odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
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September 29th, 2020 at 3:05:48 AM permalink
A couple of years ago I watched an onside kick in a college game where it seemed to me the receiving team didn't know that they don't have to wait for the ball to go 10 yards. That restriction is only on the kicking team. 

The football went about 7 yards and was bouncing towards the 10 yard point so slowly that it wasn't clear it was going to make it 10 yards or not, and both teams were just watching to see if it did. I don't remember now if it crossed the line, but I was amazed the receiving team didn't just grab the ball and down it. I felt they were un-coached on what to do, and wrongly thought that they too had to wait for the ball to go that full distance. 


THE FOLLOWING CONTAINS A SPOILER IF YOU RECORDED THE GAME AND HAVEN'T WATCHED IT


Now I'm not so sure. Last night [oops, just watched this now and got confused] *Sunday* at the end of the SNF game the Saints did an onside kick and both teams were waiting for it to go that 10 yards and wouldn't touch it. It went out of bounds without going that distance, untouched by either team while the players just stood over it and watched it. 

To add to the interest of it, in a recent game a new technique for kicking the ball got started, the kicker places the ball 'flat' [if that's the way to say it] and kicks it in a way that makes it spin like crazy. This indeed makes it treacherous to try to field, I have no doubt! This technique was in play in this game.

Additionally, I didn't have the rule right in the first place. I think the rule used to be that the kicking team was just penalized, and kicked again if the ball didn't go the right distance. Now, at least, that is wrong, instead the receiving team is just awarded the ball, and the possible evidence that this is a new rule is shown by the oddly different sized text of the title of "article 7" in the link. Further evidence that it is new is that what actually happened, the ball going out of bounds, is not addressed by the rule in spite of the agonizingly phrased nature of all these rules. How about that, it was left up up to the officials to decide that "goes out of bounds" equals "rolls dead"! [I guess]

I usually find out I was the last guy in the world to know there was a new rule. In the world of sports anyway. It's even possible the rule wasn't what I thought it was back in the day, but I'm telling you, it was expected that the receiving team would pounce on the football first chance they had. 

So! Maybe I owe an apology to that college team, now I'm thinking the coaches tell the receiving team to avoid grabbing the ball if it looks like it won't go 10 yards. I have to say I don't like the change. 

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/kickoff-rules/

PS, here's highlights, go to 13:16 in the video

https://youtu.be/cXqRUDglvcs
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Sep 29, 2020
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
unJon
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September 29th, 2020 at 4:22:37 AM permalink
If the receiving team touches the ball before it goes ten yards, it becomes a live ball. So the kicking team is half hoping the receiving team does that, then a big scrum ensues.

This slow kick is in response to the NFL’s rule change a couple years ago that the kicking team has to be up at the kick line and cannot start running until the ball is kicked. Without that forward momentum of running with the kicker, it is very hard to recover an onside kick, unless the ball is traveling slowly.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
odiousgambit
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September 29th, 2020 at 4:47:34 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

If the receiving team touches the ball before it goes ten yards, it becomes a live ball. So the kicking team is half hoping the receiving team does that, then a big scrum ensues.

This slow kick is in response to the NFL’s rule change a couple years ago that the kicking team has to be up at the kick line and cannot start running until the ball is kicked. Without that forward momentum of running with the kicker, it is very hard to recover an onside kick, unless the ball is traveling slowly.



Pretty sure the kicking team could block too not so long ago, that made it interesting. Need to reread the blocking rules. I hate the idea that they are going in the direction of touch football, again, on this? What's wrong with the old rules, it was exciting and didn't seem excessively unsafe.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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September 29th, 2020 at 6:00:54 AM permalink
Of course usually there's not much action to see if the ball doesn't go 10 yards under the old rules too.

Just watched the replay again. I think it may be that the kicker screwed up. Football was placed on the 35, and he approached from the left and kicked it to the right, but put a clock-wise spin on the ball. So the football crossed the 40 yd line but the spin was tending to keep it from crossing the 45, as you can picture. It finally just spins on its nose, going out of bounds short of the 45

Now, it could be that this is the best way to put the spin, but if so it needs to cross the 40 at a better angle than it got. I really have to think he screwed up, it's kind of new I'm pretty sure.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Sep 29, 2020
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
unJon
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September 29th, 2020 at 6:02:40 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Of course usually there's not much action to see if the ball doesn't go 10 yards under the old rules too.

Just watched the replay again. I think it may be that the kicker screwed up. Football was placed on the 35, and he approached from the left and kicked it to the right, but put a clock-wise spin on the ball. So the football crossed the 40 yd line but the spin was tending to keep it from crossing the 45, as you can picture. It finally just spins on its nose, going out of bounds short of the mark

Now, it could be that this is the best way to put the spin, but if so it needs to cross the 40 at a better angle than it got. I really have to think he screwed up, it's kind of new I'm pretty sure.

