"God really does play dice"

--- Stephen Hawking

The power of this man's intellect is as amazing as his ability to explain the nearly inexplicable.

see: lecture on The Origin of the Universe

I'm enchanted with the universe being a simulation. The universe beginning from nothing makes sense as a simulation, a simulation created from a universe that always was, and has no end. What's sad is that the human race always believed THEY would discover these answers to these mysteries, but it will be man's children, the computers, that achieve it.

The link page has the text of Professor Hawking's March 13, 2007 lecture given at UC Berkeley. Since then 2011 Nobel prize winning research suggested the universe is expanding ever more rapidly and all matter will eventually disintegrate into nothingness. I was puzzled that this news did not generate some general public discussion about our universe coming to an end, even if that end is billions of years away. Breath easy folks: research released last year by Oxford University says that ending does not yet have enough evidence to be considered a certainty.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

The link page has the text of Professor Hawking's March 13, 2007 lecture given at UC Berkeley. Since then 2011 Nobel prize winning research suggested the universe is expanding ever more rapidly and all matter will eventually disintegrate into nothingness. I was puzzled that this news did not generate some general public discussion about our universe coming to an end, even if that end is billions of years away. Breath easy folks: research released last year by Oxford University says that ending does not yet have enough evidence to be considered a certainty.

Given humanity's short-sightedness...

IMO it is highly likely that the universe is TRILLIONS of years old (not billions),
and that the universe is in a 10-20 billion year cycle of respiration (which scientists assume is the only cycle since the "big bang").

There is no mainstream science evidence for this belief, just an esoteric non-scientific text.

But it sounds reasonable to me.
The universe is smoother than one might expect from a "big bang" because scientists are underestimating the age of the universe by 2-4 orders of magnitude.

As far as I'm concerned, the universe ends with my last breath. Not planning on having my brain downloaded, hope not anyways, thinking it's greedy. That's going to be a thing before we know it, if we haven't already done it. That's a thing too.

Quote: mamat

Given humanity's short-sightedness...

IMO it is highly likely that the universe is TRILLIONS of years old (not billions),
and that the universe is in a 10-20 billion year cycle of respiration (which scientists assume is the only cycle since the "big bang").

There is no mainstream science evidence for this belief, just an esoteric non-scientific text.

But it sounds reasonable to me.
The universe is smoother than one might expect from a "big bang" because scientists are underestimating the age of the universe by 2-4 orders of magnitude.

Could be, but it's hard to say the least, to know what happened before the big bang. It could have been pea sized for an eternity before it popped, or one second. By respiration, are you meaning the universe expanding, then contracting to a singularity, then a big bang again? I dont think it'll be easy to prove it happened already. Matter would all be destroyed from the last incarnation, but if there's any evidence, something will find it someday.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

The link page has the text of Professor Hawking's March 13, 2007 lecture given at UC Berkeley. Since then 2011 Nobel prize winning research suggested the universe is expanding ever more rapidly

this is the Dark Energy discovery

Quote:

and all matter will eventually disintegrate into nothingness. I was puzzled that this news did not generate some general public discussion about our universe coming to an end, even if that end is billions of years away. Breath easy folks: research released last year by Oxford University says that ending does not yet have enough evidence to be considered a certainty.

the bit about disintegration into nothingness is the playing out of the idea that this Dark Energy is getting ever more stronger, thus the accelerating expansion. Essentially, DE is overcoming gravity now and will theoretically, as it continues to get stronger, overcome interatomic forces and the sub-atomic strong force too, tearing apart everything. I believe it is the idea that DE will continue to get so strong without limits that is now under dispute.

It is important to realize DE is quite the puzzle as to what it actually is. Paraphrasing one physicist I was watching on a program, "Dark Energy is the term we have for a phenomenon about which we are completely ignorant"

They have about as much trouble understanding Dark Matter.

Quote: The universe is expanding at an accelerating rate – or is it?

Link

... However, there now exists a much bigger database of supernovae on which to perform rigorous and detailed statistical analyses. ... [We] found that the evidence for accelerated expansion is, at most, what physicists call "3 sigma". This is far short of the 5 sigma standard required to claim a discovery of fundamental significance.

