racquet
racquet
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September 16th, 2020 at 11:35:53 AM permalink
I've always felt that only in hockey is there a need to be in-person at the event. Otherwise you get a better viewing experience from home, with the advent of inexpensive cameras to record the action in real time, along with improvements in slow motion and replay.

In fact, in front of a television screen you actually get a BETTER appreciation for the game, with constant instant replay, multiple angles and analysis that you lose when sitting in a seat at the stadium. Factor in travel time and the expense of a ticket along with parking and the outrageous cost of food...

...it's just not worth it.

Not to mention the expense of upkeep, debt service, security details, traffic control, and on and on, often the responsibility of a state or municipal government (i.e. taxpayers). Often a new stadium comes into being because of the team owner's ability to blackmail said government, and the political hacks involved only interested in scoring luxury box seating for themselves, their relatives and friends.

All that being said, a brand new stadium is being inaugurated... with no fans in the seats. Will fans ever be allowed back as they were in the past? Cheek-by-cheek, tailgating in the parking lot, jammed onto highways and trekking into the place like pilgrims on a haj?

My enjoyment of NHL, NBA and NFL games suffer not a bit form no fans in stadiums that I would never visit. I watched the NFL this weekend just like I have been watching most of my life - with a clicker, a refrigerator, a microwave oven and a single-use restroom within a few feet. Piped-in crown noise along with blurry images of supposed live bodies in the stands no different, from my perspective, than any other time in the past.

Robert Kraft loses money on ticket and game-day sales, on-site. But so much of the money of his sport is based on things that have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his team plays in a very expensive patch of imported turf, if all of the rest of his income were assured, with a matching support of fans who buy licensed merchandise from his team, I wonder if the actual cost of the physical stadium is at best a wash?

What's the capacity of the new Las Vegas stadum? Anybody want to bet whether or not it's ever, even once in the future, sold out?
billryan
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September 16th, 2020 at 11:52:20 AM permalink
When things return to normal, I expect the Vegas stadium will sell out for big games. I can't imagine a Raider playoff game not selling out. I also envision a Wrestlemania type event, and possibly even a few concerts.
I can't enjoy sports nearly as much without a crowd. For example- I went down to my clubhouse on Sunday and watched the Vikings-Packers game. There were two people there playing pool but no one was paying any attention to the game. For Monday nights Giants game, there were enough people that we showed it on two screens to keep the social distance thing going. The giant game was more enjoyable even though my team got killed.
Wierd digression- One of the sets was a fraction of a second slower than the other.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
rdw4potus
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September 16th, 2020 at 11:59:12 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I can't imagine a Raider playoff game not selling out.



I can't imagine a Raider playoff game:-)
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
ThatDonGuy
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September 16th, 2020 at 12:04:36 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

What's the capacity of the new Las Vegas stadum? Anybody want to bet whether or not it's ever, even once in the future, sold out?


The "official" capacity is 65,000, and I expect it to be sold out at least once every eight years - say what you want about the Cowboys, but they bring in the crowd. In Oakland's weaker days, I think it had three sellouts - the Cowboys, the 49ers, and the game where it was rumored (correctly) that it would be Jerry Rice's last home game as a Raider.
I also expect quite a few games against the Rams or Chargers, and maybe the Cardinals as well, to sell out, as the visiting team's fans can drive to the stadium.

