State or USA citizen first

All the flag hoopla over the past few days brought up some old thoughts in my feeble brain that had lay dormant for quite awhile. Feel free to correct me where appropriate. Back when the American Colonies declared independence from the British Empire they became 'States'. They sent delegates to gather together and form a 'Union' draft a 'Constitution', and form The United States of America. This was not The United Citizens of America, it was The United States of America, a union of States. I suspect that if a poll had been taken at that time most would have responded that their loyalty was to their State first, and the Union second. There were Virginians etc, and proud of it. Thirteen States, with varying interests and priorities and populations came together and formed a 'Union', and a small 'National' government to oversee interests they all bore in common, like defense of the new 'Nation'. I'm pretty sure the majority considered their loyalty to belong to their own 'State' first.

The world turns, the small national government grew. There was another war with Britain, and other wars, and other States were formed as additions to the Union as the expansion west continued. Slavery became a more hotly divisive issue and was banned in many States, BANNED BY THOSE STATES. I believe in my heart that the vast majority of the combined citizenry had to know that slavery was wrong. Just bad, an evil in the world. But an institution or practice that large, that woven into the economic engines, is hard to overturn.

For an assortment of reasons, and slavery was just one, a southern block of those States that had joined in a 'Union' decided to quit that 'Union' and form the Confederate States of America as a new 'Union' of those, and I think they probably used the term 'Sovereign States'. The United States of America found that idea unacceptable and the bloodiest war this country has ever seen followed. A half a million men died, give or take. The complete United States of America was restored. It was all very ugly, war is ALWAYS very ugly. The National. Government continued to grow in size and power in relation to the State Governments.

If this poll had been taken in the late 1800's I really don't know how it would have tallied up. US citizen 1st, or State citizen first, or equal.

The country fought some more wars, and was arguably the world's savior in a couple of World Wars. The National Government continued to consolidate power at the national level and the State Governments gradually became less relevant and less powerful.

So I take this poll today, and I have to check USA citizen first. Not even close. Amazing the change a couple hundred years can make...... 2F

I think a large portion of what you are getting at is the nation is far more transient today than it was in the 1800s. For instance, I don't live in the state where I was born, but I do keep up my loyalties with sports fandom to my native state (besides you don't switch from a Packers to a Bears fan). On a board like this where there is a large portion of people living in a town like Vegas where many people live and very few are from as well. The OP here, I am just guessing lives in Atlanta, which is another town where many live and few are from. As far as the crux of the question goes everything local impacts me more than most everything on the national level but then again, i don't have any allegiance to where I live.

I am for taking the flag down, not because of the hate symbol issue, but because it was in essence a foreign country's flag. Texas or California don't fly the Mexican flag, the 13 colonies don't fly the Union Jack, Florida or Puerto Rico the Spanish flag, etc.

I think in just about any instance where there's a Confederate flag, an American flag can be substituted to better effect.

The interesting thing about slavery is that the Abolitionists all disagreed with slavery on Religious grounds. Their refusal to negotiate a deal on slavery (if you are religious you can't negotiate with "evil") is what led to the Civil War. Again we are ignoring the wisdom of our Forefathers about the separation of church and state with the Abortion issue.

Quote: zoobrew

I am for taking the flag down, not because of the hate symbol issue, but because it was in essence a foreign country's flag. Texas or California don't fly the Mexican flag, the 13 colonies don't fly the Union Jack, Florida or Puerto Rico the Spanish flag, etc.

The coats of arms of these six nations are on the Texas Capitol building:

1 Spain (1519 to 1821)
2 France (1684 to 1690 for Fort Saint Louis and 1800 to 1803 for French Louisiana)
3 Mexico (1821 to 1836)
4 Republic of Texas (1836 to 1845 as the Republic of Texas; 1845-present as the State of Texas)
5 United States of America (1845 to 1861 and 1865 to present)
6 Confederate States of America (1861 to 1865)

They are also on the reverse of the State Seal.

They aren't flags, of course, but they are symbolic of the state's history.

I am not for them getting rid of their history and I think taking down statues of Confederates generals and statesmen is wrong, but I think flying a foreign country's flag on government property is wrong.

P.S. the civil war had more to do about state rights that with slavery. There is a reason the 13th Amendment wasn't ratified until after the civil war ended, the first vote on the Amendment was 3 years after the war started.