Origional research including hairy math available at Nielsen, J. T. et al. Marginal evidence for cosmic acceleration from Type Ia supernovae. Sci. Rep. 6, 35596; doi: 10.1038/srep35596 (2016)

Quote:

[We] found that the evidence for accelerated expansion is, at most, what physicists call "3 sigma". This is far short of the 5 sigma standard required to claim a discovery of fundamental significance.

hadn't seen that, thanks.

btw I get the gist of it, but don't get '3 sigma = meh , 5 sigma = required standard' ... seems to me it should go in the opposite direction.

Good stuff - and shows how a guy can be out of date on this stuff, the original post in this thread in fact was so in sort of an amusing way. BTW that link also mentions the European Extremely Large Telescope, which might be operating in another 7 years and we'll get some answers maybe.

Image from wikipedia page

While the math is way above my level of expertise, I'm kind of rooting for Antony Garrett Lisi's E8 Theory (a.k.a. "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything") if for no other reason than the particle state diagram makes for a really cool T-shirt (just google 'E8 shirt').

Trying to come to grips with the nature of matter: boggles my mind to think that something IS; where, when, why and how did it come into existence?

How can matter have always existed?

Then again, how could it NOT have?

Perplexing!

Hawking talks to those issues in the lecture notes your OP links to. Time, matter and energy began from a sigularity 13.8 billion years ago. There is no context for the existence of anything in this universe before that. Hawking uses the analogy of "south of the South Pole" to explain there is no meaning for a time before the creation of the universe.

That's what the great minds of today say the evidence supports. There are alternate facts for those who wish to see existence differently. ;->

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Hawking talks to those issues in the lecture notes your OP links to. Time, matter and energy began from a sigularity 13.8 billion years ago.

My total guess...based on no scientific evidence.

Is based on a knowledge of scientific history.

(1) Some humans think they are smart know-it-alls.
(2) They are incredibly short-sighted.

My suggestion is that
(A) The universe is actually 20-40+ trillion years ago, undergoing respiration (expansion-contraction).
(B) We started an expansion cycle about 10 billion years ago, and it will last 20 billion years.
(C) Currently scientists use some super-fast explosion period to explain the smoothness/flatness of the universe. It is smoother than we would expect for a 14 billion old theory.
(D) This super-fast expansion is not necessary for a 20-40+ trillion year old universe.

From mainstream science:
(A) General Relativity & Quantum Mechanics are INCOMPATIBLE. Something is wrong. we don't know what.
(B) There are many problems with Standard Model (particle physics), but we don't know how to solve them.
(C) Superstring theory, M-Theory and a whole bunch of alternatives to Standard Model are total belly-button contemplation. No experimental evidence yet.

Basically mainstream science doesn't know what's wrong (At least 20-40 major problems).
we know our current theories are wrong,
but until you do the math for your favorite alternative (and yours is better than current theories at explaining experimental data),
we're sticking with the stuff we know is wrong.

Besides the current theories are paying for my salary & grants, and I don't want to jeopardize that,
so I will fight very hard before I give your theory a chance (if it upsets my gravy train).

----
P.S. I have a Physics BA from that H-school in the east, and worked for Nobel laureates...so I kinda have an idea where Mainstream physics is.

Quote: mamat

My total guess...based on no scientific evidence.

Is based on a knowledge of scientific history.

(1) Some humans think they are smart know-it-alls.
(2) They are incredibly short-sighted.

My suggestion is that
(A) The universe is actually 20-40+ trillion years ago, undergoing respiration (expansion-contraction).
(B) We started an expansion cycle about 10 billion years ago, and it will last 20 billion years.
(C) Currently scientists use some super-fast explosion period to explain the smoothness/flatness of the universe. It is smoother than we would expect for a 14 billion old theory.
(D) This super-fast expansion is not necessary for a 20-40+ trillion year old universe.

I like!

