Blackjack table dealt OLD MAID and voided the deck

So yesterday I flew to California to play in my favorite card room. I have lost $12000 to $16000 over the last 4 months.
I was down about $1,000 for the day playing BJ, when all of a sudden out came an old maid card ? What a commotion that
caused. Dealers stopping by to look at the card while management huddled to decide what to do.

This is a California casino and things are often handled differently by whoever is the shift manager in the pit that day. Well, finally they declared the deck VOIDED. They did not count the cards down in front of me. They did not offer so much as a bag of peanuts.
I went and played poker and lost another $600. I filed a complaint with the casino before leaving.

3 days later the casino called and said they would refund me $235 that I had lost on that shoe. I sid I thought I had lost more than that. The casino offered to let me see the tape. They did not offer an explanation as to how that OLD MAID card got into the game.
I would think they would have that tape also, and would take measures to prevent it from happening again. But again this is a California Card Room. SIGH

Not being sure if this was exactly fair I went to a forum ( not this one of course ) and stated my case and asked what they thought was fair. I basically got accused for trying to ripoff the casino, was given a lecture on how the OLD MAID card did not affect my EV,
and finally was told to shut up in a not so nice way. I was amazed because that person, Switch, and Mr.Casinio Games were the three
people who opinion on a card room I respected most.

I blew up and said something thing for which I am now truly sorry. But I am still asking, when a casino Has an OLD MAID card in a BJ game, does not count down the deck ( more OLD MAID cards and 4 less 9's, we will never know ) and just basically tell the customer GO AWAY, does this seen fair ?

But did you ever get to see the tape, that's my question?

That, for me, is where the story took a bit of a left turn. I can't imagine surveillance EVER letting a player view the tape. Maybe we just do things differently where I'm from.

It's California. They basically do what they want, Took 3 days for me to get a call even. I think the poker room manager is the one
who got them to do anything !

deleted

Don't play in California.

I basically agree with the Wizard's post in the Locked thread.

I'm just very surprised nobody at the table asked for a, "Fan out," (That's wha we call them here, anyway) especially given the two-deck shoe. If the Joker replaced a Ten-Value, for example, you don't even have to be a card counter for that to be relevant.

You have 104 cards and 32 of them are Ten-Values. You're sitting on the far left it is the opening hand. You're observing your opponents' cards and you see that there are three Ten-Value cards, your total is 11, the dealer is showing you another ten. Basically, you have 28 tens cards in an honest deck with (say there are three others at the table) 95 cards about which you know nothing.

Let's say that Joker somehow replaced a ten, you Double on your 11, of course, with a 29.5% chance of pulling a ten in an honest deck. With a Ten-Value missing, your chance of pulling a ten decreases to 28.4%. Infinitesimal, sure, but given basic strategy, the missing ten will more often than not improve the situation for the house. There are also hands where you are hoping for a dealer bust and everything else...

If the count found that there were other cards missing, or other non-Joker cards that shouldn't be there, then I would say it would be the right thing for the casino to give everyone any monies lost from that shoe. If not that, then just return the highest single amount bet and lost during play to each individual player based on the highest amount bet and lost. A single missing card only has a theoretical impact on one hand, but nobody knows what hand, so you assume it affected the worst possible hand for the player. That's assuming that the player isn't counting, but that's the assumption the casino would probably want to go with.

I'm surprised nobody asked for a count. I would have, no doubt about it.

If the count came out true, then maybe I'd order a Godfather and when the waitress brings it out, I'd hold it up to the supervisor and ask, "You got this?" I would then just tip the waitress the cost of the drink, which is better than the $2.00 I would usually tip. I should at least get a drink for the time spent watching the count, but if everything else is fine, I wouldn't expect anything else.

If the shoe contains 8 cards of 13 different values and only eight cards of thirteen different values, you could put seventeen Old Maid cards, My Panera Bread Rewards Card, my Social Security Card, somebody's Green Card and an album by the band Yellowcard in there and it affects the theoretical odds eaxctly 0. As long as they, "Turn and Burn," anything that's not one of the thirteen values, what's the difference?