Did you see the game the previous week where Dallas successfully recovered this type of onside kick against Atlanta?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
odiousgambit
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September 29th, 2020 at 6:11:08 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Did you see the game the previous week where Dallas successfully recovered this type of onside kick against Atlanta?



no, just now found it, go to 13:34

Ha! Looks to me like the spin on it is designed to take it across the 10 yards!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2bu5qENekY&feature=youtu.be

PS, if you missed it upthread, highlights of Saints/Packers , go to 13:16

https://youtu.be/cXqRUDglvcs
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Sep 29, 2020
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
ThatDonGuy
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September 29th, 2020 at 7:17:46 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Additionally, I didn't have the rule right in the first place. I think the rule used to be that the kicking team was just penalized, and kicked again if the ball didn't go the right distance. Now, at least, that is wrong, instead the receiving team is just awarded the ball, and the possible evidence that this is a new rule is shown by the oddly different sized text of the title of "article 7" in the link. Further evidence that it is new is that what actually happened, the ball going out of bounds, is not addressed by the rule in spite of the agonizingly phrased nature of all these rules. How about that, it was left up up to the officials to decide that "goes out of bounds" equals "rolls dead"! [I guess]


If by "oddly different sized text," you mean that the penalty is listed in bold, this is standard throughout the rulebook, and is the same way in the NCAA and high school football rulebooks as well (it makes it easier for the coaches and officials to see what the penalty is). In "ye olden days," if any kickoff went out of bounds without being touched by the receiving team, the receiving team got the choice of making the other team kick off again with a 5-yard penalty, or take the ball where it went out of bounds. A few years ago, the penalty was removed (probably to speed up the game), and the receiving team now has the choice of taking the ball where it went out of bounds or 25 yards away from where the kickoff took place (30 yards if the kickoff was because of a safety).

"Rolls dead" and "goes out of bounds" do not mean the same thing. "Rolls dead" (actually, the term in the rulebook is "comes to rest") means the ball is still inbounds when it comes to a stop. This is usually more important in punts, as it prevents the kicking team that has a small lead late in the game from punting, surrounding the ball, and preventing the receiving team from recovering it to stop the clock.
billryan
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September 29th, 2020 at 7:40:18 AM permalink
I don't like the changes to the onside rule, at all. It used to be one of the most exciting plays in football, what with being able to stack a side of the field. Now it is very vanilla and rarely succeeds. I have no idea why they messed with it. It wasn't like the old kickoffs where guys had forty plus yards to build up speed and momentum before crashing into a wedge.
It's been almost forty years since I played football and the many rules they finetuned mostly make sense to me, but this is one I don't understand.
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unJon
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September 29th, 2020 at 7:46:39 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I don't like the changes to the onside rule, at all. It used to be one of the most exciting plays in football, what with being able to stack a side of the field. Now it is very vanilla and rarely succeeds. I have no idea why they messed with it. It wasn't like the old kickoffs where guys had forty plus yards to build up speed and momentum before crashing into a wedge.
It's been almost forty years since I played football and the many rules they finetuned mostly make sense to me, but this is one I don't understand.



Agreed. I wouldn’t be surprised if the competition committee rethinks the onside kick rules this offseason.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
odiousgambit
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September 29th, 2020 at 8:18:56 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy


If by "oddly different sized text," you mean that the penalty is listed in bold, this is standard throughout the rulebook, and is the same way in the NCAA and high school football rulebooks as well (it makes it easier for the coaches and officials to see what the penalty is).

I am referring to the link, in which, starting at article 7, the font and size change

Quote:

In "ye olden days," if any kickoff went out of bounds without being touched by the receiving team, the receiving team got the choice of making the other team kick off again with a 5-yard penalty, or take the ball where it went out of bounds. A few years ago, the penalty was removed (probably to speed up the game), and the receiving team now has the choice of taking the ball where it went out of bounds or 25 yards away from where the kickoff took place (30 yards if the kickoff was because of a safety).

Sounds right

Quote:

"Rolls dead" and "goes out of bounds" do not mean the same thing. "Rolls dead" (actually, the term in the rulebook is "comes to rest")

that may be, however the link is from NFL.com and uses the language "rolls dead" . I did assume they would not be changing things from what is in the official rulebook. On the NFL.com page, article 7, it says nothing about rolling out of bounds, which is likely to happen as we all know

here's that link again

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/kickoff-rules/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
ThatDonGuy
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Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambit
September 29th, 2020 at 11:40:47 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I am referring to the link, in which, starting at article 7, the font and size change


I see what you are talking about. It looks like the change was made to reflect when that particular rule was added in 2018, and the 2018 rules do, in fact, say "rolls dead."

