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pacomartin
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November 14th, 2013 at 3:22:15 PM permalink
The question of should children know what 30% of $200 is in dollars has now been overshadowed by should children know how to sign their names. While admittedly my own cursive style is barely legible even to me, many children do not know cursive at all.
Ibeatyouraces
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November 14th, 2013 at 3:26:08 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
AcesAndEights
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November 14th, 2013 at 4:58:29 PM permalink
My official signature (on my licence, passport, CCs, etc.) is sloppy print. I know how to write in cursive but never do it. Many moons ago (probably in high school?) I decided that my official signature was not going to be in cursive.

So if the question is "should children know how to write their name in cursive," then I believe the answer is no. Writing in cursive should be a niche skill and not taught universally.

Regardless, children should be informed that "you need to have a consistent signature to get through life." Just decide how you want to write your name or "make your mark" and stick to it.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
kenarman
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:01:34 PM permalink
I mirror what the previous post said that I very seldom write anymore and usually print. My writing was barely legible and printing helped other people read what I had put to paper. It is interesting that my grandfathers, fathers, my own and both my sons writing are all very similar. It tends to make me think that genetics somehow has a great influence on how your hands are able to create cursive writing. I know that I didn't consciously try and copy my fathers writing. I also came from the era when clear writing was the standard that was strived for. I spent hundreds of hours practising throughout elementary school.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
Buzzard
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:12:28 PM permalink
The Nuns were insisting back in the 50's. And if you were left-handed, they would cure that.

Make of fact, know the word SINISTER. In Latin it is "left-handed " .
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
petroglyph
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:30:07 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The question of should children know what 30% of $200 is in dollars has now been overshadowed by should children know how to sign their names. While admittedly my own cursive style is barely legible even to me, many children do not know cursive at all.




I question why try to teach them anything at all, it seems so much of public education is just state sponsored day care anymore?

What I am led to believe you may find interesting, especially if I'm correct.

Your signature doesn't even have to be your name! Do you notice on so many forms you are asked to print your name and then your signature?

Now is where the trail leads down the rabbit hole. Get out your checkbook or most any check. Now look at the signature line under a good magnifying glass.

Good enough so as you can see that it's not a line. Then ask yourself why is it like this?
zippyboy
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November 14th, 2013 at 5:34:32 PM permalink
I used to be quite proud of my handwriting. It's how I announce myself to people sometimes, before we've met, so I took care to have the best. But over the years, the more I use a keyboard, the worse my penmanship becomes. And sadly, the less I care how it looks. In fact, I seem to care less and less about a lot of things that mattered to me in the past.

I think children have lost the ability to do a lot of things that used to matter. Oh sure, they can search for something on wikipedia and play X-Box, but can they build a fire, ride a horse, ride a bike, shoot a gun or an arrow, sew on a button, build a wooden box, fix broken plumbing, drive a stick, tend a garden, filet a fish, dress a rabbit, play an instrument, speak another language, write a thank-you note, bake a loaf of bread, identify edible mushrooms from bad, change their oil, negotiate a used car purchase, take a punch like a man, row a canoe, swim a mile, or any of the common things kids knew generations ago? Cursive is just another casualty.

My girlfriend's daughter just turned 22. She can't drive a car and has no desire to get a driver's license, relying on her boyfriend and mom to chauffeur her everyplace, she can't cook at all, can't clean, and has never said 'thank you' to me for anything ever. Most of her friends are equally lazy. It's a different time these days. It's disappointing, really.
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beachbumbabs
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November 14th, 2013 at 6:24:03 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

I used to be quite proud of my handwriting. It's how I announce myself to people sometimes, before we've met, so I took care to have the best. But over the years, the more I use a keyboard, the worse my penmanship becomes. And sadly, the less I care how it looks. In fact, I seem to care less and less about a lot of things that mattered to me in the past.

I think children have lost the ability to do a lot of things that used to matter. Oh sure, they can search for something on wikipedia and play X-Box, but can they build a fire, ride a horse, ride a bike, shoot a gun or an arrow, sew on a button, build a wooden box, fix broken plumbing, drive a stick, tend a garden, filet a fish, dress a rabbit, play an instrument, speak another language, write a thank-you note, bake a loaf of bread, identify edible mushrooms from bad, change their oil, negotiate a used car purchase, take a punch like a man, row a canoe, swim a mile, or any of the common things kids knew generations ago? Cursive is just another casualty.

