WoV Spring Fling 2018
It is because AP wants to fly under other rader. And make sure it does not bite your ass sometimes in the future. Regular active member should be OK for my opinion. But for not quite active or new memeber,I would be cautious. We are talking about someone's ability to make a living.Quote: GlenGI'm still kinda confused on this...worst case scenario, what would I even do? And why? It's not like they put bounties out on AP
Quote: speedycrapIt is because AP wants to fly under other rader. And make sure it does not bite your ass sometimes in the future. Regular active member should be OK for my opinion. But for not quite active or new memeber,I would be cautious. We are talking about someone's ability to make a living.
Sure thats fine. But let me reiterate..what would I or other dealers even do and why? Dealers don't care about how you play your game as long as its not blatant cheating. Card Counting/DI/Wheel Clocking are all perfectly legal. It may be frowned upon, but dealers dont care if you do any of that. We know how to deal our game.
I would actually think its advantageous to have friends in the business.
Quote: speedycrapAP is taking money the way that casinos don't like. So by exposing his/her face,there is a chance to casino might try to stop/harass him/her in the future. Why take the chance?
That doesn't really answer the question of why a dealer/casino employee(thats not mgmt) should or should not attend a social gathering in where someone else is an AP. Whose going to know? My employer isnt tracking my every move. As far as anyone else besides myself and the people im with are concerned, were all people hanging out in Las Vegas.
And im going to ask for the 3rd time now, even if i hang out with a few people who are APs, what would i even do to them? What would be my motive to screw someone over for something thats not even Illegal to begin with?
Quote: GlenGSure thats fine. But let me reiterate..what would I or other dealers even do and why? Dealers don't care about how you play your game as long as its not blatant cheating. Card Counting/DI/Wheel Clocking are all perfectly legal. It may be frowned upon, but dealers dont care if you do any of that. We know how to deal our game.
I would actually think its advantageous to have friends in the business.
That’s just complete nonsense. I used to deal and many dealers do NOT have that opinion. Some do, yes. Some are wanting to climb the ladder to become floor people or even managers and whatnot. I’ve heard some dealers trying to rat out a card counter to a floor person during break (not that the dealer knows if the guy’s a counter or not). I don’t even wanna to think what would happen if one of those types of employees had access to meet up with a group of verified APs.
Quote: RSThat’s just complete nonsense. I used to deal and many dealers do NOT have that opinion. Some do, yes. Some are wanting to climb the ladder to become floor people or even managers and whatnot. I’ve heard some dealers trying to rat out a card counter to a floor person during break (not that the dealer knows if the guy’s a counter or not). I don’t even wanna to think what would happen if one of those types of employees had access to meet up with a group of verified APs.
Ive never worked at a place that sweats money in the way people describe it here, so i guess its a different mindset.
Quote: GlenG
And im going to ask for the 3rd time now, even if i hang out with a few people who are APs, what would i even do to them? What would be my motive to screw someone over for something thats not even Illegal to begin with?
No one is saying you are going to do anything. Most AP's want to go unnoticed in the casino. If a random employee knows what they are, there becomes a chance that they will be scrutinized in the casino environment. A loss of a casino could be a substantial hit to the bottom line.
A persons motive could be to simply curry favor with their employer.
Okay, this is definitely a very 'hypothetical' but let me try to paint a picture for you on the "worst case scenario."Quote: GlenGI'm still kinda confused on this...worst case scenario, what would I even do? And why? It's not like they put bounties out on AP
Worst Case... you work for a casino, you match names with faces (even if it's just forums names). You report to your casino. We OFTEN at meetups will go do something gambling related (such as our poker game). Your casino can now call the poker casino and say "Hey, that private game you had, they're ALL AP's, and a fair amount professionals. I need pictures of all of them to hang up in the surveillance rooms." Then if we ever go to any casino in that CHAIN (most are owned by the same one) we could A) get backed off / bared, or B) put a player card in a machine then they have a real name/etc to bar/ban and add to databases screwing you all around the country.
It's definitely a 'little' bit of a stretch, but you're talking about peoples real life professional income. You're talking about the money they depend on to make rent and put food on the table. With how AP's have been treated by the casino industry in the past, we DEFINITELY would NOT put it by them to do exactly the above. They're really quite a&$holes about it (most but not all).
