Why Is There All This Hatred for Don't Bettors in Craps?

I was going to ask under the craps gripes section, but this can be a topic in and of itself. Why is there all this hatred for Don't Bettors? I mean, you could bet the Don'ts if you want to and if they're wrong, everyone else win's. Must we all win and lose together as a dumb herd? They don't bet against you necessarily, since you're not paying out for their action. They bet against the casino.

I like to play both Don'ts or Pass, whenever the mood strikes me. Is that wrong? If you win more than I do because you are pure Pass player, good for you. WTF do I care? That's your betting style/strategy, and I have mine. I care about how much I win, not you. Do YOU really care about how much I win? So what if I'm up and your down. Big deal. It's not your money. Stop salivating at my bankroll. Must we judge each other by our wealth or folly?

I've been on tables where everyone was playing pass and I was the sole Don't better. I'd get the looks and snickers from dealers and players, when I lost that is, but when I won, just silence. I don't give you looks and snickers when you play. So why all this hating?

Would you hate me if I started to lay the 4? Would I hate you if you placed the 6/8? NO!!! WHO CARES?! Not your money, not your strategy, and not your *FUN*. Let us Don'ts be.

One more thing.....I've been at tables where I've been playing Pass, and a lot of people are playing the don'ts. And I make a point and people all start grumbling and martingaling their bets. Then I make another point and everyone switches long the pass. And then I, 7-out and more grumbling. I hope you are grumbling at yourselves and not little ole me.

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

Must we all win and lose together as a dumb herd?

Yes.

Quote: P90

Yes.

lol so sad.

I doubt that you really don't understand why DP bettors get this kind of reaction. If Person A deliberately sets things up so that he profits from the misfortune of Persons B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, and M, there is naturally going to be some resentment.

My personal reaction is that since there's no real gain from betting the Don't rather than the Pass (aside from a few thousanths of a percentage point), such bettors aren't making a strategy choice--they're making, how shall I say it, a "style choice". A large part of the fun of the game of craps is the collective feeling of "us against The Man". The players are cheering the shooter on; the Don't bettor is sitting there smugly saying, "you won't make your point". And he's correct in saying that. But who wants to be reminded of it? The Don't bettor is assuming the contrarian side, and the "Do" bettors are hoping something good will happen. They already have the casino as their adversary--it rankles to see someone bet on the side of the ultimate winner. And since there's no actual gain, to me, it says something about the Don't bettor's personality that he'd rather lose his money while betting with the house, and against the other players, than vice versa.

I'm sure you don't think of yourself in this kind of negative light, but I'm simply trying to answer your question. It's sort of like if there was a "Don't" bet available on the blackjack table, and such a bettor was always cheering and high-fiving his buddies every time the dealer got a blackjack or drew a 5 to her hard 16. The contrarian has deliberately staked out a position as a loner, and in the case of craps, to no real advantage, and people generally dislike loners, particularly in a group environment such as a crap table.

Quote: mkl654321

I doubt that you really don't understand why DP bettors get this kind of reaction. If Person A deliberately sets things up so that he profits from the misfortune of Persons B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, and M, there is naturally going to be some resentment.

My personal reaction is that since there's no real gain from betting the Don't rather than the Pass (aside from a few thousanths of a percentage point), such bettors aren't making a strategy choice--they're making, how shall I say it, a "style choice". A large part of the fun of the game of craps is the collective feeling of "us against The Man". The players are cheering the shooter on; the Don't bettor is sitting there smugly saying, "you won't make your point". And he's correct in saying that. But who wants to be reminded of it? The Don't bettor is assuming the contrarian side, and the "Do" bettors are hoping something good will happen. They already have the casino as their adversary--it rankles to see someone bet on the side of the ultimate winner. And since there's no actual gain, to me, it says something about the Don't bettor's personality that he'd rather lose his money while betting with the house, and against the other players, than vice versa.

I'm sure you don't think of yourself in this kind of negative light, but I'm simply trying to answer your question. It's sort of like if there was a "Don't" bet available on the blackjack table, and such a bettor was always cheering and high-fiving his buddies every time the dealer got a blackjack or drew a 5 to her hard 16. The contrarian has deliberately staked out a position as a loner, and in the case of craps, to no real advantage, and people generally dislike loners, particularly in a group environment such as a crap table.