Quote: Paigowdan

I think in just about any instance where there's a Confederate flag, an American flag can be substituted to better effect.

I thought about it and came to the conclusion that you are correct.
I still worry about the monuments and memorials and statues and such.
An American flag at a Confederate memorial is appropriate for me.

The power and significance of American states has been inversely proportionate to the speed with which its members are able to travel and communicate.

In 1776, the pace was glacial; today it is very quick indeed.

Quote: Paigowdan

I think in just about any instance where there's a Confederate flag, an American flag can be substituted to better effect.

Yup.

RonC took the words out of my mouth. As well as on the Capitol building, these 'six flags over Texas' are seen many places, such as Six Flags theme parks. They are a source of pride in Texas, with the Confederate flag of course being one of the six. However, I think 2F started the thread as a state's rights conversation with a Confederate flag segue.

Very interesting point on the change in allegiance from colony/ state to national. I can't imagine thinking that my state government is the highest government authority, with federal being secondary, but that probably is how the Founding Fathers intended it to be. Perhaps we are seeing a return to that in social issues. States differ greatly on capital punishment, marijuana use, gay marriage, etc and the federal government does not impose any side.

Rush Limbaugh has jumped the shark.
He thinks the American flag is next LOL

"One day, what is happening to the rebel flag will come to pass for the American flag, too"

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/rush-limbaugh-confederate-flag-american-flag-119359.html

Quote: Gabes22

I think a large portion of what you are getting at is the nation is far more transient today than it was in the 1800s. The OP here, I am just guessing lives in Atlanta, which is another town where many live and few are from.

Quite true, only a very small few of us are from the Atlanta area. Bunch of Yankees and other undesirables runnin' round here now ;-) pls, just a joke! If I meet someone around my age that seems or states like they are native Atlantans I ask them if any of their grandparents were Atlanta area natives. If they respond yes, I assume they are long lost cousins. The branches on that big family tree of mine, well the branches crossed a couple too many times if you get my drift. So I have a perfectly scientific explanation for being, er....somewhat unusual ;-)

But none of that has anything to do with States Rights, or allegiances. Well, except you should be willing to fight for family. In the mid 1800s I think many, most perhaps, fought for State and family and not country, in both the north and the south.

This is just an aside, but I personally love Atlanta. I have been down there a few times for business. I enjoy downtown, Buckhead. Stayed out in Lithia Springs. I remember eating at this place called Gumbeaux's in Douglasville as well. It reminds me of a condensed version of Chicago where none of the roads are straight. LOL

In the oath of citizenship, we pledge to support and defend the constitution and laws of The United States of America above all else.

Furthermore you agree to renounce all allegiances to foreign sovereignties. The confederate flag represents a foreign soverenty, or would have if the south had won.

Additionally, in the Pledge of Allegiants, we pledge allegiants to the United States of America, not a single state.

Quote: studmuffn

..(edited by shortening).... However, I think 2F started the thread as a state's rights conversation with a Confederate flag segue.

Very interesting point on the change in allegiance from colony/ state to national. I can't imagine thinking that my state government is the highest government authority, with federal being secondary, but that probably is how the Founding Fathers intended it to be. Perhaps we are seeing a return to that in social issues. States differ greatly on capital punishment, marijuana use, gay marriage, etc and the federal government does not impose any side.

Interesting but I think you are mistaken. You mention issues that the Feds haven't taken jurisdiction of yet.... but all three are under debate, and the Fed will decide, one way or the other. The other is to leave with the States, for now. Either way the States will have to bow to the Fed's decision. That troubles me as a concept.

Quote: kewlj

In the oath of citizenship, we pledge to support and defend the constitution and laws of The United States of America above all else.

Furthermore you agree to renounce all allegiances to foreign sovereignties. The confederate flag represents a foreign soverenty, or would have if the south had won.

Additionally, in the Pledge of Allegiants, we pledge allegiants to the United States of America, not a single state.

The United States of America, that has a overwhelming ring to it for me, I hope for you too.
But was that the Federal Government in Washington ( wasn't always in Washington DC you know ).
Or was it 'The United STATES of America. That's a bit different you see.

And it's the pledge of allegiance , but I'm being picky, I apologize.
"In the oath of citizenship"? I never had to take that oath. I said a similar pledge more times than I can count though, (I pledge allegiance to the flag)
Long ago when I was young, every school day (even in the south) started with that pledge.
I've heard maybe it doesn't anymore.