Quote: RomesOkay, this is definitely a very 'hypothetical' but let me try to paint a picture for you on the "worst case scenario."
Worst Case... you work for a casino, you match names with faces (even if it's just forums names). You report to your casino. We OFTEN at meetups will go do something gambling related (such as our poker game). Your casino can now call the poker casino and say "Hey, that private game you had, they're ALL AP's, and a fair amount professionals. I need pictures of all of them to hang up in the surveillance rooms." Then if we ever go to any casino in that CHAIN (most are owned by the same one) we could A) get backed off / bared, or B) put a player card in a machine then they have a real name/etc to bar/ban and add to databases screwing you all around the country.
It's definitely a 'little' bit of a stretch, but you're talking about peoples real life professional income. You're talking about the money they depend on to make rent and put food on the table. With how AP's have been treated by the casino industry in the past, we DEFINITELY would NOT put it by them to do exactly the above. They're really quite a&$holes about it (most but not all).
MGM properties, one of which Glen works at, are definitely in the "a&$holes" category.
Quote: GlenGDid something happen in a previous Spring Fling?
This has not come up before, that I can recall. I think no front line casino employees have asked to go. We have had people who work in supporting businesses go, but these people were far from the AP battle.
For what it is worth, the BJ21 meet-ups have had a strict no casino employees policy, but that site is almost entirely devoted to advantage play and Green Chip membership at least tries to screen out casino workers. The Blackjack Ball also attempts, I would say in an uneven way, to bar anyone who works for the "dark side." Then again, that is an event that is supposed to be for advantage players only. I have always tried to make WoV a place that is welcoming to all on both sides.
Quote: GlenGSure thats fine. But let me reiterate..what would I or other dealers even do and why? Dealers don't care about how you play your game as long as its not blatant cheating.
In my active card counting days I had dealers rat me out lots of times. Granted, many dealers wouldn't know a card counter from an elephant, and some didn't care, but some are eager to impress management, I think in an effort of future advancement in the company.
This is getting a little off topic, but from my knowledge of the casino side, they are about ten times as concerned over cheating than advantage play, as I think they should be.
Quote: WizardThe Blackjack Ball also attempts, I would say in an uneven way, to bar anyone who works for the "dark side." Then again, that is an event that is supposed to be for advantage players only.
The problem with this one, is that Max Rubin, who hosts these things, is in the "DARK SIDE" and should not be trusted.
Leave cell phones at the door, but in earshot if one needs to be answered. No pictures beyond the posed one for Doc, voluntary for attendees. Name tags with forum names, and call everyone by those, not real names. (Take them off if we go to a casino together, obv). Wizard is already collecting attendees, and checking those he doesn't know.
Then everyone could show up, as the event started out to be welcoming to the forum, rather than restricting good members.
I'm sure others have tried to answer your question but ill add some perspective anyway.Quote: GlenGI'm still kinda confused on this...worst case scenario, what would I even do? And why? It's not like they put bounties out on AP
And again, I don't think YOU would do anything. What could a dealer do? He could tell the pit boss this guy is a known hole carder or whatever form WOV.
I would say, if you have been in this business long enough you will have seen just about anything, but in just the first few years I had seen just about everything.
We know "former AP's" have gone into casino consulting(the Darkside), and only God knows what else.
We even have some game inventors here. If a game inventor suddenly sees 3 known AP's from this forum show up on his new game, do you think he or she( add she for BBB) is just going to laugh it off?
At one time, I worked at a casino myself. When I left that job for AP a few of the slot floor people(and others) knew why I was leaving. Sure enough, a few years later during some casino grand openings at least 2 that I know of were now slot supervisors at the new casinos. This didn't have any negative effect on me. It was probably just the opposite since I was on fairly friendly terms with almost all the employees I knew. We would go out and play football on some weekends, go out for drinks etc when I worked there. But 9 out of 10 times if it comes to their ass or your's...
I would also bet, some of the team players that they didn't like(probably because they stiffed them on jackpots) who showed up to their casino got extra heat.
IIRC wasn't it Keysersoze who was sneaking around in the shadows at a WOV event? I don't know if it was related, but I know someone gave someone else my description from a WOV event.
There are some people who just like to create chaos and hurt others for no good reason other than spite and jealousy.
I think that's going a bit overboard. I think for the most part we kinda know whos who and whats up. A simple list of the people who are attending should be fine and everyone can make their decision based on that.Quote: beachbumbabsWe could do a Prince Harry party, maybe.
