Thread Rating:

pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
July 15th, 2012 at 1:15:11 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Everything would go back to animal, wind, and water power. Printing presses and newspapers. Cross cut saws and ox driven plows. Communication would be a bitch, though. Steam ships and steam locomotives and steam cars. Probably steam planes and blimps.



The fundamental point is that the human population went from roughly 200 million in the year 1 AD, to a billion around the year 1800. Without modern energy distribution what would happen to the present population of 7 billion? Over half the world lives in urban areas today, most of which would be giant death traps within a week without power.

Since presumably people won't die by the billions peacefully, what kind of civil insurrection or possibly full scale war would result.

In the build-up over the last thousand years, people gradually added wind and water power to run the gristmills of the day. They learned to ride horses, and built stables. Land ownership reflected thousands of people who were subsistence farming. There would be no pesticides, or modern farming techniques. What about the psychological effect on people. Most of the population in the developed world is much older than it was a hundred years ago. People routinely died of things that are easy medical problems today.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
July 15th, 2012 at 1:16:07 PM permalink
Quote: scire

BOB; I sense the looters- after the stores are emptied would head out and find who was "growing"/planting and they'd hit the "farms"



So what? You're thinking in the very extreme short
term. The stores and farms would be looted immediately,
and law and order would soon be re-established. We
aren't savages, we'd still have police and jails. People
did live for 99.999999% of history without electricity,
you know, and got along quite nicely.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
cclub79
cclub79
Joined: Dec 16, 2009
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 1147
July 15th, 2012 at 1:21:57 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The fundamental point is that the human population went from roughly 200 million in the year 1 AD, to a billion around the year 1800. Without modern energy distribution what would happen to the present population of 7 billion? Over half the world lives in urban areas today, most of which would be giant death traps within a week without power.

Since presumably people won't die by the billions peacefully, what kind of civil insurrection or possibly full scale war would result.

In the build-up over the last thousand years, people gradually added wind and water power to run the gristmills of the day. They learned to ride horses, and built stables. Land ownership reflected thousands of people who were subsistence farming. There would be no pesticides, or modern farming techniques. What about the psychological effect on people. Most of the population in the developed world is much older than it was a hundred years ago. People routinely died of things that are easy medical problems today.



Exactly.

DAD: "Hey Wife! I had a great day farming fresh veggies today! No pesticides at all!"
MOM: "Great! Our daughter Lisa got the flu! She died!"
DAD: "Darn! Pass the corn! Mmmm delicious! The pounds are just falling off!"
MOM: "The Wilson's next door are a little upset because their Johnny caught the flu from Lisa...but they'll be okay. I brought over some peas!"
DAD: "Great! Life is so much better than when we were lazy and had desk jobs! Any clean water out there?"
MOM: "Nope, not today!"
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
July 15th, 2012 at 2:13:04 PM permalink
Most people don't know that whole factories were run by
huge steam engines before electricity. One engine could
run a whole department, with long leather belts and pulleys
and gears. Jay Leno has a factory steam engine that he
demo'd in a video. It ran a cotten mill in England in the
1840's and made almost no noise when it was running.
They used it for almost a hundred years and it still runs.

Silent, no exhaust fumes, very little consumption of
fossil fuel to keep the water boiling, and lots and lots
of efficient power. The Stanley Steamer was a very
good automoblie, could go 70mph with no noise. But
it took awhile to fire it up, so they died out when
gas engines took over. The freeways would be filled
with steam vehicles if we lost all the electricity.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
scire
scire
Joined: Jun 16, 2012
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 73
July 15th, 2012 at 2:57:20 PM permalink
Bob: I don't really take any of this TEOTWAWKI seriously --as about to happen anytime soon. But who knows? Ya-- something "could" happen?? You realize I like communicating here as an interesting way to kill time and perhaps have some entertainment in my boring mundane life. I don't take anything I pen seriously. Really. But for conversational fun purposes...and maybe give "food for thought" in a fun sort of way....

Bob, I am assuming that Law and order is in huge distress- possibly non-existant -in a TEOTWAWKI situation as I envision "in fantasy". If there is no electricity or phone service the police cannot get to everyone assuming....what kind of TEOTWAWKI situation do you envision? I'm assuming say a meteor wiping out 1/3 of the people or some other like catastrophe which would disrupt life forever -perhaps huge radiation problems outside?? .....