My girlfriend's daughter just turned 22. She can't drive a car and has no desire to get a driver's license, relying on her boyfriend and mom to chauffeur her everyplace, she can't cook at all, can't clean, and has never said 'thank you' to me for anything ever. Most of her friends are equally lazy. It's a different time these days. It's disappointing, really.



All very true in general, though there are specific exceptions. My sister and my one brother have kids who can all do everything on your list and then some. My other brother raised a daughter like your girlfriends'. Expectations and building kids who cherish being self-reliant has a lot to do with it.

And Scouting. Let me give a big plug for Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, although even they've gotten away from some of those skill-building and self-reliance lessons. The heck with dance class or singing lessons; kids' time is much better spent in learning those skills and finding out they can do so much for themselves.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
tringlomane
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November 14th, 2013 at 9:29:52 PM permalink
i know we are reliant on keyboards mostly now, but people should still know how to read/write cursive imo. Also sloppy writing can lead to other problems like more math errors, leading children to get frustrated over that as well.

I have great handwriting as a man, and I am better than my g/f's. Compared to most women...meh.
Perdition
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November 14th, 2013 at 9:37:42 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

The Nuns were insisting back in the 50's. And if you were left-handed, they would cure that.

Make of fact, know the word SINISTER. In Latin it is "left-handed " .



I grew up left handed. After trying scissors almost all of Kindergarten, I finally gave up and went with the crowd. Everything else changed to the right hand except writing. If only I had one of these in my town, who knows how different my life may have been:



I wonder how long until signing for things becomes obsolete. With biometrics coming on soon they will probably just ask you to use a thumb print or spit on a touch pad or what not.
boymimbo
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November 15th, 2013 at 1:55:23 AM permalink
Notetaking at meetings is fairly important at meetings. I still use paper to write down short shopping lists (my computer is used for my weekly run) and to make quick notes at meetings. I think it's an important skill because you're not going to be carrying your IPad or smartphone everywhere.

And yeah, I'm lefthanded, but throw dice with my right hand.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
AZDuffman
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November 15th, 2013 at 3:36:23 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The question of should children know what 30% of $200 is in dollars has now been overshadowed by should children know how to sign their names. While admittedly my own cursive style is barely legible even to me, many children do not know cursive at all.



I talked about the death of cursive somewhere here back when I was abstracting mineral rights on properties. If you look at old deeds you see lots of just plain beautiful cursive writing and realize writing even one deed for the record books probably took half the morning. Today most of us print. I print, but I have a condition that makes writing neatly very hard and it has progressed to where I can barely sign my name neatly. It is so bad the guards at the desk told me I had to do better once.

That being said, yes, kids need to learn cursive. They need to learn to write it so they know how to read it. Computers are causing us to raise a nation of productive idiots. We are getting more and more people who cannot function at an even basic level without technology. I worked with a guy who could not reduce a price by 10%, his mother was one of my algebra teachers! I have met several adults who could not read a map to get across town, I was taught that well enough to plot a course from PA to FL at age 12. By the way, the course I plotted was better than the one the adults found.

We are losing skills in the USA and it keeps getting worse. We hear about how, "All people can get are jobs at Wal-Mart." Then how they do not progress. Well, one reason they stay at a low level is they cannot lower a price by 15% when the manager tells them to. They cannot do 75/4 on paper to split the dinner check after work.

Then they cannot be a driver because they cannot read a map.

This is the basic level. Surely EvenBob can add a ton of things to this list.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
odiousgambit
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November 15th, 2013 at 4:31:30 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I worked with a guy who could not reduce a price by 10%m his mother was one of my algebra teachers!



Someone I worked with was at a meeting and pulled out a calculator to check something. Noting she had one, someone asked her to multiply a figure by so many percent. She said "sorry, this calculator does not have a 'percent' button"
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FatGeezus
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November 15th, 2013 at 7:51:00 AM permalink
My 11 year old granddaughter was given a gift certificate for a local restaurant. She decided that she would treat me to lunch.

When it came time to pay the bill, she presented the waitress with the gift certificate. The waitress told her that she has to sign the gift certificate and the bill. With the look of panic in her eyes she said 'You sign it grandpa.'