As for attending games, I am the same way as you - I enjoy it much better with people who have some idea what they are doing explaning things as they happen. However, for some people, nothing beats the "being there in person" experience - especially with younger kids in tow.
PokerGrinder
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September 16th, 2020 at 12:08:43 PM permalink
I’m Canadian so we love hockey but in person NHL is much better than on tv. There is no bad seat in the arena and the game is so much faster live. It’s a totally different experience. NFL is cool live but I think it’s a better experience on tv. Baseball is great both live and on tv and NBA is better live imo.
You can shear a sheep a hundred times, but you can skin it only once. — Amarillo Slim Preston
billryan
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September 16th, 2020 at 12:16:59 PM permalink
At the old Yankee Stadium, there was something almost spiritual when 55,000plus fans rose in unison in anticipation of a big moment.
The only thing that's come close is the group energy at the climax of a Grateful Dead show. I've been to hundreds of NFL games over the last fifty years, including NFC Championship games and I've never felt that same energy.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
SOOPOO
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September 16th, 2020 at 12:29:43 PM permalink
Went to hundreds of Mets games as a kid. A few Knicks games. A few Nets games. Many Islanders games, including their playoff games in their first Stanley Cup Championship. Bills season ticket holder during Super Bowl years and next two decades after. Sabres season ticket holder until last few years. Been to a few PGA tour golf tournaments. Plus some local NCAA Basketball games.

The energy in the stadium for a home Bills game is worth the price of admission. The view from the stands of a hockey game is so much better than what you see on TV.

Baseball is so naturally boring for 150ish of the 162 games, that the excitement of the few good Red Sox-Yankees games is drowned out by the mid May Padres-Brewers game......

Basketball is somewhere between hockey and baseball.

Bottom line..... if they let fans back they will come.... Las Vegas Raiders will sell out ALL home games next year if there are no restrictions by then.
DRich
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September 16th, 2020 at 12:37:02 PM permalink
Quote: racquet


What's the capacity of the new Las Vegas stadum? Anybody want to bet whether or not it's ever, even once in the future, sold out?



I will take that bet for the maximum you can afford. I bet that the stadium will sell out at least once.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
billryan
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September 16th, 2020 at 12:42:43 PM permalink
When the Yankees were really bad in the late 1980s, my friends Dad gave us his corporate box seats for the opener. It wasn't sold out but it was pretty packed and the energy was great. The guy in the box next to us offered us tickets for game two at half price so we bought them. Opening Day was a Monday day game, and game two was two days later. Really great weather for April in NYC but only about 15,000 showed up and the crowd around us was particularly sparse. The contrast between the two games was amazing.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AZDuffman
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September 16th, 2020 at 1:23:25 PM permalink
I have graduated from caring about sports but some observations from when I did.

As to hockey, that one is really better in person and not nearly as good on TV. Football you get more of the game seeing it in person as long as you know an understand the game. It is why scouts actually go to the game and do not watch it on TV.

There is an energy in being with the crowd. For this reason people go to bars to watch big games. The sports book at my local casino has enough energy during the biggest games they could power the casino if they could hook up a generator to it.

Players play better with a crowd. Even a hostile crowd. In I think it was the Memphis Oilers were not getting 20,000 a game until the Steelers fans filled the place. It was a de facto Steeler home crowd. Even the Oilers said they did better with the energy in the stadium.

Stadiums are not going away because "there is no use for them." They might be past their peak size as more fans do decide to stay home because of the crazy high cost. We do have an issue of people hanging in the luxury areas dimly aware the game is going on. But no, we are not going to have Studio Football anytime soon.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Joeman
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September 16th, 2020 at 1:45:17 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

The "official" capacity is 65,000, and I expect it to be sold out at least once every eight years - say what you want about the Cowboys, but they bring in the crowd. In Oakland's weaker days, I think it had three sellouts - the Cowboys, the 49ers, and the game where it was rumored (correctly) that it would be Jerry Rice's last home game as a Raider.
I also expect quite a few games against the Rams or Chargers, and maybe the Cardinals as well, to sell out, as the visiting team's fans can drive to the stadium.

I think you can add the Packers and Steelers to your list. Probably the Chiefs as well.

