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41 members have voted
Since I've posted a couple of times in the Obamacare forum against the law and those who passed it, I'm sure certain assumptions will be made regarding the remainder of my stances on controversial topics. You can ass-u-me what you want, but in the words of En Vouge ... FREE YOUR MIIIIIIND!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI will be shocked if he is on an NFL roster at the beginning of the season. And that has nothing to do with him being gay.
That is my issue. Judge him on his ability, which probably makes him undersized and not ready for the NFL But the pressure will be on the Rams to keep him, but hey, they are the ones that drafted him and stated how proud they were to be part of this "history" making event.
My take, good for him but the kiss and cake stuff was overkill and I didn't see any other picks doing it, not that they didn't, but they were not shown doing the same.
Quote: BozThat is my issue. Judge him on his ability, which probably makes him undersized and not ready for the NFL But the pressure will be on the Rams to keep him, but hey, they are the ones that drafted him and stated how proud they were to be part of this "history" making event.
My take, good for him but the kiss and cake stuff was overkill and I didn't see any other picks doing it, not that they didn't, but they were not shown doing the same.
Yeah the Rams well definitely feel some pressure over this. And that's my "team" (I guess...Rams suck really), also Sam went to my alma mater, so I really want him to succeed regardless if he was gay or not.
And the kiss and cake stuff may have been overkill, but when anything happens for the first time, you're guaranteed the media is going to cover it. In 2040, when the Xth openly gay player gets drafted, will ESPN care? Maybe, but definitely a lot less.
Quote: tringlomaneYeah the Rams well definitely feel some pressure over this. And that's my "team" (I guess...Rams suck really), also Sam went to my alma mater, so I really want him to succeed regardless if he was gay or not.
And the kiss and cake stuff may have been overkill, but when anything happens for the first time, you're guaranteed the media is going to cover it. In 2040, when the Xth openly gay player gets drafted, will ESPN care? Maybe, but definitely a lot less.
The media needs something to talk about. There is no story here but they can't very well lead with that.
I don't really know if the Rams will take any heat for cutting him. He is clearly not that good. Maybe if he makes a lot of plays on special teams he will have a shot to make the roster. Everyone seems to say that he has a really good work ethic so maybe he has a chance there.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe media needs something to talk about. There is no story here but they can't very well lead with that.
I don't really know if the Rams will take any heat for cutting him. He is clearly not that good. Maybe if he makes a lot of plays on special teams he will have a shot to make the roster. Everyone seems to say that he has a really good work ethic so maybe he has a chance there.
Clearly not that good? He's the wrong size for NFL DE or OLB, but had a pretty good college career. I'm pretty sure he didn't get drafted because he was Out, but because he's the sort of developmental player you take late, put through paces and see what happens.
I don't expect him to be a standout, but he might be a rotational player and special teams specialist. He is, by all accounts, a workout star and athlete.
EDIT : Maybe CFL will have a place for him? Players tend to be smaller (but faster) there, and DE in the Great White North might work out for him.
Quote: mcallister3200Idk if you can say he clearly is not good. He was defensive player of the year in the conference that supposedly has the best defense. He is clearly small and slow for the nfl from a measureables standpoint, so it may be like troy smith or gino toretta winning the heisman. He should get an opportunity to prove it in camp, which is all he deserves.
I think that 32 teams already said 6 times that he wasn't that good, and some of them said it a 7th time.
Quick, name someone else who was taken in the 7th round this year! No looking it up.
There is talent available everywhere in the draft, but college football is different from pro football, and absolutely everything that has ever been written about this guy points to him being a great college player who doesn't have what it takes to play in the pros. The guy basically dominated against weak opposition and got shut down when he played against good teams. Well, guess what, in the NFL, they are all good teams. Slow, undersized, and poor technique is not a good combination.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI will be shocked if he is on an NFL roster at the beginning of the season. And that has nothing to do with him being gay.
Wanna bet? I will be shocked if he doesn't. His combine numbers don't add up well.... but he played in the toughest conference, and made the football plays necessary to help his team be 5th in the nation. All the other SEC defensive players with 'better combine numbers' did not play as well as he did last year. I'll be seeing him this Saturday when he and my son graduate from Mizzou....
Quote: SOOPOOWanna bet? I will be shocked if he doesn't. His combine numbers don't add up well.... but he played in the toughest conference, and made the football plays necessary to help his team be 5th in the nation. All the other SEC defensive players with 'better combine numbers' did not play as well as he did last year. I'll be seeing him this Saturday when he and my son graduate from Mizzou....
