State or USA citizen first

Seriously, this as a nation this is what we are going to argue about. A stupid flag? This nation has its priorities backwards. Gay marriage, abortion, Marijuana, a flag, etc, all hot button items when it comes to "issues" during candidate debates. Guess what, I don't give a flying rats behind.

The number one issue granted it might be 1a and 1b would be our national debt and budget, Ala fiscal issues. People need to wake up smell the roses. Quit letting the media influence which party you vote with because by god I favor gay rights and abortion, but everything else I agree with conservatives.

Wake up people. You can't tax and spend. And you can't cut taxes and spend.

Simple solution. Delegate more power back to the states. Which is the way it has always been since the founding fathers envisioned this country. Free market reigns. Federal government provides what each state can't such as military, tariffs, commerce between states, etc. States provide roads, education, Assistance etc. Any time you put a layer of government between the people the less goes back to the people.

people always ask me to identify a party. I say a conservative republican. And always rail me about abortion, gay marriage, Marijuana, bible thumping, etc. And I for one wear my identity proud. I am that a conservative fiscal republican. I don't give a crap what you do in your life. and I hope you don't in mine. But since libertarian isn't really a viable voting platform, yet.

I will always side with a candidate that shares my fiscal beliefs before what I would call side issues. No one will agree 100% of the time with a candidate, but you find thay candidate that believes strongly about your main beliefs and use secondary issues as a tie breaker.

I just can't believe fiscal issues isn't everyone's number one priority when just the US government is umpteen trillion dollars in debt.

End rant. I'm also drunk if that makes no sense. Sorry if I pulled a mickey and offended someone.

In the true spirit of the confederate flag, there should be a poll option: Bigot first, citizen second

Quote: mcallister3200

In the true spirit of the confederate flag, there should be a poll option: Bigot first, citizen second

Actually, all us who do not mind the Confederate Flag are asking is that liberals give the same consideration here as they do to muslims.

Muslims kill 3,000 Americas and the cry goes out "NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD!:

Crazy guy kills 9 and the cry goes out "ALL CONFEDERATE FLAGS MUST BE BANNED AND ANYONE WITH ONE IS AN EVIL RACIST!"

Quote: AZDuffman

Actually, all us who do not mind the Confederate Flag are asking is that liberals give the same consideration here as they do to muslims.

Muslims kill 3,000 Americas and the cry goes out "NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD!:

Crazy guy kills 9 and the cry goes out "ALL CONFEDERATE FLAGS MUST BE BANNED AND ANYONE WITH ONE IS AN EVIL RACIST!"

Republicans control the south.
Its your side taking down the flag :-)

Quote: terapined

Republicans control the south.
Its your side taking down the flag :-)

Why should we? Most people who fly it are just good, hard-working types who dislike a repressive central government.

Couple of thoughts:

This thread wasn't started as a place to post the Confederate flag issue, but it is a much better place than in the 2016 Election thread.

Yep, if a native Texan told me I'd make a good Texan, I'd take that as purty big compliment, and my voice sounds almost Texan.

The thread was started about how allegiances and loyalties evolve over time. How many of you remember when not too many years ago the Southern Conservative Democrats completely controlled the South and all elections in the south. Southerners didn't vote for the party of Lincoln. And those Democrats fought desegregation tooth and nail. Today the Rebulican Party pretty much controls all the south and the Democratic Party 'tries' very hard to claim it is the party of the minorities in this country. And a lot of minorities buy that crap. That's a pretty big shift.

What are going to be the big shifts looking back, fifty or hundred years from now?

Quote: terapined

Rush Limbaugh has jumped the shark.
He thinks the American flag is next LOL

"One day, what is happening to the rebel flag will come to pass for the American flag, too"l

He's right.

Ninth Circuit Court upholds school Flag ban

IC Irvine

SC High School

Quote: tringlomane

Great rebuttal Joeman. But Dan did say "just about any instance"...

I thought the picture illustrated Dan's point rather than rebutting it.

