Things That Really Annoy Me About Craps Part 1

This is my testimony -

I hate proposition bettors who insist on making prop bets all through the hand.

I especially hate Proposition bettors who throw their money in as the "dice are moving" muttering some gibberish that they have to repeat three times because Stick gets it wrong twice.

And I really hate Stickmen who acknowledge late coming prop bettors and "hold the dice" to "set the bet

In the comments don't bother pointing out that the casino's will never take the gold mine off the table because I know that.

The most enjoyable casino craps experience I ever had was at Bill's in August playing at their VDT-assisted craps table. Each player was responsible for their own betting and the game just flew.

In a way, I have the same sentiments.

I can understand it being a festive occasion, but must there be all that whooping and hollering?

If someone wants a prop bet he should be able to enunciate it clearly and quite frankly most of his action should be timely.

I understand the stick has to use some judgment from time to time about the pace of the game and the speed of his base-dealers but sometimes its not just the base dealers who are angry with the stick man. Are those straggling proposition bets profitable? Yes.

Is the solution to your discontent to go off and play video craps at some ultra high speed rate where that 1.414 grinds you down real fast? Probably not.

Where do you play? I've heard that Detroit is nothing but hollering and prop bets, but I've never been there. I know noisy drunks are tolerated at Terribles. Some tables move fast, some slow. Perhaps a different casino would provide a better atmosphere. I actually like it when the stickman does twenty minutes of stick calls and gets not one single solitary center bet.

As Johnny used to sing - "I've been everywhere man." From Reno to Vegas to AC to the mid-West, south-West, Dover Downs Delaware, Philadelphia, and the Pocono's. Craps is Craps regardless of the venue. Some tables are run well and some not run well at all. If a game gets too annoying I'll pick them up and either wait out the morons or go to another table.

Bill's rapid craps isn't "high speed" in fact the game is almost as slow as the real game because the dice are passed around the table and all the tourists get to "roll dem bones" which includes all the features of such an opportunity including dice off the table. What's missing is the constant distraction of chips flying all over the place and the game being delayed due to late betting. I have a feeling that we will see more and more VDT's at the tables (I've seen them at blackjack tables up in PA) because they save the casinos labor costs (fewer skilled workers needed) and replacement chip costs. It is just a matter of getting the fan base to accept them.

I agree that the props bettor should know when it's acceptable and not acceptable to make a bet. But all action adds flavor to the game. A prop bettor holding up the action doesn't bother me. Nor does it bother me when they whoop it up if they hit something.

I especially love to see a prop bettor that has so many stupid props up, that when he hits something, it actually costs him money just to keep all his bets up!

Quote: FleaStiff

Is the solution to your discontent to go off and play video craps at some ultra high speed rate where that 1.414 grinds you down real fast? Probably not.

For the record, the OP is not referring to video craps, but to Rapid Craps.

I don't mind if it's between points - that indeed is part of the fun and flavor - in fact I sometimes pitch a nickle on the yo myself - what I mind is when the dice are on the move and some guy finally decides to bet a horn high yo for a nickle and the stick holds the dice until he sets the bet. Now I don't know about you but I doubt anyone's life changed as a result of hitting a yo for a deuce.

Quote: Martin

As Johnny used to sing - "I've been everywhere man."

Hank Snow sung it first, and better! :)

To the person who mentioned Detroit, it's not that bad. The dealers have gotten very experienced with the habits of their customer base (i.e. "urban") and can handle most of their bets with aplomb. They also know when to not book a bet or kick somebody out.

I've been playing the video craps lately. It's very slow; about 120 rolls per hour. There is a 20-second window for bets, and then another 10 second window for the shooter to roll. Most people take the whole amount of time. Sometimes the 20-second clock will reset if a late bet gets in, slowing the game down further. $1 minimum, 3x4x5x odds.

Martin

There are many annoying things that happen on the craps tables with players that don't know what they are doing! Although I am not going to address any of them, I will leave that for anybody else that wants to get it all out of their system! To put it pain and simple I hate everybody else on the craps table that does not know a thing about the game.