I'm sure everyone here understands the flag in question is not the flag of the confederacy, but the battle flag.

Quote: terapined

Rush Limbaugh has jumped the shark.
He thinks the American flag is next LOL

"One day, what is happening to the rebel flag will come to pass for the American flag, too"

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/rush-limbaugh-confederate-flag-american-flag-119359.html

Jumped the shark, I don't know the term though I've heard it twice in two days.
Is that like 'jumped the gun'?
(Pause)
OK, searched it and think I understand the reference.

My opinion only, not meant to intentionally insult anyone, whether you wear a tin foil hat or not.
BUT:
Rush is a pretty smart and thoughtful cookie, in spite of his bombastic style and endless self-aggrandizement (like Trump?).
I started this thread with an examination of of just how much attitudes and allegiances can change in a couple of hundred years.
Those years were in the 1800s and 1900s. The world changes faster now, much faster, exponentially? Maybe not exponentially yet but the rate of change in the rate of change is accelerating.
I cannot imagine what the world will look like 200 years from now.
I can imagine, can't help but imagine, brace yourself........
I see the argument over whether to ban the manufacture, distribution, or display of the 'old flag of the failed United States of America' to be a discussion that is old news, settled long ago. I hope I am wrong, I hope that can be avoided. But to just assume that we are not headed in that direction is to be somewhat like an ostrich. IMO

I'm thinking about my children, and their children's children. And I fear Rush has got it right again....sadly...2F

Quote: kewlj

Furthermore you agree to renounce all allegiances to foreign sovereignties.

Kinda makes one wonder then, why are 86 congressman dual citizens?

Quote: Sabretom2

I'm sure everyone here understands the flag in question is not the flag of the confederacy, but the battle flag.

I knew that at one time, but blew right past it in my mental rejection of pc, thanks for pointing that out.

Quote: Sabretom2

I'm sure everyone here understands the flag in question is not the flag of the confederacy, but the battle flag.

I truthfully do NOT see the distinction. It was a Confederate Flag.

When a reporter asked Robert E Lee and U S Grant, a question after the war, both men gave the same answer, unknowns to the other's responds.

The question that was asked, " Did you fight the War of Rebellion over slavery?" Each men said that if the war was about slavery, they would have fought for the other side.

For Lee, his country was Virginia and for Grant, his country was United States.

Flags that offend certain groups and yet we have no problem displaying them.
Here is a partial list

Vietnam flag. This flag was that of our enemy.
Japanese flag. The same flag that flew next to the Nazi flag, and under which Pearl Harbor was attacked.
Confederate flag.
US flag, that was carried to massacre natives tribes.
Union Jack that colonized most of the world etc.
Romanian Flag that flew during the dictators reign. They cut out the center.

Some people find offense at the Confederate flag but Confederate flag does not equal slavery.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

When a reporter asked Robert E Lee and U S Grant, a question after the war, both men gave the same answer, unknowns to the other's responds.

The question that was asked, " Did you fight the War of Rebellion over slavery?" Each men said that if the war was about slavery, they would have fought for the other side.

For Lee, his country was Virginia and for Grant, his country was United States.

Flags that offend certain groups and yet we have no problem displaying them.
Here is a partial list

Vietnam flag. This flag was that of our enemy.
Japanese flag. The same flag that flew next to the Nazi flag, and under which Pearl Harbor was attacked.
Confederate flag.
US flag, that was carried to massacre natives tribes.
Union Jack that colonized most of the world etc.
Romanian Flag that flew during the dictators reign. They cut out the center.

Some people find offense at the Confederate flag but Confederate flag does not equal slavery.

I haven't mentioned the other side of my family tree as yet.
All you silly white men, and silly black men, and silly other men, can take your flags with you as you get back on your ships and sail away, hopefully forever. There, said, done. Two Feathers

Quote: terapined

Rush Limbaugh has jumped the shark.
He thinks the American flag is next LOL

He is correct, in fact it is already happening.

School bans American Flag on Cinco de Mayo.

UC Irvine Bans US Flag in "Inclusive Space.'

This stuff always starts with the kooks. But lets look at it as I always do, with logic!

We are at almost 10%, and it may already be more, of the USA being an immigrant population. This is 10% of the population with no born-in loyalty to the USA and possibly little gained loyalty. Remember the illegals rallies where they had Mexican Flags until they saw they were getting a negative reaction? This population is trending larger and larger.