Also, easy to become "savage like" when one is truly hungry AND not accustomed to it- possibly facing panic/fear of death. The only thing that will keep a large amount of a "populace" from "taking over roving" would be Police or Martial Law provided by the State or Federal government again assuming they could function as they do now by arresting and locking up the violators or possibly a shoot on site a violator scenario ??/would there be enough AMMO for them then for accurate control???). There would be a lot of violators to lock up would there not be?? Without electricity the Court system would grind to a halt too.

A lot to digest in speculation. Don't ever assume people can't be savage like in extreme extreme circumstances. Especially if the Law is greatly disabled in an uncontrollable --lack of food--TEOTWAWKI.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 434
  • Posts: 25333
July 15th, 2012 at 3:07:24 PM permalink
Quote: scire


A lot to digest in speculation. Don't ever assume people can't be savage



Better not to assume that civilized people will become mouth
breathing moronic zombies for longer than a few days. Law
and order would be restored rather quickly. We have libraries
full of books to teach us everything we need to know to survive
without electric. But this doesn't play well in the movies so
we assume everyone will go Rambo and become a looting
and killing machine. Not very likely.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
scire
scire
Joined: Jun 16, 2012
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 73
July 15th, 2012 at 3:29:49 PM permalink
We are in an apples and oranges- fun -stalemate here?!! Ya the roving gangs would weaken and die or sicken after several days and loose their 'fight".

Bob I guess my imagination could be better served writng scripts for a movie!!!!

END.
zippyboy
zippyboy
Joined: Jan 19, 2011
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 1124
July 15th, 2012 at 5:25:17 PM permalink
Quote: scire

The only thing that will keep a large amount of a "populace" from "taking over roving" would be Police or Martial Law provided by the State or Federal government again assuming they could function as they do now by arresting and locking up the violators ....


Never happen. There's a certain percentage of humanity who will use the scenario to rape and kill and pillage like they've always wanted to, but haven't because they're afraid of jailtime. Police will quickly be overwhelmed and just go home to protect their families. Doctors too. Forget courts and jail. Everyone will adopt a shoot-on-sight philosophy in the opening few weeks till things calm down.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
Face
Administrator
Face
Joined: Dec 27, 2010
  • Threads: 49
  • Posts: 4448
July 15th, 2012 at 5:43:41 PM permalink
Quote: zippyboy

Never happen. There's a certain percentage of humanity who will use the scenario to rape and kill and pillage like they've always wanted to, but haven't because they're afraid of jailtime. Police will quickly be overwhelmed and just go home to protect their families. Doctors too. Forget courts and jail. Everyone will adopt a shoot-on-sight philosophy in the opening few weeks till things calm down.



Forget courts and jail? Forget everything. No cops, no court. No grocer, no doctor. No government, no country, no state. Everything falls.

I imagine it'd be a lot like a large scale Lord of the Flies. Ragtag groups of people in close proximity band together into strange tribes. They work together, sure, but there's in-fighting. There's battle for power. There's battle between these tribes. There's cooperation between tribes. Sometimes tribes split into sub-tribes, sometimes tribes join into super-tribes. This ebb and flow would continue forever. Eventually, if big enough and productive enough, a tribe could completely control an area, making new borders. Other tribes would get wiped out, incorporated, or pushed to other areas, where if they don't die off, they may take hold and control that area. Countries are reborn. Life goes on.

We humans have lived in that world before. No infrastructure, no government, no power, it's been done. The wants of that time have led us to the spoils of our time. Come TEOTWAWKI, while we'd regress into the old times, I see no reason why we wouldn't make it back. The trail's already been blazed.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
scire
scire
Joined: Jun 16, 2012
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 73
July 15th, 2012 at 6:01:59 PM permalink
ZIP--- I cannot disagree. For a temporary period of time. ..."till things calm down" *. I try to 'stir the pot' my way --indirect routes with variance for continuing thought -- You're very direct. And correct. Though CERTAIN catastrophy's might not.*"calm down"- in totality- for certain Survivalists as they might expect them too. How can we know what "the end" might be truly like.

Like the post. Thanks.

  • Jump to: