For real?
Link
16 is the highest low age limit of consent across Europe and there are dozen of countries where the limit is as low as 14. Just saying.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI'm betting the 17 year old was the actual predator!!
Think back to when you were 17. I know that I didn't give any teacher a second look and wouldn't have known if she was coming on to me. I remember that when I was a senior I had a teacher that was fresh out of college and looked young. I don't remember any of the boys even mentioning her and I certainly didn't give her a second thought. I had an older college girlfriend too at that time who was probably 2 years younger than the teacher but don't remember thinking about the young teacher. Maybe she was ugly, I do remember thinking she was stupid.
Of course this was before Van Halen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M4_Ommfvv0
But there does have to be some number. I mean if you lower the age of consent to say 16, then you will have incidents were a 15 year old is involved and it will be like well, he/she is ALMOST 16. I mean there has to be a line somewhere.
I do favor that idea of a higher standard for people in a position of authority, like a teacher, counselor, police or priest. That takes things to a whole different level.
Once cases like these make the papers, justice is unlikely.
What age should it be if the person is competent and isn't being manipulate or in danger.There needs to be an age set across the board. I'm not sure what age that should be. 14 is definitely to young.
Winger - Seventeen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlN3oEjMpUQ
When I was 16 Our assistant Gym teacher who was about 30, was sleeping with a good friend of mine. She was 16 and from NY, she was fairly progressive and pursued him relentlessly. Eventually he got caught and lost his job(perhaps more).
Quote: rawtuffAdult woman has had sex with 17 year old men, gets her 22 years in jail in the US?
Link
16 is the highest low age limit of consent across Europe and there are dozen of countries where the limit is as low as 14. Just saying.
A man probably would have gotten 30 years or more. No one is bringing up gender gap now.
You know, I have wondered about scenarios like this. In high school, my girlfriend during my senior year was almost a year younger than me. When I was a junior, I had a younger girl pursue me (I was 16, she was 14). Both, although younger than me, were more curious if not more experienced with intimate matters than I. In fact, the 14 year-old scared me away because of that very reason.Quote: AxelWolfI remember hearing about a case where two the kids were a year apart and dated in school. The boy turns 18, the girl is 17. The boy goes to jail. IMO that's total BS.
I always thought it would be ironic if when I turned 18, I had been intimate with either one of these ladies, and it was found out. Could I have been arrested/charged/jailed for succumbing to their advances?
As to the OP, I agree with the posters above that being in a position of authority is a game changer in this situation. If they had been peers, I would like to believe there would be fewer, if any, consequences.
When an older man sleeps with a teenage girl, it's a "wtf, that rapist should get the death penalty!!" *rabble rabble rabble*
urges happen; getting your rocks off doesn't have to mean jeopardy.
But I think society actually finds it more socially unacceptable for a older female to be with a younger male.Quote: RSWhen an older woman has sex with a teenage boy, it's a "wtf really she goes to jail for 22 years?!"
When an older man sleeps with a teenage girl, it's a "wtf, that rapist should get the death penalty!!" *rabble rabble rabble*
It's thumbs up if your male 30+ with a 18 year old. A female doing the same is frowned on.
There's the magical age of consent. Maybe two 17 year olds can have sex. Boy turns 18, they decide to screw to celebrate - he's committing statutory rape. Yesterday it was legal*, today it's not. Ridiculous.
The notion that you can get in trouble for taking a naked picture of yourself is also ridiculous.
Rewording the laws to make sense, with explicit exemption clauses (persons within 2 years of age of each other who are not otherwise incapable of giving consent nor in an authority relationship may give consent) just complicates things and probably creates unintended loopholes that will get somebody hurt. Better not to do that.
Didn't there used to be prosecutorial and judicial discretion for these problems?
*I am not a lawyer, so my understanding is probably off.
Quote: AxelWolfBut I think society actually finds it more socially unacceptable for a older female to be with a younger male.
It's thumbs up if your male 30+ with a 18 year old. A female doing the same is frowned on.