The $235 is a darn generous offer. Do you know why they made that offer? They probably made that offer so that the player wouldn't go around telling his friends not to play there and so that he wouldn't go on a Rant about how awful that casino is on a well-known Internet gambling Forum. I may have told the story, but after an offer that generous, I would not have identified the casino by name.

He's also a pretty big player there, apparently, to go in and drop $1,600 in total. He's also playing at a Casino only paying 6:5 on a Natural, and he has stated that he makes the side bets. The casino wants to keep ANYONE, I'm sure, who plays the side bets.

All this, and they say, "You can watch the tape?" What more could someone want?

Take the money, and make sure you tip the waitresses well that day.

buzz, your trolling is legendary around here,
i tip my hat , sir..

doing it for teh lulz...

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I will say this loud and clear.....

NEVER PLAY IN AN INDIAN CASINO!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed.
OP says this happened at a CA card club. A BIG difference from a CA Indian Casino.

CA card clubs want to be a casino, but they are not and can not be by CA law.

But they still call themselves a casino, but they are not.
Misleading advertising.

Want to play poker in CA. Try a CA card club.

Want to play in a CA casino?
Go to Nevada.

Have a problem from a CA casino?
Either an Indian Casino or a CA card club, that calls itself a casino, but is not a casino that people image what a casino is.
You are screwed.
Next!

Well, they did not spread the cards. They did not explain how the OLD MAID card got in there. Why would I not name the casino ?
Did they do something they should be ashamed of?

The difference is that the casino is indeed in business to make money. I have no problem with that. I did not declare the deck voided.
" THE CASINO DID " If you declare the deck VOIDED, give me back my money back that I lost.

Don't talk about EV, this might have happened or that, just what actually happened, please.

Does not the casino have a responsibility to provide me a game without OLD MAID cards in it. And when an OLD MAID shows up, just say DAMN and not verify the deck. I never said the $235 was unfair. I just do not see it as GENEROUS.

I am the one who is being generous if I play there again.


I have worked in many illegal places over the years. Every owner I worked for ( none had tapes, but if they did ) would have counted down the cards, shut down the table, and told the players to stick around for a while. After checking the tape, he would have approached each player with an explanation of how the OLD MAID got in the deck, and smooshed each player. Tell winners how much they won and comped dinner for 2. The loser would get a refund, and apology, and comped for 2 dinners.

Same result whether player dropped thousands in past or 1st time in the door.

Instead word was allowed to spread all over BJ tables and to poker room. Only because I stopped playing poker there was I even called.

I do not consider a good business decision to be GENEROUS.

Would like to hear from Switch or Mr Casino Games on this matter. Even the Wizard of England if he has calmed down.

Quote: WongBo

buzz, your trolling is legendary around here,
i tip my hat , sir..

doing it for teh lulz...

Surely you jest sir. All I have said is true. Why , if you doubt that, I will request the OLD MAID card and post it here as proof.

Quote: buzzpaff

But I am still asking, when a casino Has an OLD MAID card in a BJ game, does not count down the deck ( more OLD MAID cards and 4 less 9's, we will never know ) and just basically tell the customer GO AWAY, does this seen fair ?

I am confused. Did they say "go away", or did they say "we will refund the money you lost on the bad deck"?

When WoE said "Shut the f up," I believe the intent was not to insult anyone, or to tell anyone to stop talking about it on this forum. I truly believe the intent was to say, "The deal you've been offered is a good one. Don't f it up or give the casino a reason to rescind that offer!" If my assessment is correct, then the response was totally uncalled for, and worthy of the suspension incurred.


I have no idea what Buzz' intent was when he revived this "issue" and claimed it as his own.

Teddy Teddy He said "Shut the f up,"

He did not say "The deal you've been offered is a good one. Don't f it up or give the casino a reason to rescind that offer!"