Very very well said

I'm not a Don't hater, but if I have a choice between playing on a table where there are Don'ts, or playing on a table where everyone is playing Pass, I'll choose the pass table every time. I think it is safe to say that craps is a game with players full of superstitious mindsets. And while I don't think there is anything to it, I am open to the possibility that a good vibe, positive energy, positive aura, whatever you want to call it, could have an affect on the game. (I fully expect to get blasted for that statement on a board full of mathematicians and scientists). I'm not saying that it exists, I am saying that I am not positive it does not exist.
So a table with a Don't, no matter how nice they are, is still looking for a result that is opposite of what I am hoping for. And if you say you are playing the Don't and not hoping for a 7, I will call BS. Now, does hoping for a number have any affect on the dice? Not likely, but when everyone on the table is hoping for anything BUT A 7 the energy feels better.
But it's not just Don'ts. It is players who have negative attitudes that will drain the energy from a table too. I can't say how many times I have been on a table that has been going pretty good, and some guy wearing a frown down to his knees will saunter up to the table, and start bitching as soon as he throws his money on the table. Again, does he affect the dice? I seriously doubt it, but he does detract from the positive energy that we had going at the table. I guess what I am trying to say is, craps is much more fun when you have a table full of positive energy people who are all pulling for the same common goals.

Now, if I am playing in a casino with no options on tables, and the Pass line is not working, I will play the Don't too. But usually when I play the Don't, most of the table has already gone that way. Sometimes it is the only way to win. The only way I managed to break even on my last craps session was due to laying the 4. I won the lay 4 five out of six times to get me back to square.

If I can get on a craps table by myself, or with 1 or 2 other people, that is when I enjoy the game the most, assuming the other 2 are not drunk, and know what they are doing. This is why I prefer to play at 3:00 AM during the week, as it usually isn't too bad. I have noticed though, that there seems to be a time slot from about 6:30 AM to around 8:00 AM where the serious craps players seem to show up to play. The drunks are all at breakfast or asleep, and the idiots are absent. That leaves the old guys that know what they are doing, and have 40 minutes to play before their wives meet them for breakfast. Some of my best wins have come from this time slot.

I think part of it is that all those who believe oxygen is pumped into the casino have also been told about this thing called a DontBettor. Now they may not quite know what a dreaded DontBettor is but they've been told they should mock one if they ever do see one. And thus the habit spreads.

Now I would not quite recommend Terribles but to those who want to see the extent of the break-in dealer's hatred for Wrong Bettors, you need only look at the table where some frustrated dealer must have taken a razor and scraped off the words DontCome. The box is still there but the dealer removed the inducement. Didn't phase me. I just put my bet in the unmarked box and made sure he didn't choose to overlook it. He didn't. Particularly when a Natural rolled.

I think its the rather ignorant player who thinks a DontBettor is betting against them. Its strange though.. often my companion will bet on Player while I'm betting on Banker, but we never seem to be on opposite sides of the dice.

Quote: mkl654321

I doubt that you really don't understand why DP bettors get this kind of reaction. If Person A deliberately sets things up so that he profits from the misfortune of Persons B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, and M, there is naturally going to be some resentment.

Don't bettors didn't set up the game. The casinos did. Playing Don'ts is just another way to play craps. Do or Don't both suffer a house edge.

Quote: mkl654321

My personal reaction is that since there's no real gain from betting the Don't rather than the Pass (aside from a few thousanths of a percentage point), such bettors aren't making a strategy choice--they're making, how shall I say it, a "style choice".

The house edge according to the Wizard for x3-4-5 is 0.374% for do players. The house edge for x3-4-5 don'ts is 0.273%. The difference is %0.101 not the few thousands of a percentage point you claim.

Quote: mkl654321

A large part of the fun of the game of craps is the collective feeling of "us against The Man". The players are cheering the shooter on; the Don't bettor is sitting there smugly saying, "you won't make your point". And he's correct in saying that. But who wants to be reminded of it? The Don't bettor is assuming the contrarian side, and the "Do" bettors are hoping something good will happen. They already have the casino as their adversary--it rankles to see someone bet on the side of the ultimate winner. And since there's no actual gain, to me, it says something about the Don't bettor's personality that he'd rather lose his money while betting with the house, and against the other players, than vice versa.