Also, for all fans that think about going to one of their team's away games, I bet the Raiders are now at the top of the list for most! I'm already planning my trip to see the Jaguars visit the Raiders in 2025! ;)

I'm curious if LV will have their own version of the "Black Hole," or will their move to the desert usher in a kinder, gentler fan base!
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AZDuffman
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September 16th, 2020 at 1:50:42 PM permalink
Quote: Joeman



Also, for all fans that think about going to one of their team's away games, I bet the Raiders are now at the top of the list for most! I'm already planning my trip to see the Jaguars visit the Raiders in 2025! ;)



Probably now that the fan base is not just the entire population of parolees in the state.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
ddloml
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September 16th, 2020 at 2:12:00 PM permalink
Quote: Joeman

I think you can add the Packers and Steelers to your list. Probably the Chiefs as well.

Also, for all fans that think about going to one of their team's away games, I bet the Raiders are now at the top of the list for most! I'm already planning my trip to see the Jaguars visit the Raiders in 2025! ;)



About 5 years ago I went to a Packers/Cardinals game in Phoenix. By looking at the the jerseys worn, the crowd was over 60% Packers fans. I would imagine the same effect should the Packers ever play in LV. One reason why the Packers never play in London is that the stadium in which they do play (either home or away) would be giving up a large amount of revenue.
AZDuffman
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September 16th, 2020 at 3:47:26 PM permalink
Quote: ddloml

Quote: Joeman

I think you can add the Packers and Steelers to your list. Probably the Chiefs as well.

Also, for all fans that think about going to one of their team's away games, I bet the Raiders are now at the top of the list for most! I'm already planning my trip to see the Jaguars visit the Raiders in 2025! ;)



About 5 years ago I went to a Packers/Cardinals game in Phoenix. By looking at the the jerseys worn, the crowd was over 60% Packers fans. I would imagine the same effect should the Packers ever play in LV. One reason why the Packers never play in London is that the stadium in which they do play (either home or away) would be giving up a large amount of revenue.



I lived in Phoenix the last 2 years of Sun Devil and 1st of the new stadium. It was worse then. A local DJ said all the Cardinals were was a foil for transplants and snowbirds to watch their team play. Like watching the Globetrotters come to your town every week.

Not as bad now, but they will never be a team with real local support. I agree and suspect the Raiders will end up the same way.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
racquet
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September 16th, 2020 at 5:10:30 PM permalink
The general reaction here seems to be that in-person attendance will return to normal. But what if this extended empty-stadium format continues, let's say at least until the playoffs. The at-home experience is the same. I keep forgetting that the crowd noise is manufactured. The announcers bring the same level of expertise and excitement to the broadcast. Watching at home, I don't think there is any difference.

The only NFL game I ever attended in person was the first Monday night game in New England, at the old stadium in Foxboro, so I have nothing to base my opinion on other than I have driven Uber to the new Gillette. You won't ever see me at a game in person. Too much hassle. Too much inconvenience. But I admit my perspective is not average, or based on realism. Nevertheless...

Assume that some bizarre form of social distancing will always be in effect. Even when the threat of COVID-19 goes away, our nannies will never relent and let us go back to what we experienced before. Let's not get all distracted by the politics of the virus for a minute = assume that tailgating, carousing in large unruly groups and not wearing masks everywhere stays as the status quo. Will the crowds return if all these restrictions remain?

If you used to be a regular in-person attendee at a professional baseball, basketball or football game, would you go to a game next weekend if you had to sit with a couple of empty seats all around you, nowheres near any other fan or even any member of your family or friends? No tailgating? Limited food and beverage service? If your 65,000 seat capacity stadium was restricted to even 50 percent? Do you think our minders would allow what used to be the normal rowdiness of a sporting crowd?

I'm saying that a lot of the folks who used to go to all the bother of getting there in person will figure out that having a bunch of their friends over to their living room, or their driveway for a barbecue, or into their back yards where the Mask Police will leave them be, will be a better experience than traipsing out to the stadium.

Being forced to change your normal routine gives you an opportunity to see what a different routine is like. I think people will figure out that watching from home is not that bad a deal.
smoothgrh
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September 16th, 2020 at 6:36:42 PM permalink
A few years ago, it was reported that NFL attendance dropped 1%. Doesn’t seem like much, but it showed that not everyone was clamoring to pay high prices, suffer inconvenience, and not be shown instant replay on close calls.