Next you have the far-left who truth be told do not like the USA at best and hate it at worst. This is the kind who think the S&S represents slavery, genocide, theft, and any other bad thing they can think of. They are the kind that pushes the bans listed above.

Then you have the "well, we need to be nice" types. They do not hate the USA per se, but they will listen to group 2 above and say, "well, they do have some good points, maybe we need to just tone it down. Which becomes more down, down, and down. Happens every time.

On the flip side, the number of combat vets is declining rapidly. The armed forces keep coming from narrower and narrower parts of society. CA and the south are already over half the recruits. This is the group that will defend to the death, but it is getting smaller and smaller.

Patriotism ebbs and flows. Other than in 1976, patriotism ebbed big in the 1970s. It didn't really start to recover until Reagan made it OK again, the tipping point probably the Grenada invasion. I feel we are going to ebb again, if no other reason than it has been big since 1990 and people get worn out.

So, how would "banning" Old Glory happen? Well, first the kooks start on college campuses. As the kooks graduate, they get to become teachers and other influencer types who begin an indoctrination just like the pro-gay one that started in the very early 1990s. That took 20 years, but it eventually took hold. Meanwhile the patriotic guy is made to be socially unacceptable, here and there.

Eventually, some forces will say that the S&S is a "whites" flag and we need something "inclusive." Some ideas are drawn up. Various things happen. Perhaps a wave-election like 2008 and you get enough people in congress to pass anything no matter if the public wants it or not. Then BOOM, new flag.

And I will be the first to buy it! Immediately I will shine my shoes with it in public!

Quote: kewlj

In the oath of citizenship, we pledge to support and defend the constitution and laws of The United States of America above all else.

Furthermore you agree to renounce all allegiances to foreign sovereignties. The confederate flag represents a foreign soverenty, or would have if the south had won.

Additionally, in the Pledge of Allegiants, we pledge allegiants to the United States of America, not a single state.

We grant citizenship to aliens, they pledge the oath not us, we are nationals Kewl.

Quote: rainman

We grant citizenship to aliens, they pledge the oath not us, we are nationals Kewl.

We are granting citizenship to aliens now? I knew that greenish two headed guy at first base was acting peculiarly the other night. I'm headed to the store to get some of that extra heavy duty tin foil ;-)

Quote: kewlj

Furthermore you agree to renounce all allegiances to foreign sovereignties. The confederate flag represents a foreign soverenty, or would have if the south had won.

Nobody is pledging any allegiance to the Confederate Battle Flag, which BTW is not the flag of the CSA.

The people that had fought in the Revolutionary War and their immediate descendants did identify more as a member of their state instead of as a US citizen because the federal Government hadn't been around that long and wasn't as powerful as it is today. In the Post Civil war era, waves of immigrants arrived and had no ties to the states in the way that the Pre-Civil war population did. They were interested in becoming US citizens, not Virginians, New Yorkers, Pennsylvanians, etc. I was born in New York, if I'm asked where I'm from by another American, I say "New York". If I'm overseas and someone asks me the same thing, I say the United States first and then narrow it down to the state.

Quote: Paigowdan

I think in just about any instance where there's a Confederate flag, an American flag can be substituted to better effect.

On Fort Bragg in North Carolina, there is a small graveyard out in the middle of nowhere that has Confederate soldiers buried. There are small Confederate flags on the graves in a similar fashion that you see small US flags on the graves at the National Cemeteries. In this case, I'd let these guys have a pass. The graves are 15 miles into the woods and not visible from a paved road.

Quote: NYSith

On Fort Bragg in North Carolina, there is a small graveyard out in the middle of nowhere that has Confederate soldiers buried. There are small Confederate flags on the graves in a similar fashion that you see small US flags on the graves at the National Cemeteries. In this case, I'd let these guys have a pass. The graves are 15 miles into the woods and not visible from a paved road.

Obviously they have been given a pass, at least to date. And I, for one, have no problem with that whatsoever.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Obviously they have been given a pass, at least to date. And I, for one, have no problem with that whatsoever.

Can't say for sure if they still have the flags placed there anymore, it's been 15 years since I was last there and saw them. From what I remember, the place was tended twice a year by one of those groups like the "Daughters of the Confederacy". Very small graveyard maybe 10-15 graves, but I wonder with the push to remove the flag from government locations like statehouses if this will force someone to remove these.