Quote: AZDuffman

Most people who fly it are just good, hard-working types who dislike a repressive central government.

?????
And your point?
"Most people" can continue to fly the flag.
You raise it on your front lawn, thats your right (as long as no HOA problem)
I cant force you to take down your personal confederate flag. You have rights. Nobody is taking away your personal rights

Quote: terapined

?????
And your point?

My point is why do you call it a racist symbol then? With muslims a liberal will defend "all the good muslims" when something negatice is said about islam, why do you not give the same consideration to good people who fly the Confederate Flag?

We've always been at war with Eurasia.

Germany has repent. It wants nothing to do with the past. There is a huge debate in Russia should Stalin be equated with Hitler, there are parts of history people of the particular country want to forget. Repent, admit the guilt, remove anything which has been associated with the horror and move on.

Quote: AZDuffman

My point is why do you call it a racist symbol then?

Do you have a blacks you consider friends?
I'm sure they can educate you.
Even hard core republican Clarence Thomas voted against it.
Ask him.

Quote: terapined

Do you have a blacks you consider friends?
I'm sure they can educate you.
Even hard core republican Clarence Thomas voted against it.
Ask him.

They have their opinion, I have mine. They do not have the same tastes in football, either. Anyhow, I asked you.

Quote: AZDuffman

They have their opinion, I have mine. They do not have the same tastes in football, either. Anyhow, I asked you.

(admins, please ignore flag button. not intending to flag, just sometimes hit it by mistake. How many people intend to reply and hit flag by mistake?
Maybe flag button should not be close to reply button)

Anyway I do not consider myself white.
In my eyes, flag = racisim and slavery.

Regardless of all your reasoniing, thats what I see.
I know you see something else, fine. I know a lot of other people see what they want to see. fine


Taxes.
Govts should not spend money on all this historic monuments and flags BS.
All this should be funded privately
Save the money , lower taxes.

Quote: petroglyph

(( -- Memory holed -- ))

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

Quote: terapined

Anyway I do not consider myself white.
In my eyes, flag = racisim and slavery.

Regardless of all your reasoniing, thats what I see.
I know you see something else, fine. I know a lot of other people see what they want to see. fine

This being the case, perhaps you will take a live-and-let-live attitude? The flag is causing nobody any physical harm. Being "offended" is not harm. I get "offended" at plenty of things, yet I am told to live-and-let-live.

Quote: AZDuffman

This being the case, perhaps you will take a live-and-let-live attitude? The flag is causing nobody any physical harm. Being "offended" is not harm. I get "offended" at plenty of things, yet I am told to live-and-let-live.

I see a bumper sticker or a personal flag, sure live and let live.
But using the peoples tax money to promote a flag that many see as racially decisive, the flag paid for with the peoples tax dollars needs to go.

Quote: terapined

But using the peoples tax money to promote a flag that many see as racially decisive, the flag paid for with the peoples tax dollars needs to go.

Then you are going to be banning lots of flags, eventually up to and including the Stars and Stripes.

Quote: terapined

In my eyes, flag = racisim and slavery.

Regardless of all your reasoniing, thats what I see.
I know you see something else, fine. I know a lot of other people see what they want to see. fine

Your eyes see that. They miss the bigger picture.



Do you know what that is? Do you know the answer to that question is "Depends who you ask"?

If you were of a religious society, that flag is a symbol of God's promise. It was a sign from Him to Noah that God would never again flood the Earth. If you were Italian, or from a number of other European countries, that flag would be a sign of peace and unity. But since you're American (by right, if not by heart), that to you is likely a sign of gay pride.

I wonder what these religious folks think, having "their" flag, which represents the word of God, being used to support homosexuality. Seems kind of a slap in the face, don't it? But because a group co-opted their flag, does that take away their loyalty to it? Do they have a right to demand it not be used?

Do you know what this is?



It's a Gadsden flag. It is also my flag. It's the only flag I fly.