A successful older man with a younger trophy, almost gold-digging wife is considered a fine arrangement, often and especially if the trophy lady is a Mistress, so socially acceptable in many cultures.
An older woman with a male kid is considered very crass: a young man (boy) is just cutting his teeth with quiet comments of "good for him," and the older woman is considered condemned or dangerous, corrupting, or a "user." So much for his Seminary studies, the loss considered, with no pun intended.
The young boy is considered a man, now, and she, just Damaged crass goods of a Certain Age.
She cannot put on a mini-skirt and some powder, and reasonably hit a club at the Palms or the Rio....
Yep and since I'm a male it all looks good to me. Someone knew what they were doing.Quote: PaigowdanA successful older man with a younger trophy, almost gold-digging wife is considered a fine arrangement, often and especially if the trophy lady is a Mistress, so socially acceptable in many cultures.
An older woman with a male kid is considered very crass: a young man (boy) is just cutting his teeth with quiet comments of "good for him," and the older woman is considered condemned or dangerous, corrupting, or a "user." So much for his Seminary studies, the loss considered, with no pun intended.
The young boy is considered a man, now, and she, just Damaged crass goods of a Certain Age.
She cannot put on a mini-skirt and some powder, and reasonably hit a club at the Palms or the Rio....
What is there to discuss then? The different views society takes on men vs women in the same situation. If this was an older man having sex with a 17 year old girl, then they'd be viewed as a total rapist molester horrible human being. When it's an older woman having sex with a 17 year old boy, then he must be a stud and/or seduced her! Women are trying to set it up so they can do no wrong in the world. We want equal rights... except when we could benefit more from saying we're a woman! ...take me out on a date, oh and show me you're a man by opening my doors and paying for everything. Without trying to spill entirely in to that topic I believe it applies here as well. You know there's a fair amount of people saying "Oh come on she's a dream maker. I wished every day in high school I could bang my hot teachers!" Guy, they try to crucify... Woman, eh the boy wanted it I'm sure.
Second, the sentence of 22 years is way, way, WAY too harsh and it feels just plain wrong. A similar crime in the rest of the western world will most probably be punished with no more than 10-12 years MAX(given it was more than one minor she had sex with). There are drunk drive murders who get half of that, I'm sure in the US too.
Third, the fact that it is a woman HAS to make a difference. I'm all for gender equality in not only rights but responsibilities too, but come on. Based purely on physical/anatomical (even excluding mentality) differences, these type of crimes along with rape DO differentiate between genders.
Having intimate relationship with pupils is never a good thing/idea, the authority figure etc is all right. Even if the boys were 18 I'd still be all for her getting fired and maybe lose the right to teach for number of years.
But 22 years in prison? Essentially taking her life away from her and give her nothing but misery for the rest of it for seducing 17 year olds who are in all honesty ready to work,to have their own family and were the happiest students in the school? Where is the damage that warrants 22 years?
Also, the fact that they are 17 has to make a difference. The number of 18 is there, but when the judge is making decision whether the pupils were 17 or for example 11 does make a big difference and has to be reflected.
The human race still carries a lot of cave-man era subconscious programming and 70 year olds like Tony Randall can still make babies. In the back of every woman's mind is the thought that the committed man in her life could theoretically discard her and move on for a younger, "better" version. (One exception I can think of ATM being Prince Charles.) Marriage is hard and not everyone weathers the ups and downs or just the necessary individual and family unit based challenges/changes of life.
People in positions of authority shouldn't abuse that for personal sexual gratification. But they do. Men who prey on subordinates, male or female, probably do it in a greater percentage and similarly get away with it, too, based on the amount of sex scandals that actually come to light.
Women who use their sexuality as a commodity in exchange for other influence, status, goods or whatever, are usually selling themselves short and propagate the idea that women are only valuable as a means of male sexual gratification. What happens to most trophy wives who become tarnished and dusty? They get replaced.
As for the older female teacher, she knew better. People do dumb things for dumb reasons. It was an ego boost for her.