The worst game I have ever played on is in Bill's, no you do not have late bets, chips in the way or any of the other stuff that makes for a bad game of craps!
What you do have is players that don't know a thing about the game, when they do buy-in the game stops forever! Every roll of the dice takes forever, when they have to show the players how to bet on the Video Screen!

This is the slowest game of craps there ever was, did I just say it took up to 3 min's to get one roll of the dice if the tables is full!
Then if the dealer makes a mistake on the pay-out, point was made but the dealer pushed the wrong keys, the game now stops for 15 min's. This happened to me when showing an out of town buddy the table!

It sounds to me that you are trying to sell this game to the players that have never seen this table in action, as it is not fast at all! It has got to be the worst craps game in Vegas, there is no advantage to playing this game and it's just putting a few more dealers out of work, The casinos would love to see players buy-into this type of game. Did I say that this is the worst game in town if you are a craps player?

The game is a joke and that is all there is to it, and is made for players that just want to kill time sitting down at a table.

No I am not a dealer, and at times have a problem with some of the new dealers, but I still say this is the worst game in Vegas. I will put up with the fools that plays craps any day over that table, it's a joke!
Oh I think I said that before sorry!

...

Superrick

I'm not "selling" anything - I just said that I happened to like the venue and the biggest draw, for me, was the fact that there wasn't any late betting. The machine broke once while I was there and it was fixed again in about 5 minutes.

I also mentioned that this is the future - like it or not. I personally never thought rapid roulette would catch on but it has. And I think that roulette betting is far more complex than craps.

The average tourist plays craps by the numbers:

1. Make a Line bet
2. Sometimes,but not often, add an odds bet
3. Wait till the roll is over and ask "Did I win" alternating with "Why did I win" alternating with "Why didn't I win"

And you find that kind everywhere. They don't bother me.

Martin

The future only happens with a game like this if players buy-in to playing it!
No one plays, they have no game, you might not think that you are trying to sell the game but you are promoting it as a good game, Now this is just my opinion of the game it just sucks. Their selling point to the casinos is you have only one dealer, which is not true, you need two more just to get players to use the video screens right!

I have walked by this table many times and it is always the same way, slow, what makes a casino money is the rolls per hour they can get on a real table! Also players that are betting money, you could have a player just setting there not betting taking up room!

If you play craps all the time you make up your mind that you will not pick-up the dice till everybody makes their bets!
The same thing happens at this table, the only difference is you do not have money flying across the table.

Buy-in's kill's the table at Bill's, and so does the players that don't know how to use the monitors there! There is no flow to the game it's shoot and then stop, wait till everybody figures out how to make the next bet, or the next buy-in gets their chips added to their monitor!

Then you also have when someone colors up!

If you play craps and want to stop what Martin thinks is the future, just walk on by that table, you will be doing everybody a big favor by not playing on it!

....

Ok let's end this then - I agree completely with every one of your points. To wit I am a simple minded moron who should not complain about late bettors and just thank whomever it is for the game of craps.

Does that sum it up for you?

Oh, by the way, everyone else - don't play rapid craps and we will hold back the tide of the future.

End of testimony - can I get an Amen!

That was the end? I actually enjoyed hearing about some of the things everyone (okay, except for those who do them...) hate at the craps table. I know it is a "random" game and slowing things down or all of the other "bad" things (dice hitting hands, huge piles of $1 chips in the landing zone, etc.) has no impact on the outcome...but it STILL is annoying!!

A well-run game has the crew warning and then not accepting those bets, warnings to keep hands back, etc. It "feels" good to play...

I don't think I'll like Rapid Craps...I like the dealer interaction at the table. I have said it before--when the games become too much like slot machines, I'll quit playing them. I'm not interested in machine play, even with the same odds. Video Poker is an example--I just can't play it for hours on end. Will us not liking it stop it from becoming more prevalent? I guess we'll see...there is a generation or two of video gamers out there who might turn the tide...