Quote:

Besides the current theories are paying for my salary & grants, and I don't want to jeopardize that,
so I will fight very hard before I give your theory a chance (if it upsets my gravy train).

Ha ha, pretty good. Wow, I wish more scientists would admit this, it is a *very* frequent, often backed-up, accusation thrown at them, that where their money is coming from is influencing their science. Take for instance ... no, I won't go there!! But both sides are accused.

We saw in this thread there is a Oxfordian challenge to Dark Energy, that it even has been observed I guess, but as far as I know, Dark Matter data is not suspect. What do you think Dark Matter is?

I often ponder that 'free will' could just be an illusion. Perhaps our lives have played out many time over already.. and possibly there are millions of our simulated selves playing out other lives in multiple realms and existences. The vast majority of minds and bodies like ours may not belong to an original race, but rather to people simulated by the advanced descendants of an original race, whomever or wherever that may be. That being said, I would argue that we very well could be among the simulated minds rather than among the original biological ones. I hate to believe that I don't control my own destiny, but sometimes it sure seems possible that much has already been determined in life regardless of how or what I do. What is our purpose and why so much pain and suffering in this world? As Ive stated many times, I believe we are all made of energy. When our physical presence on earth dies, our energy lives on and most likely manifests into some new form. Who? What? Where? When? Why? I wish I had those answers. Life would be a lot easier. But one thing I do know is that energy is real!

Quote: WatchMeWin

I often ponder that 'free will' could just be an illusion...I would argue that we very well could be among the simulated minds rather than among the original biological ones.

__________________________

"Nothing Exists"

* ---- From "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones:" compiled by Paul Reps *

"Yamaoka Tesshu, as a young student of Zen, visited one master after another. He called upon Dokuon of Shokoku.

Desiring to show his attainment, he said: “The mind, Buddha, and sentient beings, after all, do not exist. The true nature of phenomena is emptiness. There is no realization, no delusion, no sage, no mediocrity. There is no giving and nothing to be received.”

Dokuon, who was smoking quietly, said nothing. Suddenly he whacked Yamaoka with his bamboo pipe. This made the youth quite angry.

“If nothing exists,” inquired Dokuon, “where did this anger come from?” "

I loved reading Hawking's writing and other ideas on this subject. I would be lying if I said that I fully understand these ideas. I suspect that the knowledge of even the greatest minds out there is limited. It pains me to say this and I don't say it about others, but as for myself, I know that I was born ignorant and that I will die ignorant. I will never know the true answers to the great mysteries of the universe.

Quote: WatchMeWin

I believe we are all made of energy. When our physical presence on earth dies, our energy lives on and most likely manifests into some new form. Who? What? Where? When? Why? I wish I had those answers. Life would be a lot easier. But one thing I do know is that energy is real!

I couldn't agree with you more! Many thanx for posting. A few things that may interest you:

• Return to Life, a book by Jim Tucker, MD, describes children (usually age 4 and under) who present as having had a previous life before being born to the current family. Dr. Tucker is the Bonner-Lowry Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences in the University of Virginia Medical School. He is also the Director of the Division of Perceptual Studies, a part of the Department of Psychiatry, which for 50 years has been studying cases of children who remember past lives. In some cases, their research identifies the previous person the child reports having been. A big plus for those interested in "energy," is the last third of the book, where Dr. Tucker summarizes current findings in quantum mechanics and theoretical physics (with notes to original sources, for those who want to dig deeper). It's a great read for only $15 (paperback).
• The Division of Perceptual Studies has a wealth of information about several related areas, including Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Altered States of Consciousness, and Psi-Neuroimaging Studies, in addition to children who report prior lives. It's a wealth of information for anyone interested in topics such as these (or brave enough to suspend disbelief long enough to check for themselves).
• Anyone with an interest in near-death experiences should check out the work reported by Pim van Lommel, MD, a Dutch cardiologist. Early in his career a patient at his hospital had a heart attack and "flat-lined" for several minutes, but was successfully resuscitated, and later described experiences during his period of no cardiac activity. For 20 years Dr. van Lommel had staff at his hospital (and other Dutch hospitals that also participated later) report these collected experiences, work eventually published (in 2001) in The Lancet, a premier medical journal. This prompted hospitals all over Europe to share NDE information, rather than just blowing it off (as usually occurred). Dr. van Lommel's book Consciousness Beyond Life reports the work that followed the Lancet article. And, like Dr. Tucker, Dr. van Lommel devotes the last third of his book to a discussion of current findings in theoretical physics and quantum mechanics, with original-source citation footnotes on almost every page.