The advent of cheap HDTVs, better camera angles (thanks, XFL!), and insta-stats makes the home viewing experience for football so much better in so many ways.

I loved going to football games in college, but I’d prefer to get stuff done around the house during the 169 minutes of a game when the ball is not in play.
billryan
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September 16th, 2020 at 8:42:30 PM permalink
For many people, it's a lifestyle. In NY, football is a family thing. There is very little turnover of tickets so you get friendly with the people around you. My Uncles would drag me to games when I was eight or so, but by the time I was 13 I looked forward to going to a few games a year. We'd leave by 8AM for a 1PM game and tailgate and play football in the parking lot. 4PM games were even more fun and Monday nights were great because all the old folks gave their tickets to people who didn't have to work the next day. One year, I did six games, and as I got older and could afford it, we'd do one road game many years. Sometimes just an Eagles or Baltimore game, but one year we went to Minnesota, and another to St Louis .
After the OT win in Green Bay in that NFC Championship game, I swore I'd never go to another cold-weather game. I literally froze my nuts off. I was wearing multiple sets of long johns and two pairs of sweatpants. Lets say urinating was a bit difficult and even warm liquids quickly froze up.
While I haven't discussed it with my cousins and nephews who now control the tickets, I doubt any will give up going to " church" when they reopen.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
charliepatrick
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September 17th, 2020 at 3:49:31 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

...Wierd digression- One of the sets was a fraction of a second slower than the other...

I suspect it's the processing time to decode the pictures. I don't know for sure but they use algorithms to reduce the bandwidth and I think they also sometimes use the difference between the previous frame logic. I was also watching the "Monday Night" match as it was on UK terrestrial TV. Being early in the morning here I had the TV on mute and the laptop for headphones, about a second difference deciphering the same signal.
FatGeezus
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September 17th, 2020 at 8:02:27 AM permalink
"I went to a fight one night and a Hockey game broke out"--Rodney Dangerfield.
Gialmere
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September 17th, 2020 at 10:46:45 AM permalink
I don't care for seeing an NFL game in a stadium. You spend too much time watching everyone stand around waiting for the latest TV commercial break to end. Do these guys ever get a chance to be tired?

I did attend a pro golf tourney once. That was fun. Plus the players (and the follower fans) had to travel a few hundred yards between shots without stopping.
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DRich
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September 17th, 2020 at 10:56:26 AM permalink
Baseball is one of the sports that is really perfect for TV yet it is about the only sport I can't sit through a whole game watching. Any sport where the ball is the only important thing to watch is good for TV. Football, soccer, hockey I need to see what all of the players are doing.
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gordonm888
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September 17th, 2020 at 2:12:50 PM permalink
I agree with mush of what everyone has said.

1. Hockey is better in person.

2. Ballparks have energy and, with great weather and a good game, can be a good experience. But it is financially draining, and ballparks where parking is bad, and there isn't mass transport can be exhausting.

3. Fans' forced exposure to the "watch at home experience" is going to make a fundamental change in the attitudes towards attending games.

4. The "canary in the coalmine" - the leading indicator - will be college football:

a) first the bowl games, which are expensive to fly to, where hotels charge rip-off prices and most of which are meaningless. Watch Bowl Games disappear likes gnats into a bug-zapper.

b) Second, the Power 5 conferences, where attendance has been declining slightly for years now. Season tickets are tied into college donations and prices have been jacked up to the point where people are shrugging and giving up. I know people that have said: "Really? $10,000 for four season tickets to 7-8 games? Let's drop the season tickets, watch at home and use the money for something else." And that will just accelerate in post-pandemia.