I hate how apologists for the confederacy have sullied the name of the states, so now everything has to get done federally or it's no good. By the time of the Civil War, a citizen of a free state could go to a slave state, buy a slave, return to their home state, and keep that slave in perpetuity, with state authorities required to help against any escape attempt. And because that's what "state's rights" has come to mean, we essentially can't have any policy more significant than driver cell phone use end at a state line, all of us standing or falling with Alabama and Wisconsin.

Heh. I wonder if there are cemeteries in Germany where soldiers are buried under tasteful little hakenkreuze...

Quote: AZDuffman

Next you have the far-left who truth be told do not like the USA at best and hate it at worst. This is the kind who think the S&S represents slavery, genocide, theft, and any other bad thing they can think of. They are the kind that pushes the bans listed above.

Didn't even take 24 hours for AZD to be proven right!

Quote: AZDuffman

Didn't even take 24 hours for AZD to be proven right!

OMG linking Louis Farrakhan quotes.
Whats next, links from the Westboro Baptist church, talk about people that hate America from the far right.
The Farrakhan guy is insane.
Nobody should be listening to him.
Nation of Islam is now in bed with scientology.
Isnt that insane enough for you?
http://tonyortega.org/2012/10/27/the-scientology-nation-of-islam-alliance-sideshow-or-armageddon/

Quote: terapined

Quote: AZDuffman

Didn't even take 24 hours for AZD to be proven right!

OMG quoting Louis Farrakhan.
The guy is insane.
Nobody should be listening to him.

No, but people do. And it just illustrates what I said, the call will come from the fringe first and slowly mainstream.

Some film critic says "Gone With the Wind" should be banned as well. Is it getting crazy enough for you?

It is easy to see what is happening. The lefties do not like southern culture or valuers, so they are trying to snuff out any symbols of the south. They are effectively launching a cultural War of Northern Aggression. And so much of the nation is doing their bidding to "be nice."

No votes for State citizen first?
Got no Texans here? ;-)

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: terapined

Quote: AZDuffman

Didn't even take 24 hours for AZD to be proven right!

OMG quoting Louis Farrakhan.
The guy is insane.
Nobody should be listening to him.

No, but people do. And it just illustrates what I said, the call will come from the fringe first and slowly mainstream.

Some film critic says "Gone With the Wind" should be banned as well. Is it getting crazy enough for you?

It is easy to see what is happening. The lefties do not like southern culture or valuers, so they are trying to snuff out any symbols of the south. They are effectively launching a cultural War of Northern Aggression. And so much of the nation is doing their bidding to "be nice."

1st off the far right , Westover Baptist Church , is just as anti-American as anybody on the far left.
So some clown wants to ban gone with the wind, so what. The movie is not going anywhere.
Stop listening to the extreme clowns such as Nation of Islam, Westboro Baptist church, scientilogy, its all toxic.
Look slavery was wrong. Thats the bottom line. Why honor a cuture that promoted slavery.

Quote: terapined

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: terapined

Quote: AZDuffman

Didn't even take 24 hours for AZD to be proven right!

OMG quoting Louis Farrakhan.
The guy is insane.
Nobody should be listening to him.

No, but people do. And it just illustrates what I said, the call will come from the fringe first and slowly mainstream.

Some film critic says "Gone With the Wind" should be banned as well. Is it getting crazy enough for you?

It is easy to see what is happening. The lefties do not like southern culture or valuers, so they are trying to snuff out any symbols of the south. They are effectively launching a cultural War of Northern Aggression. And so much of the nation is doing their bidding to "be nice."

1st off the far right , Westover Baptist Church , is just as anti-American as anybody on the far left.
So some clown wants to ban gone with the wind, so what. The movie is not going anywhere.
Stop listening to the extreme clowns such as Nation of Islam, Westboro Baptist church, scientilogy, its all toxic.
Look slavery was wrong. Thats the bottom line. Why honor a cuture that promoted slavery.

OUR culture--that of the United States of America--promoted slavery. Our flag has much more history of promoting slavery than anything from the Civil War. Tearing down Confederate battle flags and statues is not going to change a thing.

Quote: RonC

Quote: terapined

Quote: AZDuffman

Quote: terapined

Quote: AZDuffman

Didn't even take 24 hours for AZD to be proven right!

OMG quoting Louis Farrakhan.
The guy is insane.
Nobody should be listening to him.