Both do and don't bettors suffer a house edge. The Don't bettor is not playing on the side of the house otherwise everyone could bet don'ts and make money from it. We're all losing, but I agree with your comment about style. Sometimes I like knowing that a single number will pay off all my don't bets all at once and that single number seven is also the most common combination in craps.

To the original poster, it doesn't bother me when others comment. If asked I simply say that both ways are fine to play and that it's a matter of taste with the 0.1% difference in house edge. I bet pass line too, but it's more about how I feel on that given session. When I'm betting don't I even bet it when I shoot which gets some odd looks and calls from the dealers too. One time, I bet don't at a crowded table on my turn and the stickman yells out, "Shooter says no!" and everyone turns to look to make sure the stickman is actually telling the truth.

Play whichever way makes you feel comforable, but in the end the house has a profit built into both do and don'ts.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I think it is safe to say that craps is a game with players full of superstitious mindsets. And while I don't think there is anything to it, I am open to the possibility that a good vibe, positive energy, positive aura, whatever you want to call it, could have an affect on the game. (I fully expect to get blasted for that statement on a board full of mathematicians and scientists). I'm not saying that it exists, I am saying that I am not positive it does not exist.

There actually is a simple way to test it. Just measure the real per-wager hold of craps tables, preferably using a test group of pure do's and a control group of mixed tables, and compare it to the theoretical house advantage.

Quote: RaleighCraps

If I can get on a craps table by myself, or with 1 or 2 other people, that is when I enjoy the game the most, assuming the other 2 are not drunk, and know what they are doing. This is why I prefer to play at 3:00 AM during the week, as it usually isn't too bad. I have noticed though, that there seems to be a time slot from about 6:30 AM to around 8:00 AM where the serious craps players seem to show up to play. The drunks are all at breakfast or asleep, and the idiots are absent. That leaves the old guys that know what they are doing, and have 40 minutes to play before their wives meet them for breakfast. Some of my best wins have come from this time slot.

Interesting. I love playing at 6AM too. I fly in from the eastern timezone so 6AM Vegas time feels like my 9AM. My wife sleeps in and I play craps for an hour or so, and then I buy breakfast to bring back to the room. My wife doesn't always like the standing around for craps so it's a win-win.

I can play do or don't with little hassle although I usually get the tail-end drunks. That is the guys who've been up all night and hit the craps table at the end of their run. They quickly run out of steam though and are gone in 15-20 minutes.

Overall though a very comforable time to play.

Quote: FleaStiff

...often my companion will bet on Player while I'm betting on Banker, but we never seem to be on opposite sides of the dice.

Interesting comparison.

And I think that points to the two roots of the situation.

1 - In Baccarat, you're just betting on the outcome of pre-sorted cards. In craps, you're betting on the outcome of the actions of a specific fellow gambler.

2 - Terminology. "Don't" is negative, and is almost like an order to the shooter. If the two lines were called "Shooter" or "Dice", I think there would be a lot less animosity against players who bet on the Dice's line rather than the Shooter's line.

3 - More terminology. "Right" bettor and "Wrong" bettor. What the heck is so "wrong" about a different strategy, one that helps insure an honest game?

I make only don't come bets so I could care less if the shooter hits his point, as long as he doesn't hit mine. In fact, if I have already established a don't come point, I am hoping the shooter, along with the rest of the right bettors, throws a seven on his come-out, that way we all win together. So there can be some table unity between us, if only for a moment.

As a wrong bettor, I have never had problems from other players or dealers since I mind my own business, don't talk shit, and tip well. I am there to have fun playing this great game, and to win a little money. Don't be fooled by the right bettor's cumbaya table mojo. When one of their own can't hit a point, that goodwill evaporates pretty quickly, and notice how fast most of them head for the hills. I know this because I used to be one of them.

The botton line is, have fun and bet however you want to bet since it is your money and your time. Good luck.

Quote: helpmespock

The house edge according to the Wizard for x3-4-5 is 0.374% for do players. The house edge for x3-4-5 don'ts is 0.273%. The difference is %0.101 not the few thousands of a percentage point you claim.

unless I am very much mistaken, the difference comes from laying more money on your odds than if you were playing right, going with the max either way. Again, it is a case where the HE changes but the EV does not [significantly]!