Rule 6-7 has been removed (apparently in 2019) and replaced by new rule 6-1-4(e):
"If the ball comes to rest anywhere on the field, and no player attempts to possess it, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the receiving team at the dead-ball spot."

Click on the "View Official Rule" button just below the photo on the linked page to see the current rule.
Or, just click here to see it.
Vegasrider
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September 29th, 2020 at 6:38:48 PM permalink
You would think if you play the game, you would know the rules and how to play. Sound familiar? No different than playing a table game or VP, know the rules and know how to play. You just can’t fix stupid. Or its like driving, know the laws and know how to drive.
billryan
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September 29th, 2020 at 6:44:44 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

You would think if you play the game, you would know the rules and how to play. Sound familiar? No different than playing a table game or VP, know the rules and know how to play. You just can’t fix stupid. Or its like driving, know the laws and know how to drive.



Football is a game of specialists. I wouldn't expect an offensive lineman to know the rules on pass interference.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Vegasrider
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September 29th, 2020 at 7:02:00 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Football is a game of specialists. I wouldn't expect an offensive lineman to know the rules on pass interference.



Well, if you are on special teams, that is your specialty, so you should know the rules. But in reality, that comes down to coaching, just bad coaching.
billryan
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September 29th, 2020 at 7:25:00 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Well, if you are on special teams, that is your specialty, so you should know the rules. But in reality, that comes down to coaching, just bad coaching.




Winner, Winner! Chicken Dinner!
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odiousgambit
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September 30th, 2020 at 3:47:39 AM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Well, if you are on special teams, that is your specialty, so you should know the rules. But in reality, that comes down to coaching, just bad coaching.

You've lost me a little bit, are you talking about Dallas recovering the kick, that this should not have happened?

If it is about putting the correct spin on the ball, and Dallas getting it right, and Saints not, that's my contention, and it's on the coaching, yes. Or one kicker fouled it up by mistake.

I started to question myself, am I right that a clockwise spin makes a ball move to the right? What are the physics of that? To check myself I checked out English in Billiards. The 'stop' and 'follow' spins are intuitive, but the other spins needed confirmation for me anyway. So the link does show that "left english", which would make the ball spin clockwise from overhead perspective, does what I thought, stating "it will travel ... slightly to the right".

https://www.pooldawg.com/article/pooldawg-library/understanding-the-english-of-a-cue-ball

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Vegasrider
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September 30th, 2020 at 7:44:18 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

You've lost me a little bit, are you talking about Dallas recovering the kick, that this should not have happened?





Correct, Atlanta players had an opportunity to fall on the ball as it slowly approached 10 yards. It was not a hot potato. The kicking team must wait for the ball to travel 10 yards but the receiving team does not. The players who are on the receiving ends of onside kicks are also players that have good hands, meaning they are players who handle the ball such as running backs, wide receivers, etc.
odiousgambit
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September 30th, 2020 at 3:25:28 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider


Correct, Atlanta players had an opportunity to fall on the ball as it slowly approached 10 yards. It was not a hot potato. The kicking team must wait for the ball to travel 10 yards but the receiving team does not. The players who are on the receiving ends of onside kicks are also players that have good hands, meaning they are players who handle the ball such as running backs, wide receivers, etc.

I was able to watch a the whole game of Saints/Packers so I got a real good view of the onside kick, could do it in slo-mo and all that. It's really clear the english that was put on the ball is wrong for the angle the kick was made.

I think you might have to have to forgive the Falcons, the idea seems to be new and it may be a matter of luck that the one kick was done at the right angle and the right english and the other not.

As far as the coaching, it does seem that they would tell the receiving team to get that ball when it goes about 9 yards and quit hoping to just get lucky
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
billryan
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September 30th, 2020 at 3:31:23 PM permalink
I was never involved with recieving an onside kick but was on the field for many a fumble and let me say a football goes every which way except the way you think it will. The few onside kicks I was on the kicking team, my job was simply to wipe out anyone on the other team in the path of the ball.
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odiousgambit
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October 8th, 2020 at 5:18:13 AM permalink
NFL week 4 had several onside kicks, 7 where surprise was not possible, unless I missed one. 7 may or may not be the grand total as well. If I can I'll try to keep this thread going with new ones next week. Checking the links out after posting.


I swear I get the feeling the special teams coaches are not all on top of their game. In my mind they should be all studying how Dallas pulled off one in their first win, yet this does not seem to be happening. Maybe this is a case of me being a smartass fan thinking he knows more than the coaches, yeah, 'probably' might be the word to use, but I offer these videos and .... you tell me!