Don't worry - we will get to part 2 soon enough.

Quote: RonC

I guess we'll see...there is a generation or two of video gamers out there who might turn the tide...

And casinos are certainly well aware of "the long term". They have to deal with short term trends in attendance, crowd migration, staffing of table games, short term trends in styles of play, etc., but they always aware of the long term: 1.414 is good for them, but Prop Bets are better for them.

Quote: superrick

Martin

There are many annoying things that happen on the craps tables with players that don't know what they are doing! Although I am not going to address any of them, I will leave that for anybody else that wants to get it all out of their system! To put it pain and simple I hate everybody else on the craps table that does not know a thing about the game.

The worst game I have ever played on is in Bill's, no you do not have late bets, chips in the way or any of the other stuff that makes for a bad game of craps!
What you do have is players that don't know a thing about the game, when they do buy-in the game stops forever! Every roll of the dice takes forever, when they have to show the players how to bet on the Video Screen!

This is the slowest game of craps there ever was, did I just say it took up to 3 min's to get one roll of the dice if the tables is full!
Then if the dealer makes a mistake on the pay-out, point was made but the dealer pushed the wrong keys, the game now stops for 15 min's. This happened to me when showing an out of town buddy the table!

It sounds to me that you are trying to sell this game to the players that have never seen this table in action, as it is not fast at all! It has got to be the worst craps game in Vegas, there is no advantage to playing this game and it's just putting a few more dealers out of work, The casinos would love to see players buy-into this type of game. Did I say that this is the worst game in town if you are a craps player?

The game is a joke and that is all there is to it, and is made for players that just want to kill time sitting down at a table.

No I am not a dealer, and at times have a problem with some of the new dealers, but I still say this is the worst game in Vegas. I will put up with the fools that plays craps any day over that table, it's a joke!
Oh I think I said that before sorry!

...

I can see a bunch of reasons that those video-terminal craps games are not all the casinos seem to think they are. Sure you elimninate the need for the most skilled dealer job in the place. However, craps is a social game. The stick gives the spieal (sp?) and the chips fly into the prop bets. Someone sees someone else make a prop bet and asks yet another person about it. That person or a base dealer tells them how it works. The person makes the bet maybe. More business at the casino. Craps is learned by watching. Just last night I was playing some Don't Pass Line and one guy who clearly knew the game at least a little asked me how on earth that bet worked. When I picked up a DP bet on a point-8 a guy on the other side asked (politely) about being able to do that. I explained about it being OK and when he seemed just a tad amazed the dealer backed me up on it, adding that I could pull it back but not add to it. Same guy and date on my other side were wondering something aloud and I was able to answer (I forget what it was) after the dealer told them but had to do the rest of his duties.

Now, would any of this have happened if we were all just looking at our own screens?

Quote: AZDuffman

When I picked up a DP bet on a point-8 a guy on the other side asked (politely) about being able to do that.

I explained about it being OK and when he seemed just a tad amazed the dealer backed me up on it, adding that I could pull it back but not add to it.

The rules of Craps says it is "OK" to remove a don't pass AFTER a point has been established.

A few don't pass players always remove the bet when a point of 6 or 8 is established.

It is ALWAYS WRONG to do so. Period.
No excuse will change the wrong and make it right.

Quote: 7winner

The rules of Craps says it is "OK" to remove a don't pass AFTER a point has been established.

A few don't pass players always remove the bet when a point of 6 or 8 is established.

It is ALWAYS WRONG to do so. Period.
No excuse will change the wrong and make it right.

I know it is wrong, which is why the casino lets you do it. But I did it anyways and it worked out. In a week where I have picked literally nothing right gambling wise I decided to have some fun at it.

Quote: AZDuffman

Now, would any of this have happened if we were all just looking at our own screens?

Most likely no. But having played Rapid Craps, there is still a lot of talk between players and their screens and the dealers, at least when I played a few times.