After I told her 'that's why you have to learn to use cursive'.
Buzzard
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November 15th, 2013 at 8:05:34 AM permalink
Kids are growing up in such a different world today. Asked my 6 year old grand-daughter to wind down the window in my car. She asked me why do I say "wind" down the window ? Kids text messages, use Ipads, are all over the net, etc.

But still have a hard time when I go to yard sales on weekends. Drive past so many empty ball fields, playgrounds, etc. If I even see a bicycle it has a for sale sign on it. I know I am sounding like some old bastard, but as kids we were outside from daybreak to nightfall.

I remember my Dad being really pissed one time when he was to pick up a friend only to drive there and could not find the guy.
Next time he was at our house, Dad asked him why the hell he did not leave a note. The guys said " Aw Bill. I can't write. "

Any idea which population in the USA has the highest illiteracy rate ?
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Wizard
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November 15th, 2013 at 8:15:04 AM permalink
I think my own kids were barely taught cursive writing. None of them use it as near as I can tell. Then again, they knew how to type at age five, while I didn't touch a keyboard until I took a typing class on an IBM Selectric in high school.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Face
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November 15th, 2013 at 8:17:55 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

I know I am sounding like some old bastard, but as kids we were outside from daybreak to nightfall.



It ain't just you, that was my life, too. I remember commenting on it too at a very young age, at least younger than you'd expect one to comment on it.

The funny thing is, I came up in the video game era. We all played all manner of vids, and often. I came up when the internet hit, and AOL chat rooms were huge. Try and find a guy in his 30s whose eyes don't get misty with nostalgia when he hears the Super Mario Bros theme music.

But we still were in the fields all the time, still rallied the troops for some 7 on 7 football, still took over shopping center's parking lots with 15+ kids for roller hockey. Still stayed out after dark playing man-hunt, still built forts in the woods, still owned the "Seasonal Limited Use Highway" in the winter for sledding. We had the tech, but still chose the activity.

What changed?
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rdw4potus
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November 15th, 2013 at 8:22:16 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights


Regardless, children should be informed that "you need to have a consistent signature to get through life." Just decide how you want to write your name or "make your mark" and stick to it.



I think I've told this story here before, but my mom totally screwed me on that one. When I was getting my DL, she told me to "make it neat - this is important!" so I signed in extremely legible cursive. I probably spent 30 seconds writing the signature that wound up on that license. I never could duplicate that signature...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Ibeatyouraces
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November 15th, 2013 at 8:25:54 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Buzzard
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November 15th, 2013 at 8:29:53 AM permalink
' What changed? "

Damn if I know. I mean as kids we used to still milk bottles and soda bottles off the porches and return them for deposit. Then buy water pistols or plat a pinball machine.

If we got busted, we were sent to our room. The ultimate punishment. Now if you want to punish a kid, send him outside to play.
Without his cell phone even. OMG the pain !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Ibeatyouraces
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November 15th, 2013 at 8:41:37 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Buzzard
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:01:05 AM permalink
Let's not overlook Pacman. Not , not Roger, but the game. Even Ms. Pacman

I am old enough to remember when Pong came out. Even played it in a bar. It was set in a coffee table square wood thing, with a wooden chair on each side.

Was such a big thing it was even demonstrated on the Ed Sullivan show .

Aw, who else besides Bob know what night the Ed Sullivam show was on ?

Getting old sucks, but so does the alternative !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
kenarman
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:14:59 AM permalink
Just so you don't feel too lonely Buzzard I played Pong for hours in a stand-up version for hours on end in a bar when it first came out, cut into my drinking allowance when I was young. Ed was on Sunday nights of course remember watching when the Beatles made their North American Debut on the show.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
Buzzard
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:19:26 AM permalink
8 PM EST and Mister Camera Man, do not let that camera go below chest level when Elvis the Pelvis is on stage. And get close in on Senor Wences LOL Senor Wences died in 1999. Yeah, hard to believe. He was 103 years and 3 day old at the time.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Mission146
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:24:47 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I think my own kids were barely taught cursive writing. None of them use it as near as I can tell. Then again, they knew how to type at age five, while I didn't touch a keyboard until I took a typing class on an IBM Selectric in high school.