Always these things are harder than you think, plus kicker has to be good at it, but I give them a grade. The links are set to go at the right time. I recommend you go into settings and change the speed to 0.25


Jaguars vs Bengals, looks like the ball is laid flat but why kick it hard and straight? Sure way to avoid criticism that the ball didn't go 10 yards? C-


https://youtu.be/pbjFUxemfXk?t=684


Seattle vs Dolphins ... looks like the ball is tee-ed up and is kicked normally and too hard. What's the excuse? F


https://youtu.be/hY4A_VRuyag?t=671


Washingon vs Ravens ... ball tee-ed up and bounced off the ground, gave the kicking a chance in the old way it was done. B-


https://youtu.be/xchQh9ZEB9Q?t=488


Bills vs Raiders ... looks to me like the newest ball-laid-flat-make-it-spin technique here done well enough 'maybe'. I 'think' the correct english is put on the ball! Possibly the Bills player who recovered before the ball went 10 was going to make the right play no matter. A- [well, A+ not possible unless kickers recover the ball]


https://youtu.be/Px6DGYx7DK0?t=608


Colts vs Bears ... ball is not tee-ed up but not laid flat either. Check it out. Kicking team had a chance, might need to see more attempts with this technique. B


https://youtu.be/KK0KPyU92D0?t=485


Eagles vs 49ers ... A drop kick! Absolutely the first time I've seen that since Flutie kicked one for an extra point, and that had been the only time I've seen it before in a game. Clearly some thought went into that and again we might need to see more attempts. Execution was bad this time, but can't flunk them due to "they're trying" ... C+


https://youtu.be/qAZj4vQRleo?t=763


Saved Browns vs Dallas for last... OK, maybe they should get a better grade than I give them, but I am in disbelief that they screwed this up. Ball laid flat and spin-kicked but kicking team had no chance. It shows that their previous success was due to sheer luck, this really says they learned nothing. There is a possible point that maybe you don't want to do it the same way each time, but I think you have to remember that the kick in the circumstances is just not going to be a surprise, forget that! F


https://youtu.be/KzFSeeTKZLQ?t=841
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
ThatDonGuy
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October 8th, 2020 at 6:39:52 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Eagles vs 49ers ... A drop kick! Absolutely the first time I've seen that since Flutie kicked one for an extra point, and that had been the only time I've seen it before in a game. Clearly some thought went into that and again we might need to see more attempts. Execution was bad this time, but can't flunk them due to "they're trying" ... C+


It looks like the ball is kicked before it touches the ground, which, technically, makes it a punt - and, if you go by a strict reading of the NFL rules, is illegal on a kickoff if it isn't after a safety.

The things you learn: until I just looked it up, I didn't know that, at least in the NFL, on a kickoff after a safety, you're not allowed to use a kicking tee. Presumably, that's why it is usually punted.
odiousgambit
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October 8th, 2020 at 7:13:46 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

It looks like the ball is kicked before it touches the ground, which, technically, makes it a punt - and, if you go by a strict reading of the NFL rules, is illegal on a kickoff if it isn't after a safety.

The things you learn: until I just looked it up, I didn't know that, at least in the NFL, on a kickoff after a safety, you're not allowed to use a kicking tee. Presumably, that's why it is usually punted.

You're right, it does look like an illegal punt in slo-mo. I watched it live, and maybe influenced by knowing you can't punt it legally, assumed it was a drop-kick. A drop kick was intended and he botched it? It still *sort of* looks like a drop-k to me and must have to the officials?

I don't remember a thing about a flag being thrown, but if it was the result of the play would have been the decision
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Vegasrider
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October 8th, 2020 at 1:36:57 PM permalink
Remember, they changed the rules for onside kicks a couple of years ago, making even harder to recover it for the kicking teams. No more running starts before the kick.
odiousgambit
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October 8th, 2020 at 2:57:29 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Remember, they changed the rules for onside kicks a couple of years ago, making even harder to recover it for the kicking teams. No more running starts before the kick.

oh yeah, I think this is why we are seeing experimentation
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Joeman
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October 9th, 2020 at 7:43:32 AM permalink
They also limited the number of players to 5 on either side of the kicker 10 or so years ago. They used to line up the whole team to one side.

As far as the successful kicks like the Cowboys/Falcons play in Week 2, I'm thinking that some of these 'experimental' onside kicks are catching some coaches off-guard. I'm sure that by now, every special teams coach has drawn up a defense against the 'spinning/no tee' kick.
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odiousgambit
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October 9th, 2020 at 9:13:54 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

They also limited the number of players to 5 on either side of the kicker 10 or so years ago. They used to line up the whole team to one side.

As far as the successful kicks like the Cowboys/Falcons play in Week 2, I'm thinking that some of these 'experimental' onside kicks are catching some coaches off-guard. I'm sure that by now, every special teams coach has drawn up a defense against the 'spinning/no tee' kick.