Quote: ChereyaSex for women is completely different than for men.
We carry almost all of the risk in multiple contexts - pregnancy, emotional, satisfaction, disease, guilt/pressure, etc. I guarantee you that any teenage female pursuing a male of any age for a sexual relationship, or interlude, does not know what she is getting herself into.
The human race still carries a lot of cave-man era subconscious programming and 70 year olds like Tony Randall can still make babies. In the back of every woman's mind is the thought that the committed man in her life could theoretically discard her and move on for a younger, "better" version. (One exception I can think of ATM being Prince Charles.) Marriage is hard and not everyone weathers the ups and downs or just the necessary individual and family unit based challenges/changes of life.
People in positions of authority shouldn't abuse that for personal sexual gratification. But they do. Men who prey on subordinates, male or female, probably do it in a greater percentage and similarly get away with it, too, based on the amount of sex scandals that actually come to light.
Women who use their sexuality as a commodity in exchange for other influence, status, goods or whatever, are usually selling themselves short and propagate the idea that women are only valuable as a means of male sexual gratification. What happens to most trophy wives who become tarnished and dusty? They get replaced.
Agreed. Can't talk from personal experience being a male, but there is this thing called empathy and common sense.
Quote: ChereyaAs for the older female teacher, she knew better. People do dumb things for dumb reasons. It was an ego boost for her.
Whatever her drive was, I can't think of a reasoning where 22 years in prison is justified. To me this case and especially the sentence is absolutely ridiculous. And sad.
Also, the 17 year old was just one of several underage students she had sex with. It was not a one time thing, she was manipulating young boys to her pleasure.
If an adult male was having sex with multiple 14-17 year olds everyone would be losing their minds.... But since its a woman everyone wants to defend her and be like "well the boys probably enjoyed it"... Try reversing the genders and using that argument and see how people would react to you.
As others have pointed out many men get far longer for similar things, and feminists seem eager to ignore the "way society treats women" in this regard....
She was an educated adult woman, she knew what she was doing, and she got caught, she deserves her punishment.
Quote: GandlerIf an older man had sex with a 17 year old girl you would be furious. Why should the standard be different because she is a woman?
Because it is different. And I wont be furious. 17 is adult in my country.
Quote: GandlerAlso, the 17 year old was just one of several underage students she had sex with. It was not a one time thing, she was manipulating young boys to her pleasure.
Yes, several 17 year old men. It shouldn't be a crime in the first place if the law was up to date.
Quote: GandlerTry reversing the genders and using that argument and see how people would react to you..
And if you try to put wheels on a human will it make them a truck?
Quote: GandlerShe was an educated adult woman, she knew what she was doing, and she got caught, she deserves her punishment.
Hardly deserves 22 years in jail. Some probation maybe. Hell, maybe give her 6 months effective. 22 years? LOL
Quote: rawtuffBecause it is different. And I wont be furious. 17 is adult in my country.
Yes, several 17 year old men. It shouldn't be a crime in the first place if the law was up to date.
And if you try to put wheels on a human will it make them a truck?
So its Okay for women to engage in statutory rape?
Let me guess, you are a feminist....
Or was she the victim in this scenario?
Quote: GandlerQuote: rawtuffBecause it is different. And I wont be furious. 17 is adult in my country.
Yes, several 17 year old men. It shouldn't be a crime in the first place if the law was up to date.
And if you try to put wheels on a human will it make them a truck?
So its Okay for women to engage in statutory rape?
Let me guess, you are a feminist....
Or was she the victim in this scenario?
It's not okay. Doesn't deserve 22 years though. And "rape" is kind of incorrect term here.
No I'm not feminist. Quite the contrary in fact.
She could of been the victim, wouldn't know. But even if she is a predator, 18 is too high and obsolete age limit. Check the rest of the world. And the punishment is WAY too harsh in this case.
Quote: rawtuffQuote: GandlerQuote: rawtuffBecause it is different. And I wont be furious. 17 is adult in my country.
