How many points is a king worth?

We had an unofficial gathering last night with eight forum members. As usual there was a lot of trivia betting. There was a bet made of me on my answer to this question:

In chess, how many points is a king worth?

As background, here is the common understanding of the value of the other pieces:
Pawn: 1
Knight: 3
Bishop: 3 (I've heard some say 3.25)
Rook: 5
Queen: 9

I won't say what I said, but suffice it to say it touched off a long argument.

For the poll you may vote for more than one choice. Please vote for all those you feel are correct answers.

Tried to vote for:
The Game
Chess club is a lousy place to pick-up women

Poll would not allow both votes, I call foul.
Who's in charge here anyway?
Yes, 2F asked..

Quote: Wizard

We had an unofficial gathering last night with eight forum members. As usual there was a lot of trivia betting. There was a bet made of me on my answer to this question:

In chess, how many points is a king worth?

As background, here is the common understanding of the value of the other pieces:
Pawn: 1
Knight: 3
Bishop: 3 (I've heard some say 3.25)
Rook: 5
Queen: 9

I won't say what I said, but suffice it to say it touched off a long argument.

For the poll you may vote for more than one choice. Please vote for all those you feel are correct answers.

These are classical values that are no longer considered correct for an entire game. Computer chess has shown that these values are dynamic, then change as the game progresses. For example, pawns are worth a lot more in the end game than they are at the beginning of the game.

I must have learned chess in the "old days" as Teliot referenced, because I recognize those piece "values." Although I have since come across snippets of a "dynamic value" such as knights are worth more than bishops early on, but vice-versa later in the game.

I was taught that piece values were to be used as a guide to determine if a certain play would benefit one player over another. E.g. if you spot a move that will net you a bishop and a knight by sacrificing your rook, you would do it since 3+3>5. OTHO, if that move would net you only a bishop and a pawn, you would not do it since 3+1<5. "Even" exchanges (e.g. piece for like piece) are only beneficial if you are already "ahead" or the result of the exchange would give you better overall position.

In that sense, a king's point value could be viewed as infinite. It could also be valued at any number 40 or higher since the total value of all your opponent's (non-king) pieces is 39. Exchanging your king for any/all of your opponent's pieces is always a losing move.

However, the values of pieces are only realized in the context of whether or not they are on the board or have been captured/removed. Since the king can never be captured/removed form the board during regular game play, assigning it a value is moot.

I vote "Other." I wouldn't go so far as to call the question "stupid", but perhaps a "bad" question in that no numerical answer is meaningful.

As an aside, does the Who do I blame for that stupid passing pawn rule? poll option refer to taking a pawn en passant? I love that rule! Does that make me a bad man?

Quote: Joeman

As an aside, does the Who do I blame for that stupid passing pawn rule? poll option refer to taking a pawn en passant? I love that rule! Does that make me a bad man?

Yes. You are on the bad man list now.

Wiz, you should have added 3 and 3.5 to the poll. (Not that I think that is correct)

We all know the king is worth the game. However it has to also have some kind of value. During the the end game a king can be more powerful than a minor piece but obviously not as powerful a rook.

All pieces have a different value depending on the situation. So what's the average value of a king, taking in account everything including the begging of the game and the fact that it's movements and attacks can be very limited and its always in danger ?

I don't know how they make a computer chess program, however I assume you have to assign each piece a value?
I assume when the made they first chess program the couldn't just tell the program to make the king worth Infinite.

Edit.

Making a computer chess problem. Program wants the value of a king. Sorry program "that's a bad question".

Mike,

Using points for piece values is an algorithmic way of playing chess. It advises human players of rough equivalences, to assist in move decision making. These values are known to much finer gradations in computer chess, where the algorithmic approach is tested and refined. The current computer champion is Komodo 9.3, rated just over 3200.

Here is the discussion, where the values are given in "centipawns" (centipawn = 1/100-th of a pawn).

https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Point+Value

In computer chess circles, the joke is that eventually the point values will be measured in yacto-pawns. Look that one up!

The second best program is Stockfish, which is open source. Here are the piece values used in Stockfish, circa 2012," again given in centi-pawns. Note that the values assigned vary by the phase of the game, as I stated above:


http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=442989&t=41916

It's good to be the King...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StJS51d1Fzg

I think the king is a bigot.

Quote: AxelWolf

Making a computer chess problem. Program wants the value of a king. Sorry program "that's a bad question".

LOL, at least it's better than telling your program, "That's a stupid question!" ;)

Thanks for the responses thus far. Sorry I forgot to enable the multiple votes option.

The main argument yesterday was whether 1 is a viable choice. To play the devil's advocate, the person in Camp 1 (not to be confused with camp 1/6) argued that the king's offensive strength was worth one point.

Quote: Wizard

Thanks for the responses thus far. Sorry I forgot to enable the multiple votes option.

The main argument yesterday was whether 1 is a viable choice. To play the devil's advocate, the person in Camp 1 (not to be confused with camp 1/6) argued that the king's offensive strength was worth one point.

I would argue that there is a distinction between (overall) "value" and "offensive strength." I can see an argument that would rate the king's "offensive strength" around 1. While he has more movement and attack capabilities than a pawn, he also has more liability at the same time. But I consider this different than "value."

Let me tell you what happened. As stated, I was asked "How many points is a king worth in chess?" There were bets on my answer so I wanted to give it my best.

Since the object of chess is to capture the other player's king, it's value can not be overstated. So I said, "Infinite." You can capture all the other pieces you want, but it is of no consequence if you don't get the king.

So, the alleged correct answer was "1 or the game." I have no problem with "the game," but 1? Suffice it to say we agreed to disagree and post the topic here.

The chess computer programs must give the King a value for defense I think. Thus there may be a correct answer to be found [maybe it was, some of that was over my head]

The value of the King as a goal must be undefined, since the King can be put into checkmate but cannot be captured.

If the king was an ordinary piece whose capture did not determine the outcome of the game, then the King has roughly a power of four points.

Quote: teliot

If the king was an ordinary piece whose capture did not determine the outcome of the game, then the King has roughly a power of four points.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought it so high -- but they are great pawn busters late in the game.

Contrarian view:

In bullet chess I would think a king is worth less than a pawn. Usually there are only two things I'm trying to do:
1 - not screw up
2 - look for patterns

If I can move a pawn to attack or defend, I'm usually accomplishing 1 (while also attacking or defending), which makes it a good move. The king just sits there, gets to castle and sometimes moves to the second rank.

Yes I know bullet chess rots the brain. For me, however, I can find patterns, but can't develop long term strategy, so it's the only version I'm any good at.

Quote: muleyvoice

It's good to be the King...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StJS51d1Fzg

Thank you! Need to check it out.

I said zero, but "no value" or infinite (for the computer) or undefined I think fit as well.

Since the points are used for evaluating piece exchanges, and you can't exchange a king, it has no point value assigned to it.

I replied 1st, I said game.
Apparently that was one of two correct answers initially.
Then there were more, now my head hurts.

Quote: Wizard

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought it so high -- but they are great pawn busters late in the game.

"In the endgame, when there is little danger of checkmate, the fighting value of the king is about four points." - Emanuel Lasker

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_piece_relative_value

Intuitively, A pawn threatens in 2 directions, one square away from the pawn. A King threatens in 8 directions, one square away from the King.