No, but people do. And it just illustrates what I said, the call will come from the fringe first and slowly mainstream.

Some film critic says "Gone With the Wind" should be banned as well. Is it getting crazy enough for you?

It is easy to see what is happening. The lefties do not like southern culture or valuers, so they are trying to snuff out any symbols of the south. They are effectively launching a cultural War of Northern Aggression. And so much of the nation is doing their bidding to "be nice."

1st off the far right , Westover Baptist Church , is just as anti-American as anybody on the far left.
So some clown wants to ban gone with the wind, so what. The movie is not going anywhere.
Stop listening to the extreme clowns such as Nation of Islam, Westboro Baptist church, scientilogy, its all toxic.
Look slavery was wrong. Thats the bottom line. Why honor a cuture that promoted slavery.

OUR culture--that of the United States of America--promoted slavery. Our flag has much more history of promoting slavery than anything from the Civil War. Tearing down Confederate battle flags and statues is not going to change a thing.

Everybody sing along regarding the confederate flag :-)
Na Na Na Na Hey Hey-ey Goodbye

Quote: terapined

Everybody sing along regarding the confederate flag :-)
Na Na Na Na Hey Hey-ey Goodbye

Might as well sing it for personal freedom as well.

Because there is no racism in areas of the country that were not in the CSA, right?

Quote: terapined

Everybody sing along regarding the confederate flag :-)
Na Na Na Na Hey Hey-ey Goodbye

Yes, we shall sing along. We'll do what makes us feel good. Make a whole lot of noise and actually do nothing.

It is great sport, of course.

I'm happy to see you are proud of that. You, like many, are not listening to anyone who says anything except "remove flags." I expect that. Take down the flag if you must, but address the real issues of racism. It is great to be caught up the frenzy, every Republican and Democrat trying to get some TV time if they are in favor of removing flags, but how many of them of spoken of anything but symbolic actions?

It is real actions that get things done.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

No votes for State citizen first?
Got no Texans here? ;-)

The citizens of the Republic of Texas respectfully abstain from the poll. ;-)

Quote: 24Bingo

I hate how apologists for the confederacy have sullied the name of the states, so now everything has to get done federally or it's no good. By the time of the Civil War, a citizen of a free state could go to a slave state, buy a slave, return to their home state, and keep that slave in perpetuity, with state authorities required to help against any escape attempt. And because that's what "state's rights" has come to mean, we essentially can't have any policy more significant than driver cell phone use end at a state line, all of us standing or falling with Alabama and Wisconsin.

Heh. I wonder if there are cemeteries in Germany where soldiers are buried under tasteful little hakenkreuze...

Good post, I think...
I do not believe I understand '"I hate how apologists for the confederacy have sullied the name of the states, so now everything has to get done federally or it's no good". I know I have quoted maybe out of context, but I'm trying to understand what you meant, trying hard. Can you help me? I liked, thought maybe I liked the rest of the thread, but I'm lost on the overall point I fear. If you don't mind, could you elaborate?

I do believe the Texans have arrived at the party, you know, just looking at the poll ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I do believe the Texans have arrived at the party, you know, just looking at the poll ;-)

Once a guy from Texas said that other than how fast I talk I would make a good Texan. He didn't know it but that made my week!

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

No votes for State citizen first?
Got no Texans here? ;-)

I live there now, but I'm a transplant. Then again, the people I meet from East Texas say I live in a foreign country so I'm not sure if I really live in Texas or not based on their metrics.

There was a show on the History Channel a few years ago called "How the States Got their Shapes" I believe in one of the episodes it stated that Texas was originally supposed to be broken up into five separate states.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Some people find offense at the Confederate flag but Confederate flag does not equal slavery.

It means a bit more than slavery, but the issue is that it contains, or also embodies, slavery status acceptance for the American Black in this country, at least at one time, and with some pushy rebel sentiment at this point, also.

One can argue the Nazi flag of the third Reich is simply "a heritage thing" also, and that there were other goals within the Third Reich, such as other Utopian ideals and economic policies, etc. There probably exists graves of old German soldiers with swastikas. Swastikas are outlawed in Germany as flags to be publicly sold, but pictures, images, and plates are keep for historical educational reasons in textbooks.

Heritage, yes.
What we're about now - no, hopefully not.

Quote: Joeman

Yup.

Great rebuttal Joeman. But Dan did say "just about any instance"...