Yes, several 17 year old men. It shouldn't be a crime in the first place if the law was up to date.
And if you try to put wheels on a human will it make them a truck?
So its Okay for women to engage in statutory rape?
Let me guess, you are a feminist....
Or was she the victim in this scenario?
It's not okay. Doesn't deserve 22 years though. And "rape" is kind of incorrect term here.
No I'm not feminist. Quite the contrary in fact.
She could of been the victim, wouldn't know. But even if she is a predator, 18 is too high and obsolete age limit. Check the rest of the world. And the punishment is WAY too harsh in this case.
"Statuary rape" is the term for an adult having sex with a minor regardless of the consent.
Quote: GandlerQuote: rawtuffQuote: GandlerQuote: rawtuffBecause it is different. And I wont be furious. 17 is adult in my country.
Yes, several 17 year old men. It shouldn't be a crime in the first place if the law was up to date.
And if you try to put wheels on a human will it make them a truck?
So its Okay for women to engage in statutory rape?
Let me guess, you are a feminist....
Or was she the victim in this scenario?
It's not okay. Doesn't deserve 22 years though. And "rape" is kind of incorrect term here.
No I'm not feminist. Quite the contrary in fact.
She could of been the victim, wouldn't know. But even if she is a predator, 18 is too high and obsolete age limit. Check the rest of the world. And the punishment is WAY too harsh in this case.
"Statuary rape" is the term for an adult having sex with a minor regardless of the consent.
Yeah, I get it but the word "rape" gives an unnecessary negative weight IMO. Pedophilia is what is used mostly in non English language cultures.
Talking about statuary rape of 17 year old men is IMO ridiculous.
As for the person in the link, her biggest problem, which OP tends to not clearly point out is...she did this with more than one person. Also was accused of inappropriate conduct with an 8th grader, 7 years ago. If only one person was involved, then yeah, 22 years is definitely too much. As is, I say good for her for getting 3 less years than the plea bargain!
But ironically, this is the same state that couldn't convict Casey Anthony!!! Lolololololololololololol
Quote: rawtuffQuote: GandlerQuote: rawtuffQuote: GandlerQuote: rawtuffBecause it is different. And I wont be furious. 17 is adult in my country.
Yes, several 17 year old men. It shouldn't be a crime in the first place if the law was up to date.
And if you try to put wheels on a human will it make them a truck?
So its Okay for women to engage in statutory rape?
Let me guess, you are a feminist....
Or was she the victim in this scenario?
It's not okay. Doesn't deserve 22 years though. And "rape" is kind of incorrect term here.
No I'm not feminist. Quite the contrary in fact.
She could of been the victim, wouldn't know. But even if she is a predator, 18 is too high and obsolete age limit. Check the rest of the world. And the punishment is WAY too harsh in this case.
"Statuary rape" is the term for an adult having sex with a minor regardless of the consent.
Yeah, I get it but the word "rape" gives an unnecessary negative weight IMO. Pedophilia is what is used mostly in non English language cultures.
Talking about statuary rape of 17 year old men is IMO ridiculous.
You are forgetting she did it with many students, including those well under 17.
But even on the note of 17, What if a male teacher had consesual sex with "17 year old men" students, would your opinion be the same?
Quote: Gandler
You are forgetting she did it with many students, including those well under 17.
There were three students and all of them were 17.
Quote: GandlerBut even on the note of 17, What if a male teacher had consesual sex with "17 year old men" students, would your opinion be the same?
No. But that's not the case here. Every case is to be judged individually. And I'd still think 22 years is too much.
Quote: rawtuffThere were three students and all of them were 17.
No. But that's not the case here. Every case is to be judged individually. And I'd still think 22 years is too much.
And 8th grader, is almost certainly not 17, unless they have a mental defect which would make it even worse. I think I was 12 in 8th grade, which could be classified as pedophilia.
But, every case can't be judged individually, there needs to be a set of rules. This prevents people in a position of power over children (such as here) from using their influence to get away with it.