What surprises me more is that there are so few if any all-don't tables.

Quote: odiousgambit

unless I am very much mistaken, the difference comes from laying more money on your odds than if you were playing right, going with the max either way. Again, it is a case where the HE changes but the EV does not [significantly]!

I believe the Wizard calculates the house edge on loss per bet resolved so 0.374% vs 0.273% is the expected value.

I developed an aversion to the pass line and come bets while learnign to play on Wincraps. I'd mak e apass line bet with full odds, followed by come bets with full odds, only to see three to five numbers, usually, sucumb to a single roll of a seven. I liked the idea of having the don't pass and don't come bets with full odds suddenly win at the roll of a seven instead.

But playing with real money things changed. For one, you can't throw real money around on bets as easily as play money on the computer. And in both scenarios you can lose a great deal rolling sevens on the come out. Also the table's mood does matter. It is a lot more fun to win with the herd. It's not fun to roll an 11 on the come out and have all the pass line herd congratulate you.

Anyway, the difference in house edge isn't that big. Having tracked sessions in real life and on wincraps, I come out about the same regardless of whether or not I play do or don't. So I may as well play do.

Quote: helpmespock

Quote: odiousgambit

unless I am very much mistaken, the difference comes from laying more money on your odds than if you were playing right, going with the max either way. Again, it is a case where the HE changes but the EV does not [significantly]!

I believe the Wizard calculates the house edge on loss per bet resolved so 0.374% vs 0.273% is the expected value.

So for every $100 bet the wrongs will make 10 cents more than rights? I am willing to take that disadvantage and get paid more than I bet on my free odds instead of laying odds. Win and then get the hell out of there!!

PS-I am prejudice, I have 2 friends that are wrong bettors and they are pains in the ass!! I never shoot craps with them.

The people who get upset are the same ones who feel the need to explain the game to everyone. I could care less what you are betting. Why would I? If I thought you and the Don't box had magic powers I may be miffed however if I thought the Don't bet had magic powers I would bet on that all day.
I have bet the Don't when I was shooting.

I always believed it was because don't bettors lack a soul.

I have no problem with a don't bettor. I do have a problem who taunts me after winning. Basically respect my game and I respect yours.

In general, I think others have laid out well why so many do hate the don't bettor.

Quote: helpmespock

The house edge according to the Wizard for x3-4-5 is 0.374% for do players. The house edge for x3-4-5 don'ts is 0.273%. The difference is %0.101 not the few thousands of a percentage point you claim.

Your calculations are incorrect. Odds bets should not be figured into the house edge since they are 1) separate bets and 2) neutral EV.

The house edge on the Pass Line is 1.414%. The house edge on the Don't Pass is 1.402%. Twelve one-thousandths of a percentage point difference.

Quote: Yoyomama

Quote: helpmespock

Quote: odiousgambit

unless I am very much mistaken, the difference comes from laying more money on your odds than if you were playing right, going with the max either way. Again, it is a case where the HE changes but the EV does not [significantly]!

I believe the Wizard calculates the house edge on loss per bet resolved so 0.374% vs 0.273% is the expected value.

So for every $100 bet the wrongs will make 10 cents more than rights? I am willing to take that disadvantage and get paid more than I bet on my free odds instead of laying odds. Win and then get the hell out of there!!

PS-I am prejudice, I have 2 friends that are wrong bettors and they are pains in the ass!! I never shoot craps with them.

Actually, for every $1000 bet on the Pass or Don't Pass, the Don't bettors will lose twelve cents less than the Pass Line bettors.

It is kind of surprising, but I have played on tables where it was so bad all 8 of us started playing the don't. The problem is, a 'successful' shooter loses the dice, so the game has no rhythm to it. I suppose we could all get together and figure out who the worst shooter is amongst us, and then everyone just pass on our rolls, so the same terrible shooter gets to keep rolling all the time. ;-)
I guess if you only play the PL w full odds, then that is no less boring than playing the DP w full odds, so you might as well get the slight advantage that the Don't offers.

It was funny the day we were all playing the Don't. Only time you ever hear the shooter saying, "Come'on 7"

The last time I played, I had a good conversation with a don't player and we traded thoughts on how the four tables were doing all weekend long. We both tried to avoid tables that were bad for our betting style...