But then the next question, WHY would you remove a don't pass bet?
Any math to back up that action?
Shame on you if you actually did.

Quote: AZDuffman

I know it is wrong, which is why the casino lets you do it. But I did it anyways and it worked out. In a week where I have picked literally nothing right gambling wise I decided to have some fun at it.

Sports betting and playing Craps are totally two different things.
One has exact probabilities that are known, one does not.

Quote: 7winner

The rules of Craps says it is "OK" to remove a don't pass AFTER a point has been established.

A few don't pass players always remove the bet when a point of 6 or 8 is established.

It is ALWAYS WRONG to do so. Period.
No excuse will change the wrong and make it right.

Then I can argue itis ALWAYS WRONG to make a pass line bet.
Both events, making a pass line bet, and picking up your 8 on a don't, are in the house's favor.
Which is more foolish, a $1000 pass line bet or picking up a $10 8 point on the don'ts?
One costs you about $14 and the other about $1.

Not even close, but will you say that someone betting $1000 on the passline is ALWAYS WRONG?

If you are gambling to make money, then you need to find a +EV game. Anyone playing craps, by definition,
is not expecting to make money. They are gambling for the thrill, or whatever....
People who make a 'bad' bet are not 'wrong'. If they try to assert that by doing so they are going to make
more money, well, then they would be 'wrong'.

Quote: guido111

Most likely no. But having played Rapid Craps, there is still a lot of talk between players and their screens and the dealers, at least when I played a few times.

But then the next question, WHY would you remove a don't pass bet?
Any math to back up that action?
Shame on you if you actually did.

1. Because for once in the night I figured I will do the stupid thing and hope it worked out.
2. Because I knew people around me would look and ask about it (which they did.)

Sometimes you do want to play a hunch and why not have a little fun with the table.

After dealing dice for over 30 years, nothing any more can ever annoy me, I have seen it all and it does not make you feel any better to become annoyed.
Wait, it is the bum that the boxman allows to play, that always reaches into his pants and smells his hands after words...yes, that STILL annoys me to no end.
Throw the bum out! Get me a NEW boxman!

Quote: 7winner

After dealing dice for over 30 years, nothing any more can ever annoy me, I have seen it all and it does not make you feel any better to become annoyed.
Wait, it is the bum that the boxman allows to play, that always reaches into his pants and smells his hands after words...yes, that STILL annoys me to no end.
Throw the bum out! Get me a NEW boxman!

Is it just me does boxman really look like the most boring job on the face ot the earth? Well, maybe right after greeter at Wal-Mart.

Quote: SOOPOO

Then I can argue itis ALWAYS WRONG to make a pass line bet.
Both events, making a pass line bet, and picking up your 8 on a don't, are in the house's favor.

Only Theoretically.

Empirically I have been all my life a pass line bettor, no odds, well a few times and I show a lifetime profit from that type of play.
My blog has more about that.

Quote: SOOPOO

Which is more foolish, a $1000 pass line bet or picking up a $10 8 point on the don'ts?
One costs you about $14 and the other about $1.

That is an apples to oranges type of question.
But, picking up a don't pass point 6 or 8 IS more foolish. giving up a 9.09%(1/11) player's advantage...more foolish

Quote: SOOPOO

Not even close, but will you say that someone betting $1000 on the passline is ALWAYS WRONG?

NO.
It is never wrong to make a pass line bet.
It is one of the best Craps bets to always make.

Quote: SOOPOO

If you are gambling to make money, then you need to find a +EV game. Anyone playing craps, by definition,
is not expecting to make money.

That statement is wrong

Quote: SOOPOO

They are gambling for the thrill, or whatever....

That is perfectly fine.

Quote: SOOPOO

People who make a 'bad' bet are not 'wrong'. If they try to assert that by doing so they are going to make
more money, well, then they would be 'wrong'.

