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Steverinos
Steverinos
Joined: Jul 6, 2016
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February 4th, 2019 at 12:46:29 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

The Founding Fathers, among many others.



Gotta protect the slave states.

Wait, what year is it?

Never mind.
TigerWu
TigerWu
Joined: May 23, 2016
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February 4th, 2019 at 1:09:06 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Sure you could. And he would owe capital gains tax on that sale too.



I thought doing that was very illegal because it would devalue the stock and could potentially destroy the company...
Dalex64
Dalex64
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February 4th, 2019 at 1:14:03 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

I thought doing that was very illegal because it would devalue the stock and could potentially destroy the company...



Estate tax does this already, yes?
TigerWu
TigerWu
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February 4th, 2019 at 1:35:10 PM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

Estate tax does this already, yes?



I don't know... I guess so?

So if I'm Jeff Bezos' heir, and he croaks tomorrow, I have to cash out tens of billions of dollars of Amazon stock just to pay the government the estate tax? That sounds like it could have disastrous financial consequences for the company.
Dalex64
Dalex64
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February 4th, 2019 at 2:20:59 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

I don't know... I guess so?

So if I'm Jeff Bezos' heir, and he croaks tomorrow, I have to cash out tens of billions of dollars of Amazon stock just to pay the government the estate tax? That sounds like it could have disastrous financial consequences for the company.



I didn't do much of a search, but what I found said generally estate taxes must be paid within 9 months.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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February 4th, 2019 at 3:35:51 PM permalink
Quote: Dalex64

I didn't do much of a search, but what I found said generally estate taxes must be paid within 9 months.



Okay, well, I just looked it up and Amazon's market cap is over $800 billion, so I guess if Jeff Bezos' heir had to liquidate $50 billion to pay an estate tax, I guess that wouldn't be as much of a shock as I thought it would be, especially if spread out over 9 months.

There's got to be more to it than that, though. I know billionaires don't play by the same rules the rest of us proletariat do.
Hullabaloo
Hullabaloo
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February 4th, 2019 at 3:47:23 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

There's got to be more to it than that, though. I know billionaires don't play by the same rules the rest of us proletariat do.



They don't.

https://www.ctj.org/ultra-wealthy-dodge-billions-in-taxes-using-grat-loophole/
TigerWu
TigerWu
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February 4th, 2019 at 3:55:46 PM permalink
Quote: Hullabaloo

They don't.

https://www.ctj.org/ultra-wealthy-dodge-billions-in-taxes-using-grat-loophole/



Haha... I was thinking about this earlier, how they dodge taxes, and I just knew trust funds had to be involved somehow....
24Bingo
24Bingo
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February 14th, 2019 at 11:13:07 PM permalink
Quote: Steverinos

Gotta protect the slave states.

Wait, what year is it?

Never mind.



This canard again? Look it up, and you'll find that most of the features of the electoral college exist to protect from the slave states. And frankly, this is easy enough to find out on your own, even if you weren't taught it, that I can't imagine it's not the case that a huge chunk of the people who perpetuate this nonsense know this, but keep it up because they know the way the map looks today makes it sound plausible to the masses that slept through history.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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Thanks for this post from:
RogerKintMooseton
February 15th, 2019 at 5:05:44 AM permalink
One reason why the estate tax is a failure. Ralph Wilson owned the Bills. He paid a pittance ($250,000) for it years ago. On his death it was worth $1,400,000,000. So his estate had to pay hundreds of millions in estate taxes. But they did not have hundreds of millions. So to pay the taxes they had to sell the team. You may not consider this a tragedy (we got a better owner!) but to me it is inherently wrong that because an owner died his heirs have to sell the fruits of the departed owners labor.

This argument is clear. To me the estate tax is just wrong. To others it is one of the best taxes.
RonC
RonC
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February 15th, 2019 at 5:20:49 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

One reason why the estate tax is a failure. Ralph Wilson owned the Bills. He paid a pittance ($250,000) for it years ago. On his death it was worth $1,400,000,000. So his estate had to pay hundreds of millions in estate taxes. But they did not have hundreds of millions. So to pay the taxes they had to sell the team. You may not consider this a tragedy (we got a better owner!) but to me it is inherently wrong that because an owner died his heirs have to sell the fruits of the departed owners labor.

This argument is clear. To me the estate tax is just wrong. To others it is one of the best taxes.



So how should the transfer of $1,399,750,000 in capital gains be handled? Should it go untaxed or should the basis remain $250,000 and then taxes be due later on, if the team is sold? The gains should be subject to tax at some point, but I agree with not paying those taxes until it is realized.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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February 15th, 2019 at 6:35:09 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

So how should the transfer of $1,399,750,000 in capital gains be handled? Should it go untaxed or should the basis remain $250,000 and then taxes be due later on, if the team is sold? The gains should be subject to tax at some point, but I agree with not paying those taxes until it is realized.



I agree with you. When the children sell the team, thus realizing the gain, capital gains taxes should be applied. Just because someone dies is no reason to essentially force a sale.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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February 15th, 2019 at 8:20:04 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I agree with you. When the children sell the team, thus realizing the gain, capital gains taxes should be applied. Just because someone dies is no reason to essentially force a sale.



I agree that the system is flawed, but if you look at the big picture, the heirs still ended up with a net gain of hundreds of millions of dollars in assets.

If I were in that situation you would be hard pressed to find me shedding even one tear.
billryan
billryan 
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February 15th, 2019 at 9:00:15 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I agree with you. When the children sell the team, thus realizing the gain, capital gains taxes should be applied. Just because someone dies is no reason to essentially force a sale.



If only there was a mechanism where someone who inherited a few billion dollars could borrow against their property. Tim Mara and the Tischs had no problem restructuring team finances when both co-owners of the Giants died.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Steverinos
Steverinos
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February 15th, 2019 at 11:15:37 AM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

This canard again? Look it up, and you'll find that most of the features of the electoral college exist to protect from the slave states. And frankly, this is easy enough to find out on your own, even if you weren't taught it, that I can't imagine it's not the case that a huge chunk of the people who perpetuate this nonsense know this, but keep it up because they know the way the map looks today makes it sound plausible to the masses that slept through history.



I have looked it up and have read about it, countless times and from many sources. Here are a few:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/electoral-college-has-been-divisive-day-one-180961171/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/electoral-college-slavery-constitution

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-racial-history-of-the-electoral-college-and-why-efforts-to-change-it-have-stalled

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/12/13598316/donald-trump-electoral-college-slavery-akhil-reed-amar

http://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/

Persuade me. Explain how the EC protects FROM the slave states. I am genuinely interested in hearing this. When you consider that the state of Pennsylvania, after the 1800 census had 10% more free people (people who can vote) than Virginia but receved 20% FEWER electoral votes, I'm seriously interested in hearing how the EC protected Pennsylvania.
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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February 15th, 2019 at 7:53:02 PM permalink
Quote: Steverinos

Quote: 24Bingo

This canard again? Look it up, and you'll find that most of the features of the electoral college exist to protect from the slave states. And frankly, this is easy enough to find out on your own, even if you weren't taught it, that I can't imagine it's not the case that a huge chunk of the people who perpetuate this nonsense know this, but keep it up because they know the way the map looks today makes it sound plausible to the masses that slept through history.



I have looked it up and have read about it, countless times and from many sources. Here are a few:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/electoral-college-has-been-divisive-day-one-180961171/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/electoral-college-slavery-constitution

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-racial-history-of-the-electoral-college-and-why-efforts-to-change-it-have-stalled

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/12/13598316/donald-trump-electoral-college-slavery-akhil-reed-amar

http://time.com/4558510/electoral-college-history-slavery/

Persuade me. Explain how the EC protects FROM the slave states. I am genuinely interested in hearing this. When you consider that the state of Pennsylvania, after the 1800 census had 10% more free people (people who can vote) than Virginia but receved 20% FEWER electoral votes, I'm seriously interested in hearing how the EC protected Pennsylvania.



If the president was elected by popular vote and slave owners still got 3/5ths extra of a vote for every male slave owned, then the EC would benefit free states more than a straight popular vote, correct? If the slave owners got no extra votes, then yes i would think a popular vote system would benefit the states with the most eligible voters.

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