I'll put $100 on it if you agree to payment being made by emailed amazon gift card.
To be clear, a practice squad is not an NFL roster. Injured reserve or PUP is not an NFL roster. I'm talking about the 53-man roster of an NFL team (doesn't have to be the Rams) on opening day.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'll put $100 on it if you agree to payment being made by emailed amazon gift card.
To be clear, a practice squad is not an NFL roster. Injured reserve or PUP is not an NFL roster. I'm talking about the 53-man roster of an NFL team (doesn't have to be the Rams) on opening day.
I don't use amazon. If I lost I would mail you a check for $100, or cash, and would accept a check from you, or cash, if I won. If you live in Vegas I could meet you there my next trip in October. Having forgotten about the 'practice squad' option, I am a tad less confident in my proclamation, but will still make the bet! He is the perfect size and speed and 'motor' for special teams. So is that ok?
. John randle was an undrafted hall of famer. Tom Brady was a 6 th rounder, guys like Drew brees and Russell Wilson fall just because they're short. First round draft picks probably turn out as expected 2/3 of the time at best. Now obviously those guys are the outliers, but just because talent evaluations that have been proven again and again to be marginally successful in predicting the future don't like a guy is not an obvious indicator of their ability to play.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think that 32 teams already said 6 times that he wasn't that good, and some of them said it a 7th time.
Quick, name someone else who was taken in the 7th round this year! No looking it up.
There is talent available everywhere in the draft, but college football is different from pro football, and absolutely everything that has ever been written about this guy points to him being a great college player who doesn't have what it takes to play in the pros. The guy basically dominated against weak opposition and got shut down when he played against good teams. Well, guess what, in the NFL, they are all good teams. Slow, undersized, and poor technique is not a good combination.
odds?Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'll put $100 on it if you agree to payment being made by emailed amazon gift card.
To be clear, a practice squad is not an NFL roster. Injured reserve or PUP is not an NFL roster. I'm talking about the 53-man roster of an NFL team (doesn't have to be the Rams) on opening day.
Quote: SOOPOOI don't use amazon. If I lost I would mail you a check for $100, or cash, and would accept a check from you, or cash, if I won. If you live in Vegas I could meet you there my next trip in October. Having forgotten about the 'practice squad' option, I am a tad less confident in my proclamation, but will still make the bet! He is the perfect size and speed and 'motor' for special teams. So is that ok?
I would prefer an anonymous method of payment. I would rather not meet, or give out my name or address.
How do you not use amazon? Do you actually go to real stores?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think that 32 teams already said 6 times that he wasn't that good, and some of them said it a 7th time.
Being drafted means you are 'good enough', even if it was a 7th rounder. Most of the time, we don't know when players are drafted unless they become stand outs. The Rams said he was better than 1000 other choices and wanted to use a pick on him, rather than home to get him as an undrafted pick. That says something.
Quote:Quick, name someone else who was taken in the 7th round this year! No looking it up.
Damn, I didn't catch who was Mr Irrelevant this year.
Quote:There is talent available everywhere in the draft, but college football is different from pro football, and absolutely everything that has ever been written about this guy points to him being a great college player who doesn't have what it takes to play in the pros. The guy basically dominated against weak opposition and got shut down when he played against good teams. Well, guess what, in the NFL, they are all good teams. Slow, undersized, and poor technique is not a good combination.
I agree he might not make the pro's by start of season. Players drafted in the 7th round are often hopes and dreams guys with some upsides. I think he got drafted because he has some of those elements, not because who he likes to play hide the sausage with. And despite he downsides that you see, the Rams think there's enough to pay money for in there.
Quote: thecesspitBeing drafted means you are 'good enough', even if it was a 7th rounder. Most of the time, we don't know when players are drafted unless they become stand outs. The Rams said he was better than 1000 other choices and wanted to use a pick on him, rather than home to get him as an undrafted pick. That says something.
I'm curious (I don't know the answer) what percentage of 7th rounders ever make it to an NFL roster for a real (not preseason) game? 10%? (Total wild guess on my part)
The problem is that NFL roster spots are valuable. Unless you are a backup QB, you have to play if you are using up a spot (even if "play" means that you chase down punts -- you have to do it, and you have to make plays while you are doing it, or you will be gone)
Anyway, being drafted just means that he is good enough to be on the team now, with whatever roster size they are allowed at this point. It doesn't mean that he is good enough to make the top 53; it just means that he is good enough that they want to take a look.