I don't care that it was adopted by the US Navy. They have nothing to do with me nor why I fly it. I don't care that it's a song by Metallica, I don't care that Carl Edwards has it on his #99 Ford, I don't care that a bunch of Tea Partiers adopted it as their own symbol. My connection to this flag and why I fly it has zero to do with any of them or any of their reasons for using it. My reason is why it was made in the first place, reasons Ben Franklin expressed when it was created.

Quote: Ben Franklin

"I recollected that her eye excelled in brightness, that of any other animal, and that she has no eye-lids—She may therefore be esteemed an emblem of vigilance.—She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage.—As if anxious to prevent all pretensions of quarreling with her, the weapons with which nature has furnished her, she conceals in the roof of her mouth, so that, to those who are unacquainted with her, she appears to be a most defenseless animal; and even when those weapons are shown and extended for her defense, they appear weak and contemptible; but their wounds however small, are decisive and fatal:—Conscious of this, she never wounds till she has generously given notice, even to her enemy, and cautioned him against the danger of stepping on her.—Was I wrong, Sir, in thinking this a strong picture of the temper and conduct of America?"

That what I believe in. It doesn't matter who else adopts it or what meaning the prescribe to it. The gay pedophile chapter of the Westboro Baptists could adopt this flag, and I'd still fly it, because f$%^ them.

The Confederate Battle Flag is a sign of the south and of rebellion. It represents the same uppity attitude that turned a vast wildland into USA#1, it's the reason much of Europe speaks English instead of German. The fact that the KKK and AB adopted it as their own is no different than the gays taking the rainbow and adopting it as their own. Why is one OK and the other not? What would you say if I said Old Glory was nothing more than a sign of occupation, rape, and genocide, and AZDuffman, SOOPOO, ontariodealer and all the rest of you Northeastern palefaces needed to gtfo of my ancestral homelands? Hell, what if I burned that disgusting rag representing such violence and disgust?

To receive tolerance one much first practice it. You're losing the game.

***********************************

Back on topic, I'm surprised at the poll results. I can't recall ever referring to myself as "American" when asked by foreigner where I hailed from. It's always "WNY". Well, it's always "NY" and then a long explanation that I live in the sticks and not NYC, and have more in common with a Carolina cotton farmer than anything they're thinking of. Say you're American and people think you're fat, lazy, put cheese on everything, and own a hundred guns. Only one of those applies to me. Say I'm from WNY and everyone knows I refer to roads as "the" I-90, that I drink pop and not soda, that I measure distance in time, that I've driven a snowmobile to work on Monday and rode in with the windows down on Thursday, and pronouncing roads and areas like Scajaqueda and Canandaigua is second nature.

Course, I suppose I have more loyalty to America than I do NY, since NY flies in the face of everything I learned America to be. But then again, even America is flying in America's own face lately. I suppose me, AZD, and a few other free men are just gonna have to buy a plot in Wyoming and start a freedom preserve or something.

Quote: Face

Course, I suppose I have more loyalty to America than I do NY, since NY flies in the face of everything I learned America to be. But then again, even America is flying in America's own face lately. I suppose me, AZD, and a few other free men are just gonna have to buy a plot in Wyoming and start a freedom preserve or something.

Even with the cold weather I am up for it! Need about 10 sections to start. If you do the snow plowing I will be sure we have full mineral rights.......

Quote: Face

I wonder what these religious folks think, having "their" flag, which represents the word of God, being used to support homosexuality. Seems kind of a slap in the face, don't it? But because a group co-opted their flag, does that take away their loyalty to it? Do they have a right to demand it not be used?

I dont have the right to make an individual take down their personal confederate flag.
A Christian does not have the right to have a private person take down their rainbow flag.

State money collected by taxes and spent on flags. Only 2 flags should be bought, state flag and USA flag.
All other flags, confederate, rainbow, swastika, white, pirate ect should be paid for privately and displayed on private property,

By the way, have been at music festivals and have seen disputes regarding the pirate flag game.
A lot of people play this game. Some are not aware of this game.
The game, you raise a pirate flag at a music festival at your camp site. Somebody will try to steal it and display it at their camp site. The game is to steal it back. It goes back and forth.