The response was uncalled for, as was the original " Shut the f up,"

Revived what issue ? Did you not see my offer to provide the OLD MAID card as proof ?

I think the Wiz of England is enough of a gentleman to realize his remark was uncalled for.

If you guys want to be rules Nazis then shouldn't Buzz be suspended for trolling.

Quote:

No bullying/trolling: Members are expected to act like ladies and gentlemen. Members may not be overly divisive or abusive to another member. This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member. (Added 2/24/2012)

" This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member. " Really? Whom am I supposed to have attacked?
What , pray tell, have I said or done today the is ungentlemanly ?

No arguing, just asking for clarification !

Jim , someone may have stolen your identity as I see this reply next to your name.

" I don't read the forum enough to care too much and I'm not going out of my way to block anyone. When someone acts like an idiot, I'll simply tell them they are a f***ing idiot. "

Evidently sir, people who do not share your view are idiots.

Quote: buzzpaff

" This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member. " Really? Whom am I supposed to have attacked?
What , pray tell, have I said or done today the is ungentlemanly ?

No arguing, just asking for clarification !

It seems you started a thread to attack and make fun of the guy who had the thread about the joker in the deck. Really seems to me to be the only purpose of this thread. Therefore it is a violation of the rules.

Quote: buzzpaff

Evidently sir, people who do not share your view are idiots.

For the most part.

Actually I started this thread because I agree with the OP. And I did not like the way he was treated.

And then when i flew to California and instead of a joker, I found an OLD MAID card in my Bj deck, I felt compelled to report it.

Buzz Paff,

I almost have to believe that nobody asked for a spread, or the casino would almost have to acquiesce. That's the first thing I would ask for is a spread, if there's one problem with a shoe, then there could be more than one problem with that shoe. If they refused to spread, when requested, I would have demanded a full refund of any monies lost to the entire game, and if refused, I'd take them straight to small claims. You don't need a lawyer for small claims, and the casino is still probably going to settle, with treble damages and interest, to avoid all the bad publicity that could go with the lawsuit.

It's public record, so you'd be perfectly legal to send the case docs and a letter to every newspaper interested in printing it, shoot, I'd pay for advertising space.

However, if they fanned it out and everything was fine otherwise, I'd be very happy with a free Godfather.

Again, the only way I sue is if I request a fanout and they refuse.

I would not name the casino because a Joker in the deck, it can be assumed, is a rare occurrence at any casino. I think that the implicit understanding of the casino making that kind of an offer is that you're not going to roast them to death on a very well-known and popular Internet Gambling Forum. You're not going to go out of your way to publicize a shoe mistake. It's not for me to judge whether or not he should have mentioned the casino by name, I'm simply stating that I may have related the story without mentioning the casino by name.

I am talking about what actually happened, by the way. What actually happened is that you had a dead card in there that did not affect anything, absent any other problems with the deck. I just can't believe nobody demanded a fan out. If you don't ask for the fan out, then you're basically agreeing to act under the assumption that the deck was otherwise right, in my opinion.

The casino has that responsibility, but the legal question is one of damages. Nobody was actually damaged by this, absent an actual check of the remainder of the shoe. I can't figure out how you have multiple players at the table and nobody wants to see the shoe.

Quote: Mission146

You don't need a lawyer for small claims, and the casino is still probably going to settle, with treble damages and interest, to avoid all the bad publicity that could go with the lawsuit.

Well, to use a texting phrase.... LOL!!!!

Joe Shmoe threatens to sue the casino for $235, plus the 'treble damages', and the casino starts quaking in its boots! Let's not forget the buck or two in interest that might be added to the award!!!

" If you don't ask for the fan out, then you're basically agreeing to act under the assumption that the deck was otherwise right, in my opinion."

If you are that smart, you are probably not playing 6/5 BJ and side bets.

The house should do that without being asked to. Gee whiz, remember who the professionals are supposed to be.