And, while I agree that combine numbers aren't everything, this is a truly horrible combination. And, the "poor technique" thing is what really stands out, even more so than the small and slow part.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI would prefer an anonymous method of payment. I would rather not meet, or give out my name or address.
How do you not use amazon? Do you actually go to real stores?
Yikes! I guess I do use 'real' stores! I periodically get amazon 'codes' or something that has a dollar value, and I just forward them to my soon to be graduating son. I guess once he graduates and starts working I'll sell them to him at a discount!
Since there seems to be no mutually acceptable way to resolve the bet, I will ask that it be considered null and void.
Just for interest, do you know of any statistics on the likelihood of a random 7th rounder making an opening day NFL roster?
Also, I just spoke with my son, who told me Sam, unlike the majority of major college football players, graduated last year after 4 years of college, and thus is not in his graduating class.
And of course you don't have to answer, but is your total anonymity to protect your identity as an AP?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm curious (I don't know the answer) what percentage of 7th rounders ever make it to an NFL roster for a real (not preseason) game? 10%? (Total wild guess on my part)
The problem is that NFL roster spots are valuable. Unless you are a backup QB, you have to play if you are using up a spot (even if "play" means that you chase down punts -- you have to do it, and you have to make plays while you are doing it, or you will be gone)
Anyway, being drafted just means that he is good enough to be on the team now, with whatever roster size they are allowed at this point. It doesn't mean that he is good enough to make the top 53; it just means that he is good enough that they want to take a look.
And, while I agree that combine numbers aren't anything, this is a truly horrible combination. And, the "poor technique" thing is what really stands out, even more so than the small and slow part.
I'd imagine 7th rounders play at least one season around 50% of the time...
Quickly going through the 32 players drafted in the 7th round in 2005, 22 played at least one down in the NFL. About 4-5 had decent careers, Matt Cassell among them. No stand outs that I recognize, and one got a superbowl ring as a bit part player on the Steeler XL superbowl team (and I mean a real bit part, I don't think he played in the game at all).
So about 66% of that draft class.
Many are cut, resigned, step in for a game or two, move somewhere else, play on the practice squad for a while before getting a couple of games due to another injury. Not many of the last rounders make the opening day roster the year they are drafted.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm curious (I don't know the answer) what percentage of 7th rounders ever make it to an NFL roster for a real (not preseason) game? 10%? (Total wild guess on my part)
And, while I agree that combine numbers aren't everything, this is a truly horrible combination. And, the "poor technique" thing is what really stands out, even more so than the small and slow part.
Didn't see this ! I asked you the same question.
But 'the poor technique' part would make him MORE desirable, in that they would think they can 'coach him up'. The slow and weak part is more scary...
Quote: SOOPOOYikes! I guess I do use 'real' stores! I periodically get amazon 'codes' or something that has a dollar value, and I just forward them to my soon to be graduating son. I guess once he graduates and starts working I'll sell them to him at a discount!
Since there seems to be no mutually acceptable way to resolve the bet, I will ask that it be considered null and void.
Just for interest, do you know of any statistics on the likelihood of a random 7th rounder making an opening day NFL roster?
Also, I just spoke with my son, who told me Sam, unlike the majority of major college football players, graduated last year after 4 years of college, and thus is not in his graduating class.
And of course you don't have to answer, but is your total anonymity to protect your identity as an AP?
I just prefer not to identify myself. I care a lot about privacy.
Yes, definitely, no bet since we can't agree on payment method.
I am way too lazy to go to real stores. I can shop on amazon, while watching TV, at 4am, in my underwear, and they deliver the stuff right to my house. It is amazing. Real stores get really upset if you show up without putting on pants. And they aren't even open 24/7. Amateurs.
I had the same question as you about 7th rounders. Someone answered, citing one year of data (which I have no reason to believe was cherry-picked). I'm surprised that it's as high as it is -- my guess would have been in the 10% range.
Quote: SOOPOODidn't see this ! I asked you the same question.
But 'the poor technique' part would make him MORE desirable, in that they would think they can 'coach him up'. The slow and weak part is more scary...
He's slow as a OLB and weak as DE, as I understand it. There's other players who have been this sort of hybrid Outside Defence player who have rotational parts. If his blitz technique or coverage technique is weak (and it suggests that his switch to OLB was not a happy one for him), then he'll have to get better real fast to make a roster.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI had the same question as you about 7th rounders. Someone answered, citing one year of data (which I have no reason to believe was cherry-picked). I'm surprised that it's as high as it is -- my guess would have been in the 10% range.