Quote: terapined

State money collected by taxes and spent on flags. Only 2 flags should be bought, state flag and USA flag.
All other flags, confederate, rainbow, swastika, white, pirate ect should be paid for privately and displayed on private property,

QUIZ TIME: What are the only two flags to have flown over the US Capitol?

Quote: AZDuffman

QUIZ TIME: What are the only two flags to have flown over the US Capitol?

answer

US Stars and Stripes and POW-MIA.

You are I assume against the POW-MIA flag?

Which is which?

Quote: petroglyph

Which is which?

I don't understand the question. Please rephrase and I will clarify.

Two points.

1. The Confederate flag is the symbol of a regime that lost. Nobody buys a T-shirt for a team that lost the championship. Find another symbol of Southern pride.

2. I was born in Ohio. And Ohio can go straight to hell.

Quote: terapined

I see a bumper sticker or a personal flag, sure live and let live.
But using the peoples tax money to promote a flag that many see as racially decisive, the flag paid for with the peoples tax dollars needs to go.

Do you feel the same way about using peoples tax money to murder the unborn?

Quote: Sabretom2

Do you feel the same way about using peoples tax money to murder the unborn?

Yup, pro choice with private money.

Human being first. Labels (white/black/Jewish/Catholic/American/Russian/etc.) don't mean $h!t!!

Quote: terapined

Yup, pro choice with private money.

Pleasantly surprising answer. I'm impressed.

Quote: hwccdealer

Two points.

1. The Confederate flag is the symbol of a regime that lost. Nobody buys a T-shirt for a team that lost the championship. Find another symbol of Southern pride.

2. I was born in Ohio. And Ohio can go straight to hell.

One point.

If you are not from the south what business is it of yours what southern people choose to fly and wear? BTW: 31 NFL teams do not get the championship every year, should we only be allowed to wear the SB champion's shirt?

Quote: AZDuffman

I don't understand the question. Please rephrase and I will clarify.

I was being sarcastic. Old glory don't mean the freedom it used to.

The POW flag is the one I have flown. Not my call as I am not a vet, but the the US Gov. should be ashamed that it abandoned soldiers in SE Asia.

I have a POW lapel pin that goes with me.

I feel the same way about taking down the CSA flag as I do abandoning the POW flag, and I am not from the south, but that was a last symbol of freedom to me, not a symbol of slavery.

I have never owned a CSA flag, I just respect their right to fly it.

Quote: petroglyph

Not my call as I am not a vet, but the the US Gov. should be ashamed that it abandoned soldiers in SE Asia.

From somebody born in Asia
the US Gov. should be ashamed it sent soldiers to attack another country that did not attack the United States.

Quote: terapined

From somebody born in Asia
the US Gov. should be ashamed it sent soldiers to attack another country that did not attack the United States.

Agreed

Quote: terapined

From somebody born in Asia
the US Gov. should be ashamed it sent soldiers to attack another country that did not attack the United States.

So you would rather 50 million people be living under starvation than in prosperity they could not have imagined in 1950?

Quote: terapined

From somebody born in Asia
the US Gov. should be ashamed it sent soldiers to attack another country that did not attack the United States.

Our involvement in Vietnam may have been a mistake, but I believe it was an honest mistake, and I am not ashamed.
I still happen to believe that I am the US Gov't, not that I merely work for it.

Quote: AZDuffman

So you would rather 50 million people be living under starvation than in prosperity they could not have imagined in 1950?

France and USA have no right to determine how Viet Nam governs itself.

Quote: terapined

France and USA have no right to determine how Viet Nam governs itself.

Who said Vietnam?

Quote: AZDuffman

Who said Vietnam?

?
Internet message board, nobody said anything :-)
Petroglyph typed "SE Asia"
I typed VietNam

Quote: terapined

?
Internet message board, nobody said anything :-)
Petroglyph typed "SE Asia"
I typed VietNam

Clearly I was not talking about Vietnam.