Quote: mkl654321

Your calculations are incorrect. Odds bets should not be figured into the house edge since they are 1) separate bets and 2) neutral EV.

Yes I agree with your statement about odds not having an effect on house edge.

Quote: mkl654321

The house edge on the Pass Line is 1.414%. The house edge on the Don't Pass is 1.402%. Twelve one-thousandths of a percentage point difference.

This is where I believe you're wrong. I believe the 1.402% is when you don't count ties (on the 12). Properly counting ties the house edge drops to 1.36% for don't. Check out the Wizard's description here: Wizard of Odds Craps page

For more details on the don't calculation check out the Wizard's appendix 1 here

Quote: Yoyomama

So for every $100 bet the wrongs will make 10 cents more than rights? I am willing to take that disadvantage and get paid more than I bet on my free odds instead of laying odds. Win and then get the hell out of there!!

I believe it's you'll lose 10 cents less per $100 bet on don't pass vs. pass with x3-4-5 odds on average.

I agree that the 0.1% disadvantage is small and really will make no difference for most players (myself included -- I play so infrequently that I won't hit that long term average). I also agree that it's nice to bet less and get paid more on odds when playing pass. I play pass too, but again it depends on my mood.

I should mention too that I clap for the shooter who makes their point, and I do not cheer/yell/shout when they 7-out. It's a negative expectation game any way you play it so have fun however you want to play, but try not to spoil others fun.

Don't betters march to the beat of a different drum, you would be surprised how many of them think they are playing with the house. (Wrong)
I have talked with guys that have played the darkside for 30, and 40 years never realizing that they are not playing with the house. We all play a Negative-Expectation game, and that is all there is to it.

Don't players do not change the outcome of the game, that is a superstition, I love to see don't players on the table they for the most part don't say anything, they do not scream out when they win, like the rest of the nuts do, just bringing more players to the table. Most guys just think differently, They will stand there for hours hopping to see those seven-outs come. I joke around with a lot of these guys when they are playing, yes I know that I will seven-out, and there is nothing I can do about it.

The only don't players I ever have any problems with are the ones that think they can bully the table into losing, there the ones that will be screaming out for the shooter to seven out, when they are shooting, they throw in big reds, they stack chips as high as they can get them.
My list goes on and on. Needless to say I do have a problem with these players, and everybody on the table should too. I have a problem with any bully, and I do love to see them lose when they try to bully a table into losing!

Most players like playing craps for the social aspect of the game, when you have a jerk on the table trying to bully the table, the social aspect goes down the drain. The sad part of don't players are you have 1 or 2 % of all the don't players giving don't players a negative persona..!

It's not about winning or losing, it's about how you play the game, and yes, you sometime have jerk on the right side too!


...

Quote: RaleighCraps

It was funny the day we were all playing the Don't. Only time you ever hear the shooter saying, "Come'on 7"

That's odd. I hear it every comeout roll.

Quote: RaleighCraps

It is kind of surprising, but I have played on tables where it was so bad all 8 of us started playing the don't. The problem is, a 'successful' shooter loses the dice, so the game has no rhythm to it. I suppose we could all get together and figure out who the worst shooter is amongst us, and then everyone just pass on our rolls, so the same terrible shooter gets to keep rolling all the time. ;-)
I guess if you only play the PL w full odds, then that is no less boring than playing the DP w full odds, so you might as well get the slight advantage that the Don't offers.

It was funny the day we were all playing the Don't. Only time you ever hear the shooter saying, "Come'on 7"

I've only seen that happen once and it was kind of weird to see all those chips lined up on the don'ts. No one yelled for 7 though.

One time the dice passed to me and I plunked my money down on the don't and the previous shooter asked what was up with my bet. I said I rolled a lot of 7's and he shrugged and put his money on the pass line. Sure enough I established a point and then promptly 7'd out. He said, "You weren't kidding" and joined me on the don't the next time around and we won.

Quote: mkl654321

It's sort of like if there was a "Don't" bet available on the blackjack table, and such a bettor was always cheering and high-fiving his buddies every time the dealer got a blackjack or drew a 5 to her hard 16. The contrarian has deliberately staked out a position as a loner, and in the case of craps, to no real advantage, and people generally dislike loners, particularly in a group environment such as a crap table.

OMG that's brilliant! If there was a Don't Bet on a blackjack table I would so play it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should seriously go out and try to patent that. Like playing the banker, oh that's great. I love the concept. <guess I must be evil>

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

OMG that's brilliant! If there was a Don't Bet on a blackjack table I would so play it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should seriously go out and try to patent that. Like playing the banker, oh that's great. I love the concept. <guess I must be evil>

It exists. They had it in Caesars Windsor for a while. Forgot what it's called.

Quote: teddys

It exists. They had it in Caesars Windsor for a while. Forgot what it's called.

Winner's Option

When the game is taught, there is a much greater 'emotional award' from having the dice the longest. To have the dice the longest, you make points.

If they renamed the game "hot potato", had the puck say "miss" instead on "on", put a big don't come box where the don't box was, set up the lay bet in the middle of the number instead of on the end, and switch around the pass and don't pass, then you would have a completely different game. Most people can't imagine the game that way.

The game is setup for the pass line and for people to make points. They get to roll for longer. Shooters feel good because they feel successful at keeping the dice and making more money for similar betting people.

Don't betters are grumbled at because they want you to "lose".

Quote: miplet

Winner's Option

This is a link to the Wiz' review and analysis of the bet.

Interestingly, the Wiz has a link to the official web site - which is a placeholder page.

The Wiz does NOT give links out that easily. That means that there USED to be a website at that address. The fact that it's gone is tells a lot about the success of the bet...

Quote: boymimbo

Don't betters are grumbled at because they want you to "lose".

Would you say the same thing about roulette bettors putting their money on, say, black while you're on red?

I've been known to play both sides, and roughly 50% each way. It depends what mood I'm in. Generally, if I'm in a good mood, I bet the pass/come, and the other way in a bad mood. If I'm somewhere in the middle, I will probably go back and forth. This is one of the few areas in gambling I'm not a perfectionist and am willing to give up 0.05% for a better entertainment value on the pass side. I hope nobody quotes me saying that in the "even money" thread.

About the edge, I put the don't pass at 1.36%, because I count ties.

Quote: Wizard

I've been known to play both sides, and roughly 50% each way. It depends what mood I'm in.

Me too.
I play more Craps nowadays and I let the overall table mood tell me where to start.
If the table is quiet, not many bets or chips in front of each player, I start on the don't pass and tell everyone it is their lucky day. They should soon be winning.
Being a foreigner, most get a good laugh from it.

But a cheering table, I start right off on the pass and come and let the trend be my friend.

I must admit when playing the don't side many players do give you the evil eye and at times will say something smart about it. I just speak in my heavy Spanish accent and they leave me alone.

Quote: Wizard

I've been known to play both sides, and roughly 50% each way. It depends what mood I'm in. Generally, if I'm in a good mood, I bet the pass/come, and the other way in a bad mood. If I'm somewhere in the middle, I will probably go back and forth. This is one of the few areas in gambling I'm not a perfectionist and am willing to give up 0.05% for a better entertainment value on the pass side. I hope nobody quotes me saying that in the "even money" thread.

About the edge, I put the don't pass at 1.36%, because I count ties.

This raises a question I have about "HE" vs. "EV".

Let's say you had a gambling game where the player lost every single time (Harrah's is working on this). The EV of the game would be -100%. Now let's say you had another game where the player lost one time out of ten, and pushed the other nine times. The EV of this game would be -10%. Now, the HE would ostensibly be the same, 100% and 10%, respectively, but would there be any functional difference between the two games? Isn't the house edge in either game 100%, in the long run? Do ties really matter if all they do is slow down the losing?

I realize that from a mathematical standpoint, the ties do matter, but I think you understand what I'm saying here.

I count ties because the house edge is supposed to a measurement of how much a player will lose per initial wager. So if you know how edge, time played, and hands per hour, then you can get an expected loss estimate over that period of time.

I realize that the house edge is not always the best measurement of the gambling value of a bet. For example, consider a game where every time you got half your wager back, and lost the other half. Like surrendering every hand in blackjack. That would have the same monetary value as a lottery ticket, but not necessarily the same gambling value for a risk seeker.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Would you way the same thing about roulette bettors putting their money on, say, black while you're on red?