Quote: GandlerAnd 8th grader, is almost certainly not 17, unless they have a mental defect which would make it even worse. I think I was 12 in 8th grade, which could be classified as pedophilia.
You skip a grade? Nice work! Most 8th graders are 13 to 14. But even at 13-14, I still think this is an important detail. However, she wasn't convicted of anything there.
What I'm more impressed with is she was able to get another teaching job after the initial accusation. I need to learn from her for that at least!!! :-\
Quote: GandlerAnd 8th grader, is almost certainly not 17, unless they have a mental defect which would make it even worse. I think I was 12 in 8th grade, which could be classified as pedophilia.
But, every case can't be judged individually, there needs to be a set of rules. This prevents people in a position of power over children (such as here) from using their influence to get away with it.
Where are you getting the 8th grader from? She had sex with 8th grader? Where does it say so?
Every case is judged individually in court. The judgement is based on a set of rules/laws, yes, but every detail and circumstance is taken into account to form the final degree of guilt, social weight of the crime etc.
Quote: rawtuffWhere are you getting the 8th grader from? She had sex with 8th grader? Where does it say so?
Every case is judged individually in court. The judgement is based on a set of rules/laws, yes, but every detail and circumstance is taken into account to form the final degree of guilt, social weight of the crime etc.
The article the OP posted as well as others you can find online.
Quote: GandlerThe article the OP posted as well as others you can find online.
"accused of having inappropriate conduct with an eighth grader" is what it says. "Accusation". And "inappropriate conduct". Nothing about having sex and nothing about proving it either.
Quote: rawtuff"accused of having inappropriate conduct with an eighth grader" is what it says. "Accusation". And "inappropriate conduct". Nothing about having sex and nothing about proving it either.
"The earliest incident dates back to 2008, when she resigned from a teaching post in Orange County after allegations of inappropriate contact with an 8th grader" -NYDN
She resigned and moved, I think we both know why...
And she was only tried for 3 recent allegations, she may (and probably should) be tried at some point for her other allegations...
Quote: rawtuffShe could of been the victim, wouldn't know. But even if she is a predator, 18 is too high and obsolete age limit. Check the rest of the world. And the punishment is WAY too harsh in this case.
consider France. the age of consent is 15. after that, the only factor is consent. parent, sibling, friend, stranger... no inquiry at all, just actual consent, nothing else. Unless there are "indicia of prostitution" in which case the age is 18 or "indicia of economic coercion by a pimp in which case the age is 21.
In california if there is a narrow age window, its at most a misdemeanor and punishment is usually Probation and a stay away until she is of age order.
Quote: Gandler"The earliest incident dates back to 2008, when she resigned from a teaching post in Orange County after allegations of inappropriate contact with an 8th grader" -NYDN
She resigned and moved, I think we both know why...
And she was only tried for 3 recent allegations, she may (and probably should) be tried at some point for her other allegations...
No, we might think we know why, but we can be very wrong. Presumed innocence is for a reason.
If I have to make a guess, I'd guess it was what the article says it to be - an inappropriate conduct. Might be some exhibitionist act or an inappropriate conversation with maybe at most some touching or stuff. Not an actual sexual act - it would have been known if it was.
She was on trial for 3 allegations of sexual intercourses with 17 year olds. And that's what she has to be convicted for. That's not a crime in 90 something percent of the rest of the world.
And there was no damage, mental or otherwise, the rest of the world can figure to worth 22 years in jail, even if the age limit was 18 there.
For a great democracy and a country to lead an example, USA is really giving this woman a punishment worthy for the dark ages.
She needs to have a lesson for her inappropriate behavior, but 22 years is ...just laughable. A release from her job and maybe a probation with restriction to teach for number of years is what is at most warranted in this case.