I know some reading this will still say, "But, Lucky, there is no such thing as "energy" at a craps table because of independent, random blah-blah-blah." Yeah, right! It exists everywhere, all around us, but not at the craps table. To each his/her own, don'cher know?

Quote: LuckyPhow

I couldn't agree with you more! Many thanx for posting. A few things that may interest you:

• Return to Life, a book by Jim Tucker, MD, describes children (usually age 4 and under) who present as having had a previous life before being born to the current family. Dr. Tucker is the Bonner-Lowry Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences in the University of Virginia Medical School. He is also the Director of the Division of Perceptual Studies, a part of the Department of Psychiatry, which for 50 years has been studying cases of children who remember past lives. In some cases, their research identifies the previous person the child reports having been. A big plus for those interested in "energy," is the last third of the book, where Dr. Tucker summarizes current findings in quantum mechanics and theoretical physics (with notes to original sources, for those who want to dig deeper). It's a great read for only $15 (paperback).
• The Division of Perceptual Studies has a wealth of information about several related areas, including Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Altered States of Consciousness, and Psi-Neuroimaging Studies, in addition to children who report prior lives. It's a wealth of information for anyone interested in topics such as these (or brave enough to suspend disbelief long enough to check for themselves).
• Anyone with an interest in near-death experiences should check out the work reported by Pim van Lommel, MD, a Dutch cardiologist. Early in his career a patient at his hospital had a heart attack and "flat-lined" for several minutes, but was successfully resuscitated, and later described experiences during his period of no cardiac activity. For 20 years Dr. van Lommel had staff at his hospital (and other Dutch hospitals that also participated later) report these collected experiences, work eventually published (in 2001) in The Lancet, a premier medical journal. This prompted hospitals all over Europe to share NDE information, rather than just blowing it off (as usually occurred). Dr. van Lommel's book Consciousness Beyond Life reports the work that followed the Lancet article. And, like Dr. Tucker, Dr. van Lommel devotes the last third of his book to a discussion of current findings in theoretical physics and quantum mechanics, with original-source citation footnotes on almost every page.

I know some reading this will still say, "But, Lucky, there is no such thing as "energy" at a craps table because of independent, random blah-blah-blah." Yeah, right! It exists everywhere, all around us, but not at the craps table. To each his/her own, don'cher know?

Hey LP... Thanks for your note. I will look into those books. You should also take a look at Eben Alexanders' Proof of Heaven. It is quite compelling.

Energy is real and it lives here on earth. We cant hear it, see it, smell it, taste it, or feel it (just like cellular signals, gps signals, etc) but it exists... and who is to say that these energies are't lost souls having their fun with us on earth....especially in the devils playground, which is the casino. Things that make you say....hmmmmm. Stay away from bad energy on the tables.. its real man!

Quote: odiousgambit

Ha ha, pretty good. Wow, I wish more scientists would admit this, it is a *very* frequent, often backed-up, accusation thrown at them, that where their money is coming from is influencing their science. Take for instance ... no, I won't go there!! But both sides are accused.

"Accusation" - what? hah..

Science & Academia is full of people playing dirty-pool. It's not the majority, but probably a good 5-10% minimum...and maybe 20% to some degree.
It's hard to say exactly how many, because some people play a "lot of nasty", and some a little.

*** Sad story about HIV/AIDS. ***
Do you know why 4,000 hemophiliacs in France got HIV in 1984-85?
Because a test had been invented by some American scientists. The French scientists wanted to invent their own home-grown test, and almost all the hemophiliacs in France were infected during the 1 year delay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products

Academic politics is really bad. Not much better than Trump vs Clinton. Unfortunately.
Maybe 40-80% of all scientific papers are unreproducible.
Just as no presidential candidate in 2016 had less than 33% lies (by Politifact).