No, but the craps table isn't laid out that way. Both options are there, but the pass, come, place bets are much more prominent. I would say the same thing if the person running the roulette ball was a player who got to keep on rolling the ball if he got his bet correct, and you were betting the opposite way.

Quote: boymimbo

No, but the craps table isn't laid out that way. Both options are there, but the pass, come, place bets are much more prominent. I would say the same thing if the person running the roulette ball was a player who got to keep on rolling the ball if he got his bet correct, and you were betting the opposite way.

I think boymimbo has hit on why it feels the don't is opposing the shooter. In craps there is an illusion that the person with the dice is in some sort of control of the outcome. In roulette, I'm not bothered when I bet red, and another player bets black. One of us is probably going to win.
If a dealer threw the dice in craps, would it feel like the don't player was opposing the pass player? I think it would feel more like roulette, with each of us picking the option we thought was going to win.
But then again, if I never got to throw the dice, I'm not sure how much fun I would find the craps game to be.

EDIT: remove dup post (but I only hit the send button once). seems the forum software has a mind of its own....

I will take those few thousandths of a percentage point. I also like spending most of the time expecting to win a little money than spending most of the time expecting to lose.

Also, I play a lot of card craps in California. The house edge on Pass is much higher and house edge on Don't is much lower than with dice. You'd actually be sacrificing a lot of money to play pass there.

Quote: odiousgambit

unless I am very much mistaken, the difference comes from laying more money on your odds than if you were playing right, going with the max either way. Again, it is a case where the HE changes but the EV does not [significantly]!

This is correct, and another reason why the ev/(flat bet + odds bet) calculation can be misleading. The ev for the odds bets is zero, on either side. The ev for the flat part is very, very slightly less negative for the don't side, amounting to one unit out of 1980 bets. The HA calculated depends on whether the pushes are considered as risked or not. 27 / 1980 = .013636, but 27 / 1925 = .014026. Both are found in books about craps.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Quote: RaleighCraps

It is kind of surprising, but I have played on tables where it was so bad all 8 of us started playing the don't. The problem is, a 'successful' shooter loses the dice, so the game has no rhythm to it. I suppose we could all get together and figure out who the worst shooter is amongst us, and then everyone just pass on our rolls, so the same terrible shooter gets to keep rolling all the time. ;-)

There are no "terrible shooters".
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Quote: RaleighCraps

In craps there is an illusion that the person with the dice is in some sort of control of the outcome

Talk about tilting at windmills!

Quote: bbvk05

I will take those few thousandths of a percentage point. I also like spending most of the time expecting to win a little money than spending most of the time expecting to lose.

Also, I play a lot of card craps in California. The house edge on Pass is much higher and house edge on Don't is much lower than with dice. You'd actually be sacrificing a lot of money to play pass there.

Huh? How do you figure that?
I've played at Cache Creek (with two decks of 36 cards), Colusa Casino (with two sets of six cards) and I'm going to play at Jackson Rancheria (possible this week), with one set of six cards, and with none of those systems is there any "difference in the difference" between pass and don't pass.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Check out http://discountgambling.net/

Depending on how the deck is used, there is a effect on using a deck of cards to decide on the dice roll due to removal effects of the cards. In some cases and methods.

Quote: thecesspit

Check out http://discountgambling.net/

Depending on how the deck is used, there is a effect on using a deck of cards to decide on the dice roll due to removal effects of the cards. In some cases and methods.

Can't tell which post you're responding to.
Does this relate to the contention that the relative advantage of pass vs. DP is changed in card craps?

I've heard that some casino near San Diego uses multiple decks and does not replace, which means the probabilities shift, as in blackjack. However, that would not change the probabilities in any systematic way. I would not play such a game. It's so easy to achieve the same outcome distribution as with regular dice.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Quote: goatcabin

Huh? How do you figure that?
I've played at Cache Creek (with two decks of 36 cards), Colusa Casino (with two sets of six cards) and I'm going to play at Jackson Rancheria (possible this week), with one set of six cards, and with none of those systems is there any "difference in the difference" between pass and don't pass.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA

Some casinos, specifically vejas, play out of an automatic shuffler. Even minor card counting yields great results. Wizard has a post on it somewhere on the wizard of odds site.