c) Outdoor sporting events in the autumn in the rain are simply not a good experience. 40 degrees and being drenched is not fun. And cramming into a width of 16 inches of bench, as in some college stadiums? While students in the row in front of you stand for the entire game, blocking your view? Paying $8-11 for a hotdog? Spending 10 hours to see a 3 hour game? Fuggedaboutit!
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Jimmy2Times
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September 17th, 2020 at 3:05:36 PM permalink
Nearly all sports probably can be better seen on TV but as many have commented, the vibe and action at being in the stadium/arena watching live (even if the stadium/arena seat view is not as good as the view at home) is something to reckon with. For me, I never miss boxing on TV but always try to go to the event live. Even after 60 years of watching boxing in person, for me the process of planning and getting ready for the boxing trip (especially to cards in Vegas) is something I really look forward to. I like working on the hotel & flight details to the get the best deals, picking out my "flash" clothes and jewelry to wear (never know might run into a nice 50 year old "niece"), and the comradery and dynamics of the fight crowd. Last two cards I went to were Canelo-GGG II and Wilder-Ortiz II. Each trip was about $4000 each all in. I could have watched them at home with a better view for about a c-note apiece via PPV. Both trips were worth every penny and as long as I still have my mobility I am going to keep going live. For the big Vegas cards the fight is on the Saturday night but there are loads of boxing related activities leading up to the actual fight. On the Tuesday there are the fighter arrivals, on the Wednesday there are the open workouts, on the Thursday night there is usually another card at one of the smaller casinos usually off strip, on the Friday there is the weigh-ins for the Saturday bout. I think I enjoy these preliminary activities as much or more than the actual Saturday fight. It is great to be among fellow boxing fans during these preliminary activities.
This past week I was brought to tears watching the classic boxing movie "The Set-Up" which aired on TV. My Father and Uncle introduced me to boxing by taking me to see Carmen Basilio fight at the War Memorial Arena in Syracuse. It was the early 1960s and Mr. Basilio was at the end of his career but it was awesome to be there. I vividly remember there was always this older blind gentleman at the fights and he would have his buddy tell him what was happening in the ring during the bouts. I remember asking my Father why would this guy come to the fights if he could not see - my Father said because he is a fan and that it keeps him alive inside. My recent tears came when in two scenes from the movie The Set-Up, they showed a blind gentlemen in the stands with his buddy giving him the scoop on what was happening in the ring - it made me think of my Father's words, "it keeps him alive".
Bob Arum announced today that he is working to have fans in the stands for the tentatively scheduled Dec 19 Wilder-Fury III card at the new football stadium in Vegas. He said they are working out the details of how to handle the crowd to satisfy the necessary health protocols. If the event goes, I plan to be there, plan to be there.
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racquet
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September 17th, 2020 at 3:29:32 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

. . .forced exposure to the "watch at home experience" is going to make a fundamental change in the attitudes towards attending games.



That's what I think will do in the stadium experience. With limited distant seating, possible reductions in food and beverage, the mask police, people will conclude that the at-home experience will be good enough, if not better, than what they are getting now, in the brave new world.

Memories of what it was like to be at a real game in the past, like remembering what it was like to fly in a plane before hijacking (I'm talking about the fifties and sixties, long before 9/11), will remind people of what they are missing. You have to get on a plane if you want to go somewhere. But you won't HAVE to go to Giants Stadium to see them play.

I agree that the experiences listed here from people who were regulars at various venues, for all the sports, would insure that stadium attendance would come back. But those experiences are gone forever. What will replace them won't be worth the time, trouble and expense.

I would not invest in a new stadium or to rehab an old one. State and municipal governments will be confronted with figuring out how to reconfigure these places, just like they couldn't figure out what to do with the old train stations. Some of those places have a limited appeal as historical or museum locations, but sports stadiums won't have fallback alternatives.
AZDuffman
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September 17th, 2020 at 4:56:11 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888



a) first the bowl games, which are expensive to fly to, where hotels charge rip-off prices and most of which are meaningless. Watch Bowl Games disappear likes gnats into a bug-zapper.



Bowl games will last. That they are meaningless is not the thing. They are an excuse to go somewhere and enjoy the good weather. Something to do when you are taking a winter vacation.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
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