Quote: terapined

State money collected by taxes and spent on flags. Only 2 flags should be bought, state flag and USA flag.
All other flags, confederate, rainbow, swastika, white, pirate ect should be paid for privately and displayed on private property.

Understandable. But what next? Some 18 states have some hundred monuments and memorials remembering the Confederacy, many paid for by .gov (taxes) and maintained by .gov (taxes) and which rest on .gov property (taxes). Is your next step to raze them all?

Quote: terapined

France and USA have no right to determine how Viet Nam governs itself.

Because one group imposing its beliefs on another is wrong. If only you could manage consistency...

Quote: beerseason

Seriously, this as a nation this is what we are going to argue about. A stupid flag? This nation has its priorities backwards. Gay marriage, abortion, Marijuana, a flag, etc, all hot button items when it comes to "issues" during candidate debates. Guess what, I don't give a flying rats behind.

The number one issue granted it might be 1a and 1b would be our national debt and budget, Ala fiscal issues. People need to wake up smell the roses. Quit letting the media influence which party you vote with because by god I favor gay rights and abortion, but everything else I agree with conservatives.

Wake up people. You can't tax and spend. And you can't cut taxes and spend.

Simple solution. Delegate more power back to the states. Which is the way it has always been since the founding fathers envisioned this country. Free market reigns. Federal government provides what each state can't such as military, tariffs, commerce between states, etc. States provide roads, education, Assistance etc. Any time you put a layer of government between the people the less goes back to the people.

people always ask me to identify a party. I say a conservative republican. And always rail me about abortion, gay marriage, Marijuana, bible thumping, etc. And I for one wear my identity proud. I am that a conservative fiscal republican. I don't give a crap what you do in your life. and I hope you don't in mine. But since libertarian isn't really a viable voting platform, yet.

I will always side with a candidate that shares my fiscal beliefs before what I would call side issues. No one will agree 100% of the time with a candidate, but you find thay candidate that believes strongly about your main beliefs and use secondary issues as a tie breaker.

I just can't believe fiscal issues isn't everyone's number one priority when just the US government is umpteen trillion dollars in debt.

End rant. I'm also drunk if that makes no sense. Sorry if I pulled a mickey and offended someone.

Sir, you are a classical liberal... and that ain't an insult where I'm from. The Liberals in Canada used to believe much of what you state.

I won't +1 thecesspit's comment, because I know no other definition than USA#1's "big L" liberal, but had I not gotten so caught up in the flag debate, I'd have given you a "hear, hear" as well.

Quote: thecesspit

Sir, you are a classical liberal... and that ain't an insult where I'm from. The Liberals in Canada used to believe much of what you state.

All parties get into fringe politics for one reason. (maybe more, but definitely one reason)

Do I need to say?

Okay, all bigger parties. If you're small enough...then you probably don't have much power either.

Quote: terapined

Rush Limbaugh has jumped the shark.
He thinks the American flag is next LOL

"One day, what is happening to the rebel flag will come to pass for the American flag, too"

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/rush-limbaugh-confederate-flag-american-flag-119359.html

Rush has not "jumped the shark" after all! School District Bans All Flags, Including Old Glory

Quote: terapined

From somebody born in Asia
the US Gov. should be ashamed it sent soldiers to attack another country that did not attack the United States.

If you have a problem with mutual-assistance treaties like SEATO, that should be transferable to the deal for Iran nukes.

Quote: SanchoPanza

If you have a problem with mutual-assistance treaties like SEATO, that should be transferable to the deal for Iran nukes.

Are you speaking of Aramco/Standard oil and the Indochina reserves?


http://www.oilcompanies.net/oil1.htm

Quote: petroglyph

Are you speaking of Aramco/Standard oil and the Indochina reserves? http://www.oilcompanies.net/oil1.htm

Nope. The Asian version of NATO, the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Nope. The Asian version of NATO, the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization.

I got that, [ I googled] I didn't get the Iran connection unless it had to do with oil?

Which is why I think the French [member of SEATO] were in Indochina. Standard OIl versus Bristish Petroleum.