The definition of "wrong" is to remove a bet that HAS a players advantage. +EV
enjoy

There is nothing about rapid craps, that is rapid, and that is the problem! The game stops with ever roll of the dice, unlike rapid roulette where they now get more spins per hour. I have buddies that love that game, they play it for their comp's when they are in town!

There are somethings that can be upgraded, and then you have craps,, that should be left alone! If I wanted to play a type of video game I would just stay at home!

The learning curve is stopped, the person you now are interacting with is a casino worker, or dealer if that is what you want to now call the one or two guys they have walking in back of you, trying to get you to bet and use the monitor the right way! You can's see what anybody else bet!

There are plenty of problems with craps, and late bets, players buying into the game late, money flying across the table when the shooter is shooting, chips in the way, players that think it's neat to stack 25 chips when they could have just put one green chip down!
You still have the guy that wants to stick his hands into the tub when the shooter is shooting, trying to point out something on the table.

The only thing that craps players hate and is stopped by this table is the chips on the table!

If the evil empire of Harrah's thought that players would play this game, they would have taken out all their regular tables already, and replaced them with this game!

Look at why players play craps in the first place, they like the action, it's fast pace, and the social part of the game!
Rapid Craps have none of them!

There is nothing worst than a prop bettor, they will stop a roll from happening every time they play, and you got to love the guy that makes a big red bet, when someone is on a roll, these type of players never even turn off their own bets when they do it, losing all their bets when the guy makes a seven, because the chip was flying across the table when the shooter was shooting!

How about the player that throws a $1000 in the field when the shooters has been making nothing but 6's & 8's, they get their just reward right away, that's a six no field six!

Then you have the come bettor that will put his chips right where the shooter has been landing their dice every time they made a shot, my list goes on, and on. You have guys that have been playing craps for forty-five years and they still do every stupid thing they can to stop a roll dead!

Craps is a fun game for most players even when they know nothing about the game, when they are standing at the table and a point is made everybody knows what just happened, with rapid craps ,most players don't have a clue!

Quote: SOOPOO

Then I can argue itis ALWAYS WRONG to make a pass line bet.
Both events, making a pass line bet, and picking up your 8 on a don't, are in the house's favor.

You are mistaken.
The player has a 9.09% advantage on a point of 6 or 8 on the don't pass.
6 ways to win and 5 ways to lose. (1/11)

Quote: SOOPOO

Which is more foolish, a $1000 pass line bet or picking up a $10 8 point on the don'ts?
One costs you about $14 and the other about $1.

But now what is more foolish?
Making a $1000 pass line bet that has an expected value of -$14
or removing a $1000 don't pass point 6 or 8.

Quote: superrick

If the evil empire of Harrah's thought that players would play this game, they would have taken out all their regular tables already, and replaced them with this game!

The only thing "rapid" at Rapid Craps are the payouts once the dealer enters in the number that rolled. Ten players paid right now, faster than the best craps dealer could ever do.
I think the Rapid Craps is after those that want to play but are intimated by the action on a Craps table.
The players I saw at the Rapid Craps table were 90% or more new to the game or have played it just a few times.

I'm sure after learning the game at Rapid Craps they would "feel" more comfortable at a real Craps table.
Nice to have a choice.
I played 5 hours at Rapid Craps 2 different times and was never tired. Nice to sit and play!

Quote: superrick

There are somethings that can be upgraded, and then you have craps,, that should be left alone! If I wanted to play a type of video game I would just stay at home!

Agreed 1000%. Why mess with something that works? Oh, I know, labor costs. You have to pay a few dealers minimum wage. My guess is typical of casino management more and more will switch since they see the $40/hr they are paying in combined wages but can't see the $100/hr in lost bets because players play less since they no longer enjoy the experience.

OK - a bit off topic and something that I chose not to address when I read it earlier since I believe "to each his own and to thine own self be true."

When I first started playing craps I played the don't exclusively and often picked up the 6 and 8. Then I did some study and found out that after getting past the 7 on the come out roll picking up a 6 to 5 bet was, forgive me AZ, stupid.