Leave cell phones at the door, but in earshot if one needs to be answered. No pictures beyond the posed one for Doc, voluntary for attendees. Name tags with forum names, and call everyone by those, not real names. (Take them off if we go to a casino together, obv). Wizard is already collecting attendees, and checking those he doesn't know.
Then everyone could show up, as the event started out to be welcoming to the forum, rather than restricting good members.
Quote: AxelWolfI think that's going a bit overboard. I think for the most part we kinda know whos who and whats up. A simple list of the people who are attending should be fine and everyone can make their decision based on that.
I would have agreed, before this latest round of litmus tests . I was hoping to provide a margin of comfort short of uninviting members just because of their jobs.
It bears remembering that a picture of 10 of us, game inventors and SOs, (out of about 35 who came) was posted on PGDs FB page, where his boss saw it, and fired him for consorting with the competition .
You, as I recall, posed behind a large menu, with your GF also hidden, but other friends showing . So there's something to people's concerns, though I don't think you've been affected negatively for attending.
Quote: AxelWolf. A simple list of the people who are attending should be fine and everyone can make their decision based on that.
That is exactly what I was thinking.
That was the group photo I was referring to back on page 19.Quote: beachbumbabs...where his boss saw it, and fired him for consorting with the competition .
If we really decide that the AP vs insiders thing is a big deal, I kind of think we'd be better with using real first names (or even fake first names, Bruce) instead of screennames. Someone whose screenname is AP-associated here would be more damaged by a correlation of a face to that name than a common/meaningless first name with no connection back to the screenname. "Hi, I'm Ken." is much less damning than "Hi, I'm IAPyourASS. Have you seen my 8000 posts about card counting and gaming bounceback offers?"
Its all a bit foggy now, but as I said, it was somthing I kept in the back of my mind.
Quote: AxelWolfWho was the guy... I think his name started with a T and he posted here often at one time. I think got a job at the SLS in some security, surveillance or management capacity and he stopped posting? While it had nothing to do with a WOV meetup I seemed to remember I was a little concerned about that at one time.
Its all a bit foggy now, but as I said, it was somthing I kept in the back of my mind.
Yeah, i think you're thinking of Tomspur (not his real name). He was surveillance overseas, got interested in the forum because he was building a dice game. He came back to the US to open SLS, and dropped away from posting. I miss him, actually. Good people. Think he got an install in Egypt, last I heard.
Not the kind of guy who would burn the forum people. I would vouch for him.
Another guy, surveillance in Edmonton AL, can't remember his forum id ATM, another good sort, also seems to be awol for some months now.
That said, what I'm leaning towards here is a policy that the meet-up be open to all members in good standing, with the condition that those who work directly for a casino disclose this fact in advance and hopefully a statement more or less saying they are not going for reasons as a spy for the "dark side.".
Then, AP's can make an educated decision on whether or not to go.
I have met this person before and he seems a very nice guy.
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
Quote: beachbumbabsIt bears remembering that a picture of 10 of us, game inventors and SOs, (out of about 35 who came) was posted on PGDs FB page, where his boss saw it, and fired him for consorting with the competition .
Wow, I never heard that story. WTF, in any other industry it's commonplace to network with others in the industry. Obviously giving away secrets and IP would be frowned upon, but just hanging out? That's really low.
Quote: AcesAndEightsWow, I never heard that story. WTF, in any other industry it's commonplace to network with others in the industry. Obviously giving away secrets and IP would be frowned upon, but just hanging out? That's really low.
That is not the reason he was fired, as I understand it. It had to do with him posting proprietary Galaxy information here. He was warned, but Dan kept on doing it so Galaxy had to let him go.
It was no big secret that Dan was a talker and may have let things slip he shouldn't have.
Quote: WizardThat is not the reason he was fired, as I understand it. It had to do with him posting proprietary Galaxy information here. He was warned, but Dan kept on doing it so Galaxy had to let him go.
It was no big secret that Dan was a talker and may have let things slip he shouldn't have.
Ah, that is very different.
Quote: WizardI just heard from the other casino employee who has requested to attend. He says that if at least one person is uncomfortable with his presence, he won't go. He evidently doesn't want to reveal anything about his real identity on the forum.
I have met this person before and he seems a very nice guy.
