Years ago, I had a situation where I needed an attorney for something AP-related where they were trying to press charges. Some may know who Glen Learner is, a well-known personal injury lawyer in NV. He was a personal friend of my partner at the time, as to why we approached him and his law partner(this was pre, "in wreck get a check"/ The Heavy Hitter, and pre Bob Nersesian being known) After giving them the details, I specifically remember them saying, "We might be able to get the charges down to a year + fines". I was like, what the hell, they should be paying me money. Obviously, I found a different attorney, and all charges were dropped and they gave us money. Legally, I had no doubt that would be the case, but there's always a chance something could go wrong. People are oftentimes looking for back-room paydays, I'm looking to avoid getting back-roomed. If it's a simple backrooming, I'm more inclined to just let it go, as I have in the past. Making a big stick will ensure you can never go back to that casino or others they might become affiliated with.



I take it these types of cases are relatively new to that jurisdiction, he happened to lose, but at some point, someone will no doubt get a big payday, it could have been him. I know firsthand timing is everything. What's that saying... Pioneers often get little but arrows in their backs?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
JohnnyQ
JohnnyQ
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Thanks for this post from:
Hunterhill
May 4th, 2021 at 9:03:49 AM permalink
I have seen situations where I believe a Casino has broken the state regulations in their promotional contests, yet I was able to get the gaming commission to do NOTHING about it.

This kind of verbiage is typical:

"( fill in the blank ) has the responsibility to ensure the integrity of casino gaming ...by licensing, regulating, investigating and enforcing state laws."

Fancy words, but all BS as far as I can see. I thought about getting an attorney, but didn't go any further than that.
STEELY DAN - MY OLD SCHOOL: "California tumbles into the sea; That'll be the day I go back to Annandale; Tried to warn you; About Chino and Daddy Gee" [ Fun Fact: Daddy Gee is G. Gordon Liddy, then the local prosecutor)
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 4th, 2021 at 9:07:15 AM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

I have seen situations where I believe a Casino has broken the state regulations in their promotional contests, yet I was able to get the gaming commission to do NOTHING about it.

This kind of verbiage is typical:

"( fill in the blank ) has the responsibility to ensure the integrity of casino gaming ...by licensing, regulating, investigating and enforcing state laws."

Fancy words, but all BS as far as I can see. I thought about getting an attorney, but didn't go any further than that.

Add this to the KENO EXPLOSION GAFFE? thread as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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May 4th, 2021 at 9:20:44 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

You don't know that, you are saying this after the fact. People have received significant amounts for back-rooming with much less intrusiveness and time spent being detained, even after a few attornies saying, "you got nothing". Had DO won 50k, I have a feeling you would have said he didn't get enough.

Years ago, I had a situation where I needed an attorney for something AP-related where they were trying to press charges. Some may know who Glen Learner is, a well-known personal injury lawyer in NV. He was a personal friend of my partner at the time, as to why we approached him and his law partner(this was pre, "in wreck get a check"/ The Heavy Hitter, and pre Bob Nersesian being known) After giving them the details, I specifically remember them saying, "We might be able to get the charges down to a year + fines". I was like, what the hell, they should be paying me money. Obviously, I found a different attorney, and all charges were dropped and they gave us money. Legally, I had no doubt that would be the case, but there's always a chance something could go wrong. People are oftentimes looking for back-room paydays, I'm looking to avoid getting back-roomed. If it's a simple backrooming, I'm more inclined to just let it go, as I have in the past. Making a big stick will ensure you can never go back to that casino or others they might become affiliated with.



I take it these types of cases are relatively new to that jurisdiction, he happened to lose, but at some point, someone will no doubt get a big payday, it could have been him. I know firsthand timing is everything. What's that saying... Pioneers often get little but arrows in their backs?



I agree with this 100%.

Attorneys on both sides usually believe not only in their case but in their abilities.

It's a all or nothing proposition usually

I will say this for the record.

My attorney has been through many lawsuits and told me she had never gone to a trial. Every lawsuit of this nature had been settled out of court, and the general consensus amongst NY settlement attorneys was that 95% end in settlement after a few years wrangling. The NY court system, she said was particularly notorious for that. I'm going by what she told me. I haven't done any research into it.

This may have left her a bit green in court unfortunately but I believe her expectations were a few years of fighting followed by a reasonable settlement.

It didn't happen in this case

EDIT: To be clear she had been through court trials before but not this type of case. Like most attorneys she handles more than one type of law. Real estate law, contract law, etc.

EDIT EDIT:. A quick lookup confirms the 95% figure that cases get settled out of court.

https://thelawdictionary.org/article/what-percentage-of-lawsuits-settle-before-trial-what-are-some-statistics-on-personal-injury-settlements/
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Wizard
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Wizard
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May 4th, 2021 at 9:41:40 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I can't imagine a six figure judgement with any physical assault.



I know of one in Vegas. No, it's not Grosjean. I'm not allowed to say who or the casino, but as I understand it, he was never assaulted, but they threatened to do so.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Wizard
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Wizard
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May 4th, 2021 at 10:00:27 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I do admire DarkOz’s ‘balls’ in bringing this lawsuit. Not his brains.



Even taking principle out of it, I thought it was a good gamble. Especially with an attorney who worked entirely on contingency. The weekend before the trial, I would have bet on darkoz. I still stuck around NYC after the judge dismissed me and was hoping for a big celebration dinner. Oh well. It was a fun week for me, even though my hotel was way out by JFK. I think I took the A train into Manhattan four or five times and dinked around.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
MDawg
MDawg
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May 4th, 2021 at 10:01:04 AM permalink
In torts: The legal definition of assault involves no contact. The harmful or offensive touching without consent = battery.

If I raise my hands or fists to strike you and you feel threatened, that's assault. If I strike someone or pat a woman on the behind without consent, that is battery.

In crim law: the definitions are more or less the same, but to rise to the level of prosecution, the actions need to be a little more extreme.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.

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