In my thinking, not much to do out of the ordinary, but:

*once the ball is placed 'flat'* the receiving team should expect a kick towards the side lines, with no guarantee that'll be the case

*the receiving team should now know to pounce on the ball at around 8 yards, not waiting to see if it might fail going 10. However, the kicking team should be waiting for just that, this pounce before 10, since now they can also pounce.

* to say 'not tee-ed up' might not describe it? 'Flat' is a dissatisfying word to use, but ...
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Oct 9, 2020
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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October 15th, 2020 at 4:36:36 AM permalink
NFL Week 5. Did anyone have the Dolphins? What happened there? Anyway, getting to the not-a-surprise end-of-game onside kicks, there was only one unless I missed something. Giving a grade again, you can give me your grade if you will. 


Panthers vs Falcons.......... There were only 4 seconds left, but the Falcons needing a touchdown tried an onside kick anyway. I was wondering if they just want to practice the onside kick! But then only second only came off the clock! So definitely a Hail Mary was possible if they had recovered the kick. When does the clock start? I knew when the kick goes into the end zone and the receiving team just wants it on the 25, no time goes off the clock. So it seems the clock started when the receiving team touched the ball in this case. Now, I think it was some hometown clock-minding to take only one second off, on the other hand I think taking all 4 seconds off to end the game would have been wrong too. Hmmm. 


Anyway, looks like the ball was laid flat and this time the technique was to kick a spinning ball but let it bounce too. A Panther was just at the right spot to recover when the ball zips across the line, luckily or unluckily depending on your view. I can't tell if the correct English is on the ball but it seems so considering how it went in. Wish I had a better look, but without it, giving a good grade for the kicking team_ A 


https://youtu.be/AGiR5xiWSN8?t=659
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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October 18th, 2020 at 1:54:05 PM permalink
I just saw a player on the kicking team very flagrantly block someone between the restraining lines on the receiving team during an onside kick. The Eagles were attempting one against the Ravens. No flag was thrown.
Quote:

Article 1. Blocking

Item 1. Kicking Team.

Between the Restraining Lines...
Prior to the ball being legally touched, a kicking team player may not block or use his hands or arms against an opponent between the restraining lines, except to push or pull aside a receiver who is actively attempting to obstruct his attempt to proceed

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-video-rulebook/kickoff-rules/

so
* the referees don't know the new rules either
or
* it was deemed to be "a push" since the Ravens player was obstructing access to the ball. This is actually possibly why a flag was not thrown, I don't know, but I have to say it was quite a 'push', knocking the player on his butt.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
billryan
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October 18th, 2020 at 2:27:33 PM permalink
If the player is directly in line between the defender and the loose ball, he should be fair game. Everyone should be entitled to an unobstructed shot at a free ball. I'e no idea what the rules now say, but that's how it should be.
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odiousgambit
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October 21st, 2020 at 4:40:23 AM permalink
Week 6:

Four not-a-surprise-end-of-game onside kicks. I'm giving 2 grades this time, one for the plan, and another for the execution, let me know your grades if you like. 

Starting with the interesting and previously mentioned upthread Ravens vs Eagles onside kick, with a good view of that 'push'. I have to say that looks like a player playing it like it used to be played, with the first arriving kicking team players able to block and create havoc. However, as mentioned upthread, he avoided a penalty perhaps because the player he blocked was in his way if he was to recover the ball. I'm not convinced he even knew that, see what you think. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmlCqeI2jdA&feature=youtu.be&t=816


Staying with this, I'd say this kick had a good chance of working in the old style. It was tee-ed up and kicked opposite the expected direction, bouncing off the turf and definitely going 10. Something, though, didn't go right. From what I can tell, the Eagles plan was that the ball was going to also land closer to the sidelines, the players are all heading there. What is #47 doing? He and #49 have the only chance of recovering the ball. #49 has to go through a Ravens player, does so whether or not he even saw the ball, but the evidently surprised Raven has the ball bounce off his rear end - he also does not seem to ever see it - it then gets recovered by #11 of the Ravens. Eagles #47 however could have immediately clobbered him and possibly caused a fumble, however he has no idea where the ball is, I guess, and instead does a great job of getting away from the action.

If the plan was for the kick to go further towards the sideline, which is what I think it was, was this a mistake?  This degree of trying to fine tune where the ball is going to go might be considered necessary in order to have a chance of success. That it did not go that far might explain a lot, including why #47 failed to see the ball (but what was he doing?) ........... Plan B-, execution D


Falcons vs. Vikings. There were two such kicks! The once-burned Falcons now know they don't have to wait for the ball to go 10 yds and foil the first kick by catching the ball before any Vikings can get there. The ball is tee-ed up and given a bounce off the turf. This bounce is insufficient and makes the recovery too easy..... Plan B-, execution D-


https://youtu.be/eiFsqXSLxVU?t=611

Cont. The ball is tee-ed up again on the next try but just kicked straight ahead; I guess the ball is supposed to hang in the air better? How do you do that? I don't like to see this type of attempt at all but would give it a better grade if I saw anyone ever execute it well.....  Plan D, execution F


https://youtu.be/eiFsqXSLxVU?t=667

Washington vs Giants. I recorded this game myself and can watch the onside kick in slo-mo. Washington tries a new technique. Kicker lays the ball partly on the ground and partly on the tee. The kick is such that the ball spins wildly and heads towards the sidelines. As best as I can tell, unfortunately it is the wrong spin that has been put on the ball for where it is kicked and it has no chance to go 10 yards and the Giants recover. So maybe we go back to "smartass fan thinks he knows better than the pros" ; but I have to ask, considering the effect that one type of 'english' has and what effect the other type has, is this just being ignored? Or is the plan that the ball would be kicked less obliquely in order for it to quickly go 10 yds only and hang around the 10 yd mark? If so I think this is expecting too much finesse and after all the Cowboys famously succeeded in doing the opposite spin, why not imitate that? And, yes, I think it is possible they don't quite know what they are doing, sorry. Not being sure makes it hard to grade the plan, but here goes......... Plan C, execution D-


https://youtu.be/WYoPe8Eublk?t=744
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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October 28th, 2020 at 12:44:27 PM permalink
We finally get an onside kick recovery in week 7! Texans pull it off against Packers


It looks to me that the ball was tee-ed up but kicked end over end; it continues to have erratic spin until recovered. That it is kicked straight ahead seems to surprise the Packers players, and the speed it is going is just right so that the Texans are following right behind it. I believe the kicker gives the ball another kick at the point where the Packers were about to fall on it, allowing the Texans to recover it instead. Be sure to continue watching to see what happens next. 


For grading the kick, I am going to assume that everything the Texan kicker did was intentional. Plan A, execution A+


https://youtu.be/PWJmLMoy3zQ?t=540
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DRich
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October 28th, 2020 at 12:55:30 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

We finally get an onside kick recovery in week 7! Texans pull it off against Packers


It looks to me that the ball was tee-ed up but kicked end over end; it continues to have erratic spin until recovered. That it is kicked straight ahead seems to surprise the Packers players, and the speed it is going is just right so that the Texans are following right behind it. I believe the kicker gives the ball another kick at the point where the Packers were about to fall on it, allowing the Texans to recover it instead. Be sure to continue watching to see what happens next. 


For grading the kick, I am going to assume that everything the Texan kicker did was intentional. Plan A, execution A+


https://youtu.be/PWJmLMoy3zQ?t=540



That was a fantastic play.
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unJon
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Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambit
October 28th, 2020 at 1:10:31 PM permalink
Just posting to say I really enjoy this thread.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
smoothgrh
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Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambit
October 28th, 2020 at 2:03:20 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Just posting to say I really enjoy this thread.



I concur. I love sports oddities!
odiousgambit
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November 6th, 2020 at 1:08:44 PM permalink
Week 8:


49ers vs Seahawks had an onside kick; looks like the ball was laid flat and kicked with a clockwise spin, though hard to tell on that . The ball doesn't respond much to the English on it in any case ... evidently due to being kicked too softly? The angle is also too much towards the 5 yd mark.  Olsen wasn't waiting for any further developments, able to fall on it while the kicking team could not.  For a grade I am assuming the spin on the ball made sense. Plan A, Execution C-
https://youtu.be/9B45wdu4M2E?t=773


Cowboys vs Eagles had something I've not seen before, and it caught some players not knowing the rules [evidently]. The Cowboys get an intentional safety called on them in order to do an onside kick, needing 2 touchdowns no matter the effect of the 2 pts. After a safety the ball must be punted 10 yds and they decide to punt it high in the air; maybe they counted on the Eagles players not knowing they could call for a fair catch, which turned out to be the case. Should they have had the kicker do a tumbling kick that would go just 10+ yds because of the fair catch rule? I think they'll have to next time as everyone will know now this is how the Eagles goofed, making it a close call. A Cowboy is the first to get his hands on it but can't find the handle. For grading I'll have to assume all was intentional with no demerits for gambling on Eagle savvy. Plan A, Execution A
https://youtu.be/AeXPKSJRbzY?t=746
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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November 12th, 2020 at 1:43:55 PM permalink
Week 9