I sued 2005 as I knew Cassell was a 7th rounder that year.
Without going back through, I expect the 7th rounders who made day 1 rosters to be around 20%.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI think that 32 teams already said 6 times that he wasn't that good, and some of them said it a 7th time.
Quick, name someone else who was taken in the 7th round this year! No looking it up.
There is talent available everywhere in the draft, but college football is different from pro football, and absolutely everything that has ever been written about this guy points to him being a great college player who doesn't have what it takes to play in the pros. The guy basically dominated against weak opposition and got shut down when he played against good teams. Well, guess what, in the NFL, they are all good teams. Slow, undersized, and poor technique is not a good combination.
To be fair 32 teams said Tom Brady wasn't good enough 6 times.
Quote: geoffTo be fair 32 teams said Tom Brady wasn't good enough 6 times.
Hey, there is good talent available everywhere in the draft -- I said that too. I just don't see what all the buzz is about Sam. If he hadn't come out as gay no one would know who he was -- he'd be just another 7th rounder than no one cares about. I think that he saw his chance to have his 15 minutes and grabbed it.
Everything points to him not being good enough to play in the NFL. Until I see something to change that, it will be my assumption. The part about him winning defensive player of the year in a tough conference is meaningless. The Heisman goes to the best player period and that doesn't even make someone good enough to play in the NFL. The fact is that the college and pro games are different, and the best players in the college game do not necessarily make the best players in the pro game.
I understand that there are a lot of people who want him to succeed for political reasons, but, looking at it objectively, I just don't see it.
Now I kind of feel politics is already played a part in the whole deal. earlier this year when Sam came out, many analysts on espn were talking like he was a second to third round pick. He was drafted in the seventh round. Did that fall have anything to do with teams being reluctant to take him because of possible distractions? I don't know. He is undersized, but he was back when he came out and his stock was higher, so I don't buy that. there is a reasonable argument that he did not perform well in the combine and tryouts and his stock fell just as anyone who did not perform well would have. Maybe.
Anyway, I feel like the NFL wanted him to be drafted. If would have been a slap against them, that they weren't as accepting as they were saying if he wasn't drafted, regardless of the reason. So I really wonder if (you can read that as I believe) the NFL encouraged, maybe even made some sort of unknown deal so the Rams would take him.
Anyway, as much as I am happy that he was drafted and am pulling for him to succeed, I could have done without the kissing. Did he have a right to do it...yes he did. There are players who are married or have girlfriends that kiss their wife or girlfriend, so he had that right, but really this is a guy drafted in the 7th round. How about just acting professional and go about your business. I mean the big argument that Sam and gay supporters were making is that he is just another player trying to get a shot, make and help some team. The knock against him is that he would be a distraction, so the first thing he does is create a lot of attention? Com' on. Like I said, he should have taken the 'professional', "I have a job to do" route, IMO. I still wish him well.
Quote: kewljthere is a reasonable argument that he did not perform well in the combine and tryouts and his stock fell just as anyone who did not perform well would have. Maybe.
Saying that he did not perform well in the combine is a bit of an understatement.
3rd round is ridiculous. Players drafted in the 3rd round should be ready to step on the field and start on opening day; if they aren't, it's a disappointment, and people start throwing the word "bust" around. The point is, again, unless you are a backup QB, you have to play to be on the roster. What position is Sam going to play? If he is not a special teams standout right away, I think that his chances of making a team are very, very slim.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHow do you not use amazon? Do you actually go to real stores?
POST OF THE YEAR!!!!!
If ESPN or whomever did a pole and the answeres were certified to be 100% accurate.......on which NFL players were gay when they were drafted but obviously didn't come out.
Would you be disgusted as a lifelong fan of this person?
Would it not matter one little bit and you would keep the jersey that you bought of him in your freshman year with your hard earned delivery money?
I think this whole thing is a storm in a teacup. He should solely be judged on his performance on the field (college ball) and at the combine.......
It seems he did not make an impression anyway.
Quote: kewljI could have done without the kissing. Did he have a right to do it...yes he did. There are players who are married or have girlfriends that kiss their wife or girlfriend, so he had that right, but really this is a guy drafted in the 7th round. How about just acting professional and go about your business.