Same old. Same old. "Science" & Universities are no better than National Politics.

I find it funny when people say "science says X" like it's religion.

When I hear "Science says X", I think (1) They are probably wrong. (2) Let me look at the primary & secondary sources. (3) Has it been confirmed by 3 independent labs? Whose scientists are not working in collusion...

...old fashioned "critical thinking" & Journalistic process (which 99% of Facebook meme writers seem to have failed to learn).

Quote: odiousgambit

What do you think Dark Matter is?

A few ideas from esoteric works. Astral & Etherial plane, etc...

From modern theoretical physics, in some 10-12-dimensional models, the world can look like a dumbbell - with normal matter on one end, and Dark matter on the other end. And they interact through gravity, but not through EM/Weak/Strong forces.

Look up Lisa Randall & variations on the R-S model (1999 Randall-Sundrum model).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Randall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall–Sundrum_model (Don't know why this link won't work. Copy & paste it.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warped_Passages (New York Times best seller. 2005 physics ideas for the layman.)

Warped Passages: Unraveling the Mysteries of the Universe's Hidden Dimensions is about particle physics in general and additional dimensions of space (cf. Kaluza–Klein theory) in particular. The book has made it to top 50 at amazon.com, making it the world's first successful book on theoretical physics by a female author.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocking_on_Heaven%27s_Door:_How_Physics_and_Scientific_Thinking_Illuminate_the_Universe_and_the_Modern_World (2011 Physics)

Knocking on Heaven’s Door: How Physics and Scientific Thinking Illuminate the Universe and the Modern World is the second non-fiction book by Lisa Randall. It was initially published on September 20, 2011. Randall’s new book, ... takes us 10 years past her initial conjectures and in some ways may be even more ambitious. As the subtitle indicates, she wishes to take up larger questions about the nature of scientific thinking, including its relation to religion and its reliance on probability. At the same time, she wishes to bring her audience up to date regarding the status of her theory within the larger ambit of particle physics and cosmology as the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) begins

-> Trivia: In Lisa Randall's circles, it's highly likely that she knows many members of the MIT blackjack teams.
-> One of my professor friends at Harvard ... has an ex-girlfriend who was on one of the MIT blackjack teams.

From a combination of esoteric works & sci-fi, Perhaps people super-advanced at science can make light work back & forth between ordinary matter & dark matter, thus making people on the Astral/Etherial Planes visible to normal people (but they can't touch).

-----
However, this is pure speculation.

One cool thing about science is that
(1) you can think up all kinds of crazy stuff
(2) But you have to math a mathematical model, and show that it is consistent with experimental evidence (or at least more consistent than any other theory)
(3) Theories have to be "falsifiable". There have to be situations which can prove the theory to be wrong.

Quote: WatchMeWin

I often ponder that 'free will' could just be an illusion. Perhaps our lives have played out many time over already.. and possibly there are millions of our simulated selves playing out other lives in multiple realms and existences

One esoteric work on "eternity"...

....suggests that everything YOU are living in the NOW, actually occurred billions/trillions of years ago.
And that YOU are simply reliving an old memory (for pleasure's sake maybe).

You had free-will, but we know the "future" because it was actually billions/trillions of years in the past.

Quote: mamat

"Accusation" - what? hah..

Science & Academia is full of people playing dirty-pool. It's not the majority, but probably a good 5-10% minimum...and maybe 20% to some degree.
It's hard to say exactly how many, because some people play a "lot of nasty", and some a little.

*** Sad story about HIV/AIDS. ***
Do you know why 4,000 hemophiliacs in France got HIV in 1984-85?
Because a test had been invented by some American scientists. The French scientists wanted to invent their own home-grown test, and almost all the hemophiliacs in France were infected during the 1 year delay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products

Academic politics is really bad. Not much better than Trump vs Clinton. Unfortunately.
Maybe 40-80% of all scientific papers are unreproducible.
Just as no presidential candidate in 2016 had less than 33% lies (by Politifact).

