Poll

18 votes (50%)
6 votes (16.66%)
No votes (0%)
4 votes (11.11%)
8 votes (22.22%)

36 members have voted

TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
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June 24th, 2015 at 6:17:55 AM permalink
All the flag hoopla over the past few days brought up some old thoughts in my feeble brain that had lay dormant for quite awhile. Feel free to correct me where appropriate. Back when the American Colonies declared independence from the British Empire they became 'States'. They sent delegates to gather together and form a 'Union' draft a 'Constitution', and form The United States of America. This was not The United Citizens of America, it was The United States of America, a union of States. I suspect that if a poll had been taken at that time most would have responded that their loyalty was to their State first, and the Union second. There were Virginians etc, and proud of it. Thirteen States, with varying interests and priorities and populations came together and formed a 'Union', and a small 'National' government to oversee interests they all bore in common, like defense of the new 'Nation'. I'm pretty sure the majority considered their loyalty to belong to their own 'State' first.

The world turns, the small national government grew. There was another war with Britain, and other wars, and other States were formed as additions to the Union as the expansion west continued. Slavery became a more hotly divisive issue and was banned in many States, BANNED BY THOSE STATES. I believe in my heart that the vast majority of the combined citizenry had to know that slavery was wrong. Just bad, an evil in the world. But an institution or practice that large, that woven into the economic engines, is hard to overturn.

For an assortment of reasons, and slavery was just one, a southern block of those States that had joined in a 'Union' decided to quit that 'Union' and form the Confederate States of America as a new 'Union' of those, and I think they probably used the term 'Sovereign States'. The United States of America found that idea unacceptable and the bloodiest war this country has ever seen followed. A half a million men died, give or take. The complete United States of America was restored. It was all very ugly, war is ALWAYS very ugly. The National. Government continued to grow in size and power in relation to the State Governments.

If this poll had been taken in the late 1800's I really don't know how it would have tallied up. US citizen 1st, or State citizen first, or equal.

The country fought some more wars, and was arguably the world's savior in a couple of World Wars. The National Government continued to consolidate power at the national level and the State Governments gradually became less relevant and less powerful.

So I take this poll today, and I have to check USA citizen first. Not even close. Amazing the change a couple hundred years can make...... 2F
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Gabes22
Gabes22
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June 24th, 2015 at 6:45:15 AM permalink
I think a large portion of what you are getting at is the nation is far more transient today than it was in the 1800s. For instance, I don't live in the state where I was born, but I do keep up my loyalties with sports fandom to my native state (besides you don't switch from a Packers to a Bears fan). On a board like this where there is a large portion of people living in a town like Vegas where many people live and very few are from as well. The OP here, I am just guessing lives in Atlanta, which is another town where many live and few are from. As far as the crux of the question goes everything local impacts me more than most everything on the national level but then again, i don't have any allegiance to where I live.
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
zoobrew
zoobrew
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:03:08 AM permalink
I am for taking the flag down, not because of the hate symbol issue, but because it was in essence a foreign country's flag. Texas or California don't fly the Mexican flag, the 13 colonies don't fly the Union Jack, Florida or Puerto Rico the Spanish flag, etc.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:07:27 AM permalink
I think in just about any instance where there's a Confederate flag, an American flag can be substituted to better effect.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ncfatcat
ncfatcat
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:19:34 AM permalink
The interesting thing about slavery is that the Abolitionists all disagreed with slavery on Religious grounds. Their refusal to negotiate a deal on slavery (if you are religious you can't negotiate with "evil") is what led to the Civil War. Again we are ignoring the wisdom of our Forefathers about the separation of church and state with the Abortion issue.
Gambling is a metaphor for life. Hang around long enough and it's all gone.
RonC
RonC
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:22:35 AM permalink
Quote: zoobrew

I am for taking the flag down, not because of the hate symbol issue, but because it was in essence a foreign country's flag. Texas or California don't fly the Mexican flag, the 13 colonies don't fly the Union Jack, Florida or Puerto Rico the Spanish flag, etc.



The coats of arms of these six nations are on the Texas Capitol building:

1 Spain (1519 to 1821)
2 France (1684 to 1690 for Fort Saint Louis and 1800 to 1803 for French Louisiana)
3 Mexico (1821 to 1836)
4 Republic of Texas (1836 to 1845 as the Republic of Texas; 1845-present as the State of Texas)
5 United States of America (1845 to 1861 and 1865 to present)
6 Confederate States of America (1861 to 1865)

They are also on the reverse of the State Seal.

They aren't flags, of course, but they are symbolic of the state's history.
zoobrew
zoobrew
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:38:51 AM permalink
I am not for them getting rid of their history and I think taking down statues of Confederates generals and statesmen is wrong, but I think flying a foreign country's flag on government property is wrong.

P.S. the civil war had more to do about state rights that with slavery. There is a reason the 13th Amendment wasn't ratified until after the civil war ended, the first vote on the Amendment was 3 years after the war started.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:45:02 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I think in just about any instance where there's a Confederate flag, an American flag can be substituted to better effect.


I thought about it and came to the conclusion that you are correct.
I still worry about the monuments and memorials and statues and such.
An American flag at a Confederate memorial is appropriate for me.
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
MrV
MrV
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:47:15 AM permalink
The power and significance of American states has been inversely proportionate to the speed with which its members are able to travel and communicate.

In 1776, the pace was glacial; today it is very quick indeed.
"What, me worry?"
Joeman
Joeman
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June 24th, 2015 at 7:48:58 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I think in just about any instance where there's a Confederate flag, an American flag can be substituted to better effect.




Yup.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"

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