I was more disappointed by his crying than by the kiss. The media keeps exposing us to the kiss multiple times a day, that is the reason it is starting to bother me. I am just tired of seeing it, as I would be if they kept showing any other player kissing his significant other.
I think it's meaningful that only about 1 in 5 think that what should happen, will happen.
I also think it's meaningful that only about 1 in 4 allow their religion to guide them in evaluating the morality of homosexuality. Do we think we know more than our religion? Is it truly our religion if we can't agree with it on such a fundamental issue, or is religion something we make up as we go along? Also, why do we identify ourselves with a religion if we don't fundamentally ... well ... identify with it? How does that work?
Anyway, FWIW, I never heard Sam rated any higher than the fifth round except in the days following his coming out, where he was rated as high at second or third. i think that was hype. He may have slipped a round or two in the late stages from his projection, but not as dramatically as Manziel's slip or Randy Moss's or Dan Marino's.
Today, LeBron James said something to the effect of that he would not play in the NBA if Sterling was still an owner next season ... how do we know a star in the NFL didn't take a similar approach, only on the downlow since the political environment isn't conducive to a public pronouncement?
I think the "I'm a bigot" option is tantamount to "I don't care," at least I thought it was, but I'm still learning the culture.
Nice, civil discussion ... I knew I could trust the members! #smileyemoticon
Question missing from poll: do u think this is an agenda push by media just like the race card
This country is on the verge of limiting the constitutional amendments to fit what's popular. U can say this u cant say that, we can spy on u, you can have this gun but not that gun. Etc
Now they want to entertain letting transgenders into the military. I guess the enemy would run away fast? Well played govt, well played
You guys can give the money to me. I Will exchange it as i will see both of you at some point and time.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI would prefer an anonymous method of payment. I would rather not meet, or give out my name or address.
How do you not use amazon? Do you actually go to real stores?
Miata is no longer the # gay selling carQuote: onenickelmiracleAny Miata sightings?
Suburu's
I'm sure SAM and will want a Mercedes Benz SLK
What do you think DJ?
I think there is widespread agreement that, when a camera is on you, you behave differently that you otherwise would. ESPN cameras were there, that accounts for some of it.
I think there is also widespread agreement that reality show/documentaries are, at least to some extent, staged.
Inside view of his road to the NFL, or contrived reality show to propagandize a social movement? Or something in between?
http://www.tmz.com/2014/05/14/michael-sam-reality-show-oprah-lindsay-lohan/
ABC during a current episode of The middle adds to this stereotype.Quote: onenickelmiracleAny Miata sightings?
Quote: AxelWolfMiata is no longer the # gay selling car
Suburu's
That's only for gay women. They are very rugged cars.
If you are willing to hold and deliver the money -- is the bet back on?
Quote: AxelWolfMiata is no longer the # gay selling car
Suburu's
I'm sure SAM and will want a Mercedes Benz SLK
What do you think DJ?
Its hard to find out a miata driver is of a homosexual nature until your in his room and his pants come off......
Two elderly ladies having tea, one says to the other, "I think it's wonderful an openly gay man made it to the NFL. Why should he be denied the opportunity to suffer irreparable brain damage?"
Quote: chickenmanCartoon on the local editorial page yesterday:
Two elderly ladies having tea, one says to the other, "I think it's wonderful an openly gay man made it to the NFL. Why should he be denied the opportunity to suffer irreparable brain damage?"
So Michael Sam getting concussions is the equivalent of Eminem's comment about gays having the right to be miserable, or whatever he said about getting married.
Too bad Soopoo never replied and we never got a chance to make that bet...
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWell, he got cut, as I expected. This guy is not an NFL calibre player.
Too bad Soopoo never replied and we never got a chance to make that bet...
And you knew this because of your years as a professional scout, or what ?
Sam was drafted at the end of the seventh round ,despite being named a co-defensive player of the year in the Southeastern Conference his senior year at the University of Missouri.
Sam performed decently during the preseason, including sacking Johnny Manziel, the highly touted rookie quarterback on the Cleveland Browns.
Sam had 11 tackles and three sacks during the preseason and had a team-high six tackles in the last preseason game.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/sports/football/rams-cut-michael-sam-first-openly-gay-nfl-draft-pick.html?_r=0
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWell, he got cut, as I expected. This guy is not an NFL calibre player.
Too bad Soopoo never replied and we never got a chance to make that bet...
I think he was sunk as soon as his Oprah documentary intent leaked. Nobody wants that sideshow, especially with a player that has not proven himself to be worthy of the attention.