And how did that JOKER get in there, by the way ??

Quote: SOOPOO

Well, to use a texting phrase.... LOL!!!!

Joe Shmoe threatens to sue the casino for $235, plus the 'treble damages', and the casino starts quaking in its boots! Let's not forget the buck or two in interest that might be added to the award!!!

It's not the interest they'd be worried about, it's the bad pub. They have a shoe that already has a problem with it and they're refusing to show you the remainder of the shoe. That's horrible publicity. In the settlement agreement would essentially be a stipulation by which the casino does not actually admit guilt, and thus, the player may not go around telling anyone that the casino is guilty of this thing. It would still be a public record, but the player could not run around screaming it from the rooftops.

Quote: buzzpaff

" If you don't ask for the fan out, then you're basically agreeing to act under the assumption that the deck was otherwise right, in my opinion."

If you are that smart, you are probably not playing 6/5 BJ and side bets.

The house should do that without being asked to. Gee whiz, remember who the professionals are supposed to be.

And how did that JOKER get in there, by the way ??

The house is under no legal obligation to do anything that the player does not explcitly request, in that situation. At least, none that I know of. If they were, it can be assumed that they would have done so.

I will tell everyone I know and complete strangers about the OLD MAID in my deck and I will name the casino too, if I choose to.

Truth is the best defense against a slander suit !

Personally, I think the OP in the other thread wasn't telling the whole story, but now I guess we'll never know.

Where I work if a whole deck cards (or a whole shoe worth) are leaving the table they are verified before they go. This would at minimum be a count to make sure they were all there, but more likely the shuffle machine would be put in sort mode and they would be verified by the machine (faster than doing it by hand). This would tell if there were additional cards missing or replaced.

This is why I asked the other OP how long the cards had been in use. Where I work even brand new cards make a trip through the shuffler after washing, and right there the shuffler would have red-lighted at the presence of the joker.

I also have a difficult time believing they would show him the surveillance video.

Edit: fixed spelling error.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

This would tell if there were additional cards missing or replaced.

One thing I did not understand from the original thread, and still don't get now, is: who the hell cares???
They voided the deck, and offered a refund, effectively admitting the deck was bad. Who cares what exactly was wrong with it?

I could understand the desire to ask them to spread a different ("random") deck, to see if this was the only bad one, but scrutinizing the one that is already declared void seems like a tremendous waste of time (kinda like this whole discussion).

Quote: weaselman

One thing I did not understand from the original thread, and still don't get now, is: who the hell cares???
They voided the deck, and offered a refund, effectively admitting the deck was bad. Who cares what exactly was wrong with it?

I agree that if it was just an extra card (the joker) in the deck it really made no difference, but it would answer the question of whether or not the joker replaced a card that should have been there or if any other cards were removed/replaced.

But in any case I don't really know what they could do besides offering the refund on the losing hands.

"The house is under no legal obligation to do anything that the player does not explcitly request, in that situation. At least, none that I know of. If they were, it can be assumed that they would have done so. "

Legal, schmegal. This is a California card room.

"But in any case I don't really know what they could do besides offering the refund on the losing hands."

I agree, but we are definitely in the minority. Most posters have decided the OP is trying to rip off the casino,

Quote: buzzpaff

Most posters have decided the OP is trying to rip off the casino,

I think he came off with a bit of a sense of self-entitlement at first, then he seemed to get overly defensive when further questions were asked, and some inconsistencies began to appear in his story. That, and it felt to me a lot like certain details were being purposely omitted. These are all vague and subjective observations on my part, but I lurked here for quite a while before I jumped in, and frankly it doesn't surprise me that he was "set upon" by some.

I have no way of knowing the honest intentions of the original OP, but he seemed to at least somewhat fit the profile of a troll, and I think that's the reason he got the strong reaction from some. But I don't think accepting the refund for the losses on that shoe would constitute "ripping off the casino". If the events happened as he described they really have a problem at that property.