I missed it completely, they did it for a week when I was in second grade and I got Chicken Pox that week. They said they weren't going to assign anyone to teach it to me because it is completely unnecessary, anyway, State just requires it be taught. Free, "A," for me on the cursive test, which is the grade everyone got, regardless of actual performance.

In my signature, you can understand the, "P," as well as my middle initial. I've been told the, "G," in my last name would be perfect, if it were meant to be an, 'L.'
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
beachbumbabs
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:39:06 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

8 PM EST and Mister Camera Man, do not let that camera go below chest level when Elvis the Pelvis is on stage. And get close in on Senor Wences LOL Senor Wences died in 1999. Yeah, hard to believe. He was 103 years and 3 day old at the time.



My favorite toy when I was 5 was my Topo Gigio bobble-headed mouse. He was porcelain with fuzz coating. I still do the Senor Wences hand-conversation bit every so often. And it's still funny, to me, anyway. RIP, Senor.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Buzzard
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:46:55 AM permalink
Senor Wences and our divorce in the parallel universe share a common thread.

" Easy for you, for me ees very deefeecult!""

But times heals all wounds . Today : "S'awright?"
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Buzzard
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November 15th, 2013 at 9:53:24 AM permalink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEio4rQDU5A

Love Pedro
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
kenarman
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November 15th, 2013 at 10:52:18 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

My favorite toy when I was 5 was my Topo Gigio bobble-headed mouse. He was porcelain with fuzz coating. I still do the Senor Wences hand-conversation bit every so often. And it's still funny, to me, anyway. RIP, Senor.



Did you 'keese' your bobble head goodnight :-)
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
pacomartin
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November 16th, 2013 at 7:26:23 AM permalink
I suppose that many things are not absolutely necessary to get through life. When I was in graduate school many of my classmates were from Asia. As most graduate school students grade undergraduate papers a frequent topic of conversation among the Asian graduate students was the illegible papers submitted by the American undergraduates.

This idea of the necessity of learning cursive never occurs to them. As far as they were concerned not being able to write legibly meant you were ignorant. PERIOD.

So if kids should learn cursive for the sole reason that they may be judged by people in the international community, that may be a good enough reason.
petroglyph
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November 16th, 2013 at 9:48:03 AM permalink
A running joke in Europe is "what do you call someone who can only speak one language"?, Answer, an American. lol

This here is an interesting tidbit of history. Graduating exam for the 8th grade, 1895

Maggie's Farm

We are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for.

Is this a hoax or not? It is not, after further research. For details of its provenance, read footnotes on page here.


This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts. per bu, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $.20 per inch?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10.Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?

Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10.Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10.Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.

The top of the test states > "EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS� OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS
April 13, 1895� J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent.Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.)"

According to the Smoky Valley Genealogy Society, Salina, Kansas "this test is the original eighth-grade final exam for 1895 from Salina, KS. An interesting note is the fact that the county students taking this test were allowed to take the test in the 7th grade, and if they did not pass the test at that time, they were allowed to re-take it again in the 8th grade."

(Image is the Grapetown, Texas, one-room schoolhouse, built around 1880. Please leave your guns on the front porch, kids.)

For a related link on historic American education, click here.
AZDuffman
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November 16th, 2013 at 9:59:50 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph



According to the Smoky Valley Genealogy Society, Salina, Kansas "this test is the original eighth-grade final exam for 1895 from Salina, KS. An interesting note is the fact that the county students taking this test were allowed to take the test in the 7th grade, and if they did not pass the test at that time, they were allowed to re-take it again in the 8th grade."



Today the Teachers Union would complain that they had to "teach to the test" and needed more money to do so, even though they could not do so.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
petroglyph
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November 16th, 2013 at 10:20:02 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Today the Teachers Union would complain that they had to "teach to the test" and needed more money to do so, even though they could not do so.




I think that teaching to the test is part of "No child left behind" policy of you know who's admin.

The grade school I'm most familiar with today up North, the teachers are required to teach to the lowest common denominator in the classroom.

What I'm told is that they aren't allowed to teach above their lowest student's ability. It seems some years back that the teacher's resisted the policy of doing so. Everything is controlled by the funding. If the school districts want fed money they have to follow fed guidelines.

Last year my grandkids were in first grade in a charter school and learning Latin. In first grade!

I don't know if the teacher's were in a union or not? There were however requirements that every students parents did have to participate on a regular basis.
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