This sentence of 22 years is really an abomination. And I'm actually more baffled by the number of people finding this to be justified, than the actual sentence it self - the ridiculous court decisions are all over the world. What people actually think of them is what is worrisome.
rawtuff, do you have kids? If so, when you send them off to school every day, don't you expect them to be protected and feel safe? And don't you expect them to be treated with respect by the teachers and sent home to you in the same physical and mental state that they left that morning in? Of course you do! All parents do.
I raised my children believing this. And my children believe the same when they send my grandchildren off to school every day.
What she did is unconscionable! She is an authority figure who abused children. Age plays no part in it when considering matters of children. Boy or girl, it doesn't matter. They are still children.
If it were my son or grandson, 22 years wouldn't be nearly enough. And I would be there to protest every time she comes up for parole. Hopefully the kids parents will do the same.
She was a teacher, an authority figure and a predator. She's right where she belongs.
Don't have children, but if my now 5 year old nephew gets involved with his female school teacher when he is 17 I'd be, honestly, happy for him. I wouldn't even think he has been suffering any damage due to this, inappropriate by any means, relationship. On the contrary.
I'd be all for her getting fired. Her place is not in the school. But if she would have been sentenced to 22 years in prison, I'd be like, WOW, this world is beyond any sanity.
People get drunk and drive and cause other people death and in the end get 5-11 years. 22 years is BEYOND sanity. Honestly.
I don't know what a man or a male teacher would get as a sentence but 22 years does seen like a long time. However if a male teacher had shown a pattern of abuse that sentence wouldn't be so surprising because people would say the he "took advantage" of the girls where not many people are saying that this teacher took advantage of the boys. It is seen differently.
The bottom line here is she should have known better.
In my state there are age difference guidelines that the state uses in adult / minor sexual situations. I don't recall offhand but it is something like a 3 or 4 year difference and I believe it is adjusted down as the ages go down. So a 20 yo with a 17 yo might be ok where a 21 and 17 or 17 and 13 might not be. This seems more reasonable to me.
The reason that the DUI manslaughter cases are so out of whack is that alcohol is so prevalent in our society and many of our lawmakers, juries and probably even many judges have driven after drinking and they think to themselves that they are lucky that this has never happened to them and wouldn't want someone else to send them away for life like they would if it was a homicide with a gun. DUI deaths are not usually treated as the serious crime that it is since most adults have at one time or another driven after drinking, this is a big problem in the USA, and probably in many other countries too.
Quote: ajemeisteryes, she committed a crime. yes, she took advantage of a mintiputable minor. yes, she gets what she deserves. This is absolutely terrible, and I do not want my future children growing up in a world where they must not only please teacher, but please her sexually. In all honesty, if she's looking for love at work/school, she has no business working there to begin with.. All the more reason I feel like i'm being forced to send my future kids to private school or homeschool.. I honestly see no defense for this. Yes she may be in her 20s, but she's the authority figure in the classroom, and teens are very much impressionable up until, or even after the end of highschool
No, no no no no no.
This is plain ridiculous, that's what it is.
She didn't commit any crime ffs. Those "children" were 17. You get it? 17! People died for their country in that age a century ago.
What's absolutely terrible is the age of consent in US.
Plenty more cases like the above since 2015 and plenty ridiculous as well. It's just that in this country the legislative system is kinda... bizarre.
Quote: FleaStiffPerhaps we should ask that Frenchman who at 14 had an affair with a married woman .... didn't seem to harm him in any way..... what did he become: president or premier or something like that?
Or perhaps we should just ask the world. What is the age we shouldn't expect people to be put in jail for having intimate relationships with other people, when does this magical age come true.
For me it should definitely be under 18 and above 14 (or even above 15). You can't, you just CAN NOT be put in prison for 20 years for having a love affair with a person in their 17's ffs, no.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc
Quote: rawtuffYou can't, you just CAN NOT be put in prison for 20 years for having a love affair with a person in their 17's ffs, no.
I agree. People get single-digit sentences for killing someone.
I think there is a huge difference between a teacher having sex with a student, and a customer picking up a bus boy, for example.
The state dictates we send our children to school. We expect them to be protected from sexual predictors while there.