Same old. Same old. "Science" & Universities are no better than National Politics.

I find it funny when people say "science says X" like it's religion.

When I hear "Science says X", I think (1) They are probably wrong. (2) Let me look at the primary & secondary sources. (3) Has it been confirmed by 3 independent labs? Whose scientists are not working in collusion...

...old fashioned "critical thinking" & Journalistic process (which 99% of Facebook meme writers seem to have failed to learn).

Post of the year.

Quote: mamat

... I find it funny when people say "science says X" like it's religion.

When I hear "Science says X", I think (1) They are probably wrong. (2) Let me look at the primary & secondary sources. (3) Has it been confirmed by 3 independent labs? Whose scientists are not working in collusion...

...old fashioned "critical thinking" & Journalistic process (which 99% of Facebook meme writers seem to have failed to learn).

Good show segment skewering how the media reports and distorts scientific studies:

Scientific Studies: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO) NSFW

Hopefully, the Green Meanies won't smack me with the ban-hammer for thread hijacking. :-o

Quote: mamat

" Unfortunately.
Maybe 40-80% of all scientific papers are unreproducible.

That's at least a 20% better chance than depending on untestable sources. Who wouldn't opt for a 20 percent advantage?

I'd rather have people source info from 80 percent questionable material, than 100% questionable material.

What's all this about esoteric research in the astral plane? You're beaming up talking to Yoda or what? I'm just wondering because you claim to know the age of the universe beyond what can be known. There'd have to be some remnant, not really sure how it'd survive all matter destroyed, to know the universe is older than calculated.

I can jump off and say I've thought about reincarnation and the possibilities. People can be reincarnated into the past if they're 100% compatible with the choices, actions a person had made. If reincarnation was true that is, such a thing could work without changing the future. Thoughts could be completely different with another soul, because all actions are identical. Maybe there are as many souls as decimal places to Pi. There would have to be for this to work.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

What's all this about esoteric research in the astral plane?

Western "Science" is a branch of philosophy, which is a branch of thought.
The western version of "science" in the 1900s-2000s assumes
(a) Things are testable via observation
(b) The laws of the universe are relatively stable (e.g. not different 1 foot away)
(c) Theories can be disproved. (However, you can't really "prove" a theory, just that it is consistent with all/most known data)...
(d) Observing doesn't change reality (Quantum stuff gets confusing here)
(e) Super-powerful beings are NOT mucking with your experiments, so that things are fairly repeatable. e.g. No magic from unknown sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science

I classify stuff as

(1) Mainstream science - consensus theories
(2) Mainstream science - alternate theories
(3) Fringe science - Think "cold fusion". Even if something is real, if you touch this, Type A - Powerful - mainstream scientsits will make you a pariah
(4) Non-science - e.g. "The universe is holographic, and everything affects everything else as a whole".
Not "falsifiable" (ala Popper). A perfectly good philosophical statement, or thought. Just not what we call 1990s-2000s "western science".
(5) Esoteric works
- (a) anything with unknown origin, from a long time ago, which may deal with metaphysics, etc...
- (b) may be from extra-terrestrial sources, angels, God, spirit beings, channeled work, automatic writing, dreams. (e.g. Voodoo land).

Keep in mind, mainstream science has some theories with absolutely NO experimental data. And some mainstream theories are 100% WRONG.
Superstring theory and many particle physics theories have NO evidence that says they are true.
Standard Model is WRONG. Some experimental evidence contradicts it.

Why do they keep going with these "contemplate belly-button theories"?
Quantum Mechanics & General Relativity (gravity) do NOT work together.
So one or both are WRONG via experimental evidence.
No one has a clue how to fix the problems.
You would become a physics legend like Einstein if you could fix some of the major problems.

So you are allowed to work on "crackpot theories", but only "mainstream science approved" crackpot theories.

Such is the world of the academic version of Type-A Power-Status Alpha Males.