" frankly it doesn't surprise me that he was "set upon" by some."

Lots of people, myself included, have trouble expressing themselves. Many posting seem to be misleading, but are simple a case
of poor communication skills.

In any case I do not think the OP should have been told by any member to " shut the F*** up "

Quote: buzzpaff

In any case I do not think the OP should have been told by any member to " shut the F*** up "

I agree and apparently so does the Wizard, but I'm guessing there was a lot of frustration building up and the "attacks" were a sort of "defending of the culture of the forum" if you will. I'm sure many of the regulars here feel this is "their place" and they don't want it crapped up. So, while I'm not condoning ungentlemanly behavior, I think I can understand where it was coming from in this instance.

Quote:

I think he came off with a bit of a sense of self-entitlement at first, then he seemed to get overly defensive when further questions were asked, and some inconsistencies began to appear in his story. That, and it felt to me a lot like certain details were being purposely omitted. These are all vague and subjective observations on my part, but I lurked here for quite a while before I jumped in, and frankly it doesn't surprise me that he was "set upon" by some.

He didn't change answers, he re-explained them (history modified them) thats what setoff some here. There were some time-sequence gaps, and the post was vague. When properly drilled for the situation, the type of losses, and casino proceedure, there was EPIC FAIL on both parties, which benefits the casino. IMHO the OP was looking for trouble here, as several members basically said take the $XXX and run away.

I understand there were proceedural issues, but as previously posted and linked, the Calif. Casinos have a shell of regulation. The opinion I have is that Calif. Casinos should not be populated by gamblers. The Casino in question did more than what they're obliged to do. That doesn;t correct the wrong, but adds to a shoddy reputation, and permits very shady operations a-la the Internet casinos. THese are unsavory characteristics that raise a pirate flag.

Edited here for another point...

I recall a question raised by buzz wondering if the incident was/is/will be reported. The silence among the antagonists was deafening.
If the casino in question does not report it, one might as well raise the plague flag.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I agree that if it was just an extra card (the joker) in the deck it really made no difference, but it would answer the question of whether or not the joker replaced a card that should have been there or if any other cards were removed/replaced.

But who cares what is wrong with the deck? They admitted it was bad, and refunded the money.
Suppose, you insist on spreading it, and find out there are no tens at all. So what? They have already admitted it was bad. What else do you want?

Quote:

But in any case I don't really know what they could do besides offering the refund on the losing hands.

Exactly.

My understanding is that most of the card rooms around here have in there rules that if there is a joker, advertising card, etc in the shoe, that it should be treated as "scrap of paper". Basically it should be ignored. If they offered you money you should be greatful and take it.

Quote: bigfoot66

My understandind is that most of the card rooms around here have in there rules that if there is a joker, advertising card, etc in the shoe, that it should be treated as "scrap of paper".

Funny you use that example. Last week I was playing at Nick's table at the D and a corner of a playing card came out of the shuffler. The machine probably ripped it off somehow. I could tell it was a high non-picture card, probably 8 to 10. So I kept playing, hoping the dealer would get a rest of the card has his hole card, which would give me a good idea what it was. However, it never came out while I was there.

So, would Dan condone your waiting to see whether you could find the "marked" card dealt down to the dealer?

If a card comes out of the machine damaged, is the dealer supposed to play it as a normal card? Should he/she then put it back into the shuffler or what?

Quote: 98Clubs

Calif. Casinos have a shell of regulation

Quote: 98Clubs

I recall a question raised by buzz wondering if the incident was/is/will be reported. The silence among the antagonists was deafening. If the casino in question does not report it, one might as well raise the plague flag.

If California casinos are unregulated, who is this non-incident supposed to be reported to? What is the desired outcome of reporting it? Should the casino be fined for making a mistake which didn't affect the odds? Should they only be making mistakes which do affect the odds?

You can contact Gaming for card rooms (not Indian casinos which are tribally regulated). http://www.cgcc.ca.gov/?pageID=complaints