However - I have made many stupid bets "just because" and will probably make many more stupid bets "just because" and if someone else wishes to do so - so be it. Once, when I took down a rather sizable place bet after a hit the dealer made a sarcastic comment. I simply said - "if you think it is in my best interests to leave the bet up, pass me your wallet and I'll use your money." He shut up.

Quote: Martin

OK - a bit off topic and something that I chose not to address when I read it earlier since I believe "to each his own and to thine own self be true."

When I first started playing craps I played the don't exclusively and often picked up the 6 and 8. Then I did some study and found out that after getting past the 7 on the come out roll picking up a 6 to 5 bet was, forgive me AZ, stupid.

And, the reason why it is "stupid" is because now the player has a 9.09% advantage and then "gives that up!".

What game in a casino gives you those type of advantage numbers at any point?? Not blackjack, not baccarat...hmmmm
Craps has a bunch of them. 33% player's advantage on the come out roll for a pass line bet. That is a good one.

Quote: Martin

However - I have made many stupid bets "just because" and will probably make many more stupid bets "just because" and if someone else wishes to do so - so be it. Once, when I took down a rather sizable place bet after a hit the dealer made a sarcastic comment. I simply said - "if you think it is in my best interests to leave the bet up, pass me your wallet and I'll use your money." He shut up.

There is a big difference between a "stupid" bet and a "sucker bet".

Good line.
That is telling them!

Quote: guido111

There is a big difference between a "stupid" bet and a "sucker bet".

That is good.
We are not talking about the difference between a return of +1.24 vs. +1.23.
There are blackjack and VP plays that are so close, you could choose to go either way, your cost of doing so is very very small.
But removing a don't bet as a don't player will cost you good money the longer you play that way.

But in Craps, since most players play the same way over and over and over again, the same bets, same amount, same, same, same.
It pays to stay away from the "sucker bets" most of the time. But hey, if you feel like it, toss a $1 on you favorite sucker and see what rolls.

[q=7winner


It is never wrong to make a pass line bet.
It is one of the best Craps bets to always make.

The comment above shows your lack of understanding. Yes, a bet where you lose $1.40 for every $100 is better than a bet you lose $3 for evry hundred. But being 'one of the best' among a bunch of losing bad bets does not make it a good bet. If you are hoping to make money, it is always wrong to make a pass line bet. If you are hoping to enjoy yourself, get the thrill of gambling, then it is a good bet.

Quote: Martin

Ok let's end this then - I agree completely with every one of your points. To wit I am a simple minded moron who should not complain about late bettors and just thank whomever it is for the game of craps.

I think he's trying to say that without the people who you mention get you so upset, the game of craps wouldn't exist, at least not in its present form, and certainly not with such low HE bets available.

Quote: mkl654321

I think he's trying to say that without the people who you mention get you so upset, the game of craps wouldn't exist, at least not in its present form, and certainly not with such low HE bets available.

That's not correct - the game of craps would still exist if the late betting morons didn't play.

But I'm still a simple minded moron who should not complain about late bettors and just thank whomever it is for the game of craps.

And this indeed is my last post in this thread.

No one said they can't make those bets...make all of them you want. Just stop making them when the stick says "they move"...that is neither hard to do nor hard to control. The people playing will follow the rules and continue to play if you treat them fairly and forcefully when telling them "no more late bets accepted" or "hands up". You have to decide what costs the house more--losing a player that plays long sessions with a decent bankroll or an ignorant one who plays $20 and moves along--and work towards getting more of the one you make the most money on at the table.

A well-controlled and paced game is so much more enjoyable than one where people just do whatever the heck they want...

Quote: SOOPOO

If you are hoping to make money, it is always wrong to make a pass line bet.

What do you recommend instead? Big Red?

Quote: SOOPOO

A bet where you lose $1.40 for every $100 is better than a bet you lose $3 for evry hundred. But being 'one of the best' among a bunch of losing bad bets does not make it a good bet. If you are hoping to make money, it is always wrong to make a pass line bet.