The universe is estimated to be 13.8 billion years old because we can see light that took 13.8 billion years to reach us. Light from older sources has yet to reach us. Whatever emitted that observable light 13.8 billion years ago, has traveled at least 13.8 billion lightyears beyond the point.

Shouldn’t that put the age of the universe at not less than 27 billion years?

Current thinking is that the radius is 46.5 billion lightyears.

The universe would have to inflate at three times the speed of light to reach that radius in 13.8 billion years.

Cosmic Inflation

Quote: Tanko

The universe is estimated to be 13.8 billion years old because we can see light that took 13.8 billion years to reach us. Light from older sources has yet to reach us. Whatever emitted that observable light 13.8 billion years ago, has traveled at least 13.8 billion lightyears beyond the point.

Shouldn’t that put the age of the universe at not less than 27 billion years?

Current thinking is that the radius is 46.5 billion lightyears.

The universe would have to inflate at three times the speed of light to reach that radius in 13.8 billion years.

Cosmic Inflation

Exactly why the BBT is just a "theory." And I'm not taking about the tv show.

Also, that stuff that far out would've had to travel at the speed of light which is not probable. It also contradicts why the Andromeda galaxy is coming TOWARD us instead of away from us.

I don't buy the BBT for one minute.

as the hippies used to say, "heavy, man, heavy"

as for dark matter, I'll paraphrase another scientist I caught on a program:

"we can say what dark matter is not better than we can say what it is. It is not protons, neutrons, electrons, or the particles they break up into either. It is not black holes."

Apparently current theory would have it be some kind of particle though, Wimps winning out over Machos - you can see by these names they are having fun with it

Quote: WatchMeWin

Hey LP... take a look at Eben Alexanders' Proof of Heaven. It is quite compelling.

Very true. The former Harvard professor and neurosurgeon clearly had a "not-in-Kansas-anymore" moment resulting from his own out-of-body and near-death experiences while in a medically induced coma.

I think Dr. Alexander gets it wrong when he asserts that what happened to him -- a very church-centered revelation of God -- is the one and the only experience one can expect. In my experience, Energy -- that larger energy around us -- gives us what is most appropriate for each individual when they have the same kind of mind-blowing intellectual orgasm as Dr. Alexander experienced. When individuals have those explosive personal events, their own experiences often vary greatly, one from another.

Regardless of the degree by which individual experiences such as these differ, they often share one consistent phenomenon. Those who experience intense out-of-body experiences often report no fear of their own (future) passing from this life. Whatever happens to them individually, the common shared experience embraces death as a transition, not an end.

God said; "Bang" and it happened. Doesn't get any simpler.

Quote: DeMango

God said; "Bang" and it happened. Doesn't get any simpler.

Then how did God get there and when and where did he begin?

Quote: WatchMeWin

Then how did God get there and when and where did he begin?

Ahhh, the old chicken and the egg routine. The believers don't have an answer for that one! :-)

A believer would say "god has always existed," then smile.

An atheist would say "What a bunch of superstitious, unproven drivel."

Face it: at this point in our development, we don't have the accepted answer to fundamental questions of creation / cosmology.

I sure as hell wish we did: debunking issues of religious difference would finally allow our species to unify and work together as a cohesive whole instead of constantly warring over ridiculous religious notions: "My invisible boss is the only true invisible boss, so now you must die."

Bah, humbug!

Quote: MrV

A believer would say "god has always existed," then smile.

An atheist would say "What a bunch of superstitious, unproven drivel."

This one would say, "Well, what created God?"

I dont mind battles like these, but mind them religion is the proof or the criticism. You can throw all bibles, Torah's, etc., in the garbage and still debate. I'm pretty much a general believer, agnostic. If there is a multiverse, I'd either say there is a God and there isn't, but neither are true alone. It's even possible there could be some kind of heaven where nobody has ever directly met God. Anything's possible.

It's the lack of proof that puts me off.

Were there an all powerful being calling all the shots I'd think it would be evident and easy to verify.

"Faith?"

Not me.