Texans vs Jaguars .............. The Jaguars do an onside kick and use the drop kick method, which I am starting to think is not a bad way to go. Not that I have seen a successful one. This one could have had more tumbling action but instead goes 10 yds too quickly and is an easy recovery for the Texans.Grades: Plan A-, Execution D+
https://youtu.be/7VqrRatSBpk?t=702




Panthers vs Chiefs ........................ Panthers need to get the ball back and it looks to me like the ball is laid flat for an onside kick. From what I can tell the spin that is put on the ball has the correct english and the ball suddenly makes a turn that could have made it go from 8 yds to 10 yds quickly, but the receiving team just plays it well, recovering it before it can go 10 yds. With the surprise of this kind of kick gone, execution is getting harder.  Plan A, Execution C
https://youtu.be/3imGBLYj_lc?t=667


Steelers vs Cowboys.......................... There was no onside kick but when the Steelers were behind, Romo as I remember was wondering if there was going to be one just as the 4th quarter just started; and they weren't that far behind. As it turned out, the kick, towards the corner, was just short enough to not allow a touchback. Romo declared it to be an intentional "pooch kick".  If it was intentional apparently "it is the aim of the kicking team to get the ball in their hands" by increasing the likelihood that the kick is not handled well, see second link. If the idea is to avoid the good ball handlers, on this one the ball was kicked too far and it turns out to be a disaster. I have to wonder why they were trying anything at this phase of the game; perhaps it was just a bad kick, Pittsburgh definitely was having some problems with their kicking game.  Plan C-, Execution F
https://youtu.be/HrFL4gDa9KU?t=592
https://www.liveabout.com/about-football-glossary-pooch-kick-1334033
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Joeman
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November 12th, 2020 at 2:09:26 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Week 9


Texans vs Jaguars .............. The Jaguars do an onside kick and use the drop kick method, which I am starting to think is not a bad way to go. Not that I have seen a successful one. This one could have had more tumbling action but instead goes 10 yds too quickly and is an easy recovery for the Texans.Grades: Plan A-, Execution D+

This kick was actually the second attempt for the Jaguars. I immediately prior to this kick, they lined up for, and seemingly kicked an onside kick, but the Texans had called a timeout at the last second.

The kick that didn't count was much better than the one that did. It had lots of spin and "English," and took longer to travel the requisite 10 yards. There's no telling whether it would have been recovered by the Jags if the play was allowed to continue, but they would have had a much better chance than they did with the kick that counted.
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redietz
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November 12th, 2020 at 8:59:25 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Week 8:


49ers vs Seahawks had an onside kick; looks like the ball was laid flat and kicked with a clockwise spin, though hard to tell on that . The ball doesn't respond much to the English on it in any case ... evidently due to being kicked too softly? The angle is also too much towards the 5 yd mark.  Olsen wasn't waiting for any further developments, able to fall on it while the kicking team could not.  For a grade I am assuming the spin on the ball made sense. Plan A, Execution C-
https://youtu.be/9B45wdu4M2E?t=773


Cowboys vs Eagles had something I've not seen before, and it caught some players not knowing the rules [evidently]. The Cowboys get an intentional safety called on them in order to do an onside kick, needing 2 touchdowns no matter the effect of the 2 pts. After a safety the ball must be punted 10 yds and they decide to punt it high in the air; maybe they counted on the Eagles players not knowing they could call for a fair catch, which turned out to be the case. Should they have had the kicker do a tumbling kick that would go just 10+ yds because of the fair catch rule? I think they'll have to next time as everyone will know now this is how the Eagles goofed, making it a close call. A Cowboy is the first to get his hands on it but can't find the handle. For grading I'll have to assume all was intentional with no demerits for gambling on Eagle savvy. Plan A, Execution A
https://youtu.be/AeXPKSJRbzY?t=746



I just wanted to add that I've watched probably 20 college games every Saturday and probably 80% of all NFL games for the last 40 years, and I had never seen the onside attempt made by the Cowboys via a short punt.
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odiousgambit
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November 13th, 2020 at 2:26:12 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Quote: odiousgambit

Week 9 Texans vs Jaguars ..............

This kick was actually the second attempt for the Jaguars. I immediately prior to this kick, they lined up for, and seemingly kicked an onside kick, but the Texans had called a timeout at the last second.

The kick that didn't count was much better than the one that did. It had lots of spin and "English," and took longer to travel the requisite 10 yards. There's no telling whether it would have been recovered by the Jags if the play was allowed to continue, but they would have had a much better chance than they did with the kick that counted.

Too bad the highlights don't have that; it shows how much variance the kicker produces with each particular kick.

Quote: redietz

Quote: odiousgambit

Week 8:


I just wanted to add that I've watched probably 20 college games every Saturday and probably 80% of all NFL games for the last 40 years, and I had never seen the onside attempt made by the Cowboys via a short punt.

Me neither, must have been in the playbook and never used. I still wonder if they counted on the Eagles doing no fair catch.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DRich
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November 13th, 2020 at 7:39:48 AM permalink
Quote: redietz






I just wanted to add that I've watched probably 20 college games every Saturday and probably 80% of all NFL games for the last 40 years, and I had never seen the onside attempt made by the Cowboys via a short punt.



I remember the Lions doing it about 5 years ago.

I probably watch close to 20 college games each week but there is no way I could sit through 25 NFL games each week, that would bore me to death.
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unJon
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November 13th, 2020 at 8:47:13 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I remember the Lions doing it about 5 years ago.

I probably watch close to 20 college games each week but there is no way I could sit through 25 NFL games each week, that would bore me to death.



There are never more than 16 NFL games a week.
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Joeman
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November 13th, 2020 at 9:01:25 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I probably watch close to 20 college games each week.

Wow, that's dedication! I may watch a total of 6 or 7 games a week (college & pros), and Mrs. Joeman still calls herself a football widow.

Assuming there are games Tu-F evenings, and 4 time slots for games on Saturday, that makes a max of 8 college games a week viewable live on a single TV. Do you channel surf between games going on at the same time, or do you have a multiple TV setup (I did this a few times back in my single days)? Or do you go to a sports bar/book?
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Joeman
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November 13th, 2020 at 9:08:01 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Too bad the highlights don't have that; it shows how much variance the kicker produces with each particular kick.

Yeah, as I was watching it, I couldn't decide if the kicker screwed up the second kick, or if they intentionally went with "Plan B" to try a different style of kick since they already showed the Texans their "Plan A." As you have documented here, the element of surprise seems to be key to successfully recovering a kick.
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DRich
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November 13th, 2020 at 10:51:26 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

There are never more than 16 NFL games a week.



LOL!! You are of course correct. I was thinking the number of teams.
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DRich
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November 13th, 2020 at 10:53:10 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Wow, that's dedication! I may watch a total of 6 or 7 games a week (college & pros), and Mrs. Joeman still calls herself a football widow.

Assuming there are games Tu-F evenings, and 4 time slots for games on Saturday, that makes a max of 8 college games a week viewable live on a single TV. Do you channel surf between games going on at the same time, or do you have a multiple TV setup (I did this a few times back in my single days)? Or do you go to a sports bar/book?



I record just about every game that is on TV that I am not watching and watch them later in the week. Sadly my system only has 5 tuners so I can only record four while I am watching a game.
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odiousgambit
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November 25th, 2020 at 12:19:01 PM permalink
week 10: didn't take the time to view game endings, did we miss anything good?


week 11: Eagles vs Broncos...........The Eagles need the ball back after a touchdown with 30 seconds left on the clock and try an onside kick. The kicker uses the drop-kick and it is just kicked too hard and Broncos recover easily. 


https://youtu.be/MdPu85u0oZc?t=824
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
gordonm888
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November 26th, 2020 at 9:24:36 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I record just about every game that is on TV that I am not watching and watch them later in the week. Sadly my system only has 5 tuners so I can only record four while I am watching a game.



It is more efficient to record as many as you can and watch them all on DVR so you can fast forward through all the commercials. Football in general, and NFL football in particular has an extraordinary amount of deadtime.

I think you can also subscribe to NFL channel and be able to stream all games free of commercial breaks.
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DRich
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November 26th, 2020 at 10:27:13 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

It is more efficient to record as many as you can and watch them all on DVR so you can fast forward through all the commercials. Football in general, and NFL football in particular has an extraordinary amount of deadtime.

I think you can also subscribe to NFL channel and be able to stream all games free of commercial breaks.



I don't mind commercials when watching live programming but I always skip them when recorded.
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odiousgambit
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December 1st, 2020 at 1:49:24 PM permalink
I'm probably not going to take the time to review week 12 or 13, and when I do get back to it, just show exceptional ones

Week 12's Titan's versus Colts has to be seen. Ball was teed up and kicked high, and one receiving team player is the only one who knew where the ball was and scores a touchdown.

Of course this gets F, F, as who's idea was that?

https://youtu.be/a4F3jvnga0U?t=679
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Joeman
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December 1st, 2020 at 1:57:43 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

I'm probably not going to take the time to review week 12 or 13, and when I do get back to it, just show exceptional ones

Week 12's Titan's versus Colts has to be seen. Ball was teed up and kicked high, and one receiving team player is the only one who knew where the ball was and scores a touchdown.

Of course this gets F, F, as who's idea was that?

Yep, that was about as bad as it can get.

I think my favorite play in all of football is when an onside kick is returned for a TD. I remember seeing Jason Sehorn run one back for the Giants back in the day. I would imagine that it has happened since then, but it is very rare.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"

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