Who is this mysterious person? I’m guessing Z-Score.
But yeah, I +1 the “here’s a list of who’s going” thing so people can opt in/out.
Quote: beachbumbabsWe could do a Prince Harry party, maybe.
Leave cell phones at the door, but in earshot if one needs to be answered. No pictures beyond the posed one for Doc, voluntary for attendees. Name tags with forum names, and call everyone by those, not real names. (Take them off if we go to a casino together, obv). Wizard is already collecting attendees, and checking those he doesn't know.
Then everyone could show up, as the event started out to be welcoming to the forum, rather than restricting good members.
So can i change my account name already?
Quote: SOOPOOUnfortunately I can't make it this year. But regardless I have strong feelings that any member in good standing should be allowed to attend. This is not AP WoV forum, it is WoV forum. I think it is reasonable, however, for members considering attending to be aware of who else will be there, and thus be able to make a decision on whether they will or will not attend. People have mentioned the many ties regulars (Wiz, PGD, etc...) have had with the dark side, but lets not forget present administrator Face, who I'm pretty sure started in the casino business in some form of surveillance.
Indeed. I don't think the "paranoia" is unreasonable or to be discounted. There are AP's here I absolutely know the facial ID of, and the knowledge is from WoVCon events. I'll say with 100% conviction the revelation was not malicious, but while great care is taken here for the group pic, random pics do make it to other places. See a couple dudes you recognize, see a couple venues or groupings that match WoVCon happenings, compare clothes from the staged pic to the found-elsewhere pic...
I'm neither a headhunter nor in any of y'alls market, so I notified every AP I identified and told them where their stuff was being shown, as opposed to engaging in any dark side action. And it's hard for me to envision anyone else in the biz getting a hard-on for y'all, either. But, when we're talking livelihoods, there IS a >0 chance...
I'm with SOOPOO. I think outright prohibition is a bit unfair, but folks should have a right to info needed to make a decision in their best interest.
Quote: WizardThat is not the reason he was fired, as I understand it. It had to do with him posting proprietary Galaxy information here. He was warned, but Dan kept on doing it so Galaxy had to let him go.
It was no big secret that Dan was a talker and may have let things slip he shouldn't have.
You knew him better than I, so I don't doubt you're correct. Dan told me at the time it was specifically because of the picture. It probably doesn't matter any more.
Quote: beachbumbabsYou knew him better than I, so I don't doubt you're correct. Dan told me at the time it was specifically because of the picture. It probably doesn't matter any more.
I had a lunch with Dan after the incident and his version of it was so long that I can't summarize it. Brevity was not his strong suit. I do know he thought it was unfair and caught him by surprise. As much as I liked Dan, Galaxy's version of it sounds more plausible to me.
I believe there is a separate thread where that word might have been relevant: the shooting of the two long-term Venetian employees.
Its a question of degree but sometimes the unusual does happen.
Agreed on this as well. I think last year we got a group together for some pool and schanagains with ZK.Quote: rdw4potusI'm happy to get together the day before and/or the day of the event.
Any interest again in a poker game after? If there's interest, I'm sure we can make a game happen.
I think there is enough interest to have a poker game afterward. Hopefully somebody can arrange a private table somewhere.
Quote: beachbumbabsMaybe we should get a block of VGK tickets that Friday night. Nosebleed seats, expensive beer, t-shirt cannon....what could go wrong?
Starting at the low low price of $461(I have a friend whose a season ticket holder, offered to sell me rd2 tix for 100 each, but i couldn't go..ill have to see how much she will sell for this round). Outside the arena they have a big viewing party with a big projector and the same expensive beer.
Theres a bar called "Born And Raised" that is the home of the Golden Knights and its a great place to watch the game. I am not going to the Spring Fling(work and personal reasons), but would definitely come hang out and watch the Hockey game.
Quote: GlenGStarting at the low low price of $461(I have a friend whose a season ticket holder, offered to sell me rd2 tix for 100 each, but i couldn't go..ill have to see how much she will sell for this round). Outside the arena they have a big viewing party with a big projector and the same expensive beer.
Theres a bar called "Born And Raised" that is the home of the Golden Knights and its a great place to watch the game. I am not going to the Spring Fling, but would definitely come hang out and watch the Hockey game.
This is why I quit being a sports fan. Prices are ridiculous for this useless crap.