Quote: MrV

It's the lack of proof that puts me off.

Were there an all powerful being calling all the shots I'd think it would be evident and easy to verify.

"Faith?"

Not me.

We cannot conceive the inconceivable, which must be what an all powerful being must be. I counter knowing an all powerful being existed and being verifiable, would not be all powerful. I have maintained my belief an all powerful God would have to exist outside our universe, since we know the laws of physics can only be changed from the outside, while inside, all are subject to those laws. Otherwise until we can leave our universe, we will never know what exists outside, just like a whale doesn't know what we do on land. Even then they might not be all powerful, just all powerful over us. If I was god, I dont think id even care if I was worshipped or not, but there we go trying to conceive the inconceivable again.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Ahhh, the old chicken and the egg routine. The believers don't have an answer for that one! :-)

The answer is that if you ask ridiculous questions, you will - should - get ridiculous answers.

No chicken lays itself for an egg. If we are talking about the same chicken, then the egg came first; conversely, if about a different chicken, then the chickens came first. A chicken egg is still a chicken, after all.

Same for this nonsense about what is and from where the universe. Ask the right question, and you shall receive.

Quote: MrV

It's the lack of proof that puts me off.

Were there an all powerful being calling all the shots I'd think it would be evident and easy to verify.

Proofs are just sequences of statements, which mainstream scientists (or some other group of people) accept as a "proof" - nothing more.

Mainstream science really only has falsifiability; e.g. you can show that a theory is "wrong" or "has certain kinds of problems", but you can't actually show that it is "right".

You can show that some statement "has some type of consistency" & and if you add it to some other statements, that you can't "derive a contradiction, for some meanings of the words derive and contradiction".
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IMO an all-powerful being
(a) Doesn't have to follow any rules of "causation".
(b) Is not subject to "time" or "space" or any "laws of the universe".

In some sense an "all-powerful being" can do any kind of "magic" they want... otherwise they aren't "all-powerful".

How is any type of "proof" valid?
If some being came to our planet and (1) made the empire state building disappear (2) resurrected someone dead for 100 years (3) showed a time-lapse video of the past 4 billion years of life on earth (4) showed us video of the next million years, all that would show is that they have abilities that we don't. It would not "prove" that they are an "all-powerful God"

Two related questions
(1) What about un-doable things? Think Godel's incompleteness Theorems. So we might have to make better definitions of "all-powerful"
(2) An interesting related question would be is there a "not-quite all-powerful being, but still with lots of abilities we can't imagine".

Quote: mamat

Proofs are just sequences of statements, which mainstream scientists (or some other group of people) accept as a "proof" - nothing more.

Yes, a tiny shift in every thing would result in a fundamentally different theory of everything. The reason that every thing must be defined and unified at the same time alongside every other thing. How to do that, and still allow for an explanation?

Quote: mamat

Mainstream science really only has falsifiability; e.g. you can show that a theory is "wrong" or "has certain kinds of problems", but you can't actually show that it is "right".

Then you can't actually show that it is wrong either. Do perceived mistakes less exist, or less than their corrections? What does it mean to really (in mind) and actually (in body) exist, itself?

Quote: mamat

In some sense an "all-powerful being" can do any kind of "magic" they want... otherwise they aren't "all-powerful".

Are you sure that all-powerful can be an outright adjective for a being? Perhaps, the true magic was "used up" in the ongoing "creation" of the universe. What(ness) can't exist?

Quote: mamat

How is any type of "proof" valid?

This is where the true search should begin, with the end in mind.

Quote: mamat

(1) What about un-doable things? Think Godel's incompleteness Theorems. So we might have to make better definitions of "all-powerful"

Best definitions of every thing.

Quote: mamat

(2) An interesting related question would be is there a "not-quite all-powerful being, but still with lots of abilities we can't imagine".

This too.

Just because certain things cannot be proved, it doesn't mean they don't exist. Are there multiple realms of existence and other dimensions in this transgalactical interuniversal mega-multi-macrocosmic infinite space? I cant prove it, but I sure believe it.