So which other bet has a lower house edge (and, yes, that's before taking odds)?

We have heard from many here that there are certain VP games with + EV, as well as certain blackjack counting opportunities that result in + EV. There are no craps bets with a + EV. There are no roulette bids with a + EV. Games with potential dealer error, like Pai Gow poker, and now especially Asia Poker, give possible +EV opportunities. I never imply that one should not bet the pass line, and then take odds, in craps. It is fun to do so. As long as you know you are 'paying' for that fun.

Quote: SOOPOO

Games with potential dealer error, like Pai Gow poker, and now especially Asia Poker, give possible +EV opportunities.

As the Wizard says about Asia Poker, "The game owner tells me the house edge is 4.82%. Based on my own analysis, I think this figure is correct."

Your entire point seems to be based on the dealer's making a whole lot of errors. Not many casinos would let that continue for any length of time.

And it's not as if craps dealers don't make errors, as we've seen pretty darn frequently here.

In October i played at Paris for 2 hours at about $20 per hand. The dealer made MANY errors. If they were in my favor, I stayed mum. When pointing them out would help me, I just pointed them out. I made $400 during that 'session', and only left because I had dinner plans. I would say the great majority of my winnings were from dealer error. At the Rio the same thing happened, but only with one dealer who was subbed for frequently. My quick session there resulted in + $300. Forgetting the dealer errors, there are some house ways that are absurd. One hand I remember is the house played a straight to have a q 7 in the second hand instead of a flush with a q 6. This turned a loss into a win for me. I will not dispute you that it likely won't continue, but it was very good for me.
The worst dealer I ever saw was at a Mesquite casino. The dealer was almost oblivious to the rules of poker. In Pai Gow, she made error after error with a hushed table. She then split kings, and when the dumb blonde at the table asked her why she did that, the pit boss noticed. He basically set her hands from then on.
But my point is really that there are no real opportunities in craps or roulette.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Your entire point seems to be based on the dealer's making a whole lot of errors. Not many casinos would let that continue for any length of time.

I sure wouldn't try to make a career out of searching for neophyte dealers but if one happens to "luck into" such a situation, then I guess its a question of luck and ethics and the tendency of others at the table to keep their yaps shut.

I do know of a few incidents wherein a dealer made a mistake, the floor person was standing right there... and yet a losing hand got paid while the player amiably chatted with the floor. Some of those dealers have been sent to deal "the carny games" as punishment or as a last minute whim of "the pencil" who suddenly needed to get a certain table manned. Some of the dealers really do not know the game they've been assigned to and sometimes the floor person is not alert. Its rare though. I'm told that once Surveillance phoned down to ask why a dealer had a player when the dealer had 21. The exact language used by the pit personnel is lost to history but the table involved was 3CP or something like that. Then of course there was the new dealer at some LIR or something who was told by the players that Deuces were wild. The players had a fun night and a profitable one until some idiot spoke up and ruined the fun.

The top tier casinos have dealers who know their job... they may make mistakes, but they know their job. Often they are extremely alert also. The break in houses have inexperienced trainees and some dealers pulling an extra shift or on such a weird rotation that they are not functioning well, but mistakes will be against you or for you. You have to be alert. The middle tier casinos have dealers that often get weird rotations and may be half asleep but even with a few mistakes and some "illegal" player collaboration the house seems to do okay.

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: 7winner

It is never wrong to make a pass line bet.
It is one of the best Craps bets to always make.

The comment above shows your lack of understanding. Yes, a bet where you lose $1.40 for every $100 is better than a bet you lose $3 for evry hundred. But being 'one of the best' among a bunch of losing bad bets does not make it a good bet. If you are hoping to make money, it is always wrong to make a pass line bet.

I disagree. If you are hoping to make money, a pass line bet, backed with odds, gives you a reasonable hope. However, you should not EXPECT to make money. There is a big difference.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA