Casino Double Standards, Player cheated out of $900 at Sands PA

I'm pretty fed up with Casino double standards and last night at Sands PA I couldn't believe my eyes.

At a $25 minimum table with a Max. Bet of $1000, a middle-aged man was playing $100-$500 Per hand with about $3000 in black chips. He ramped his bet up to $1000 and got dealt Q-7 vs dealer Ace. Dealer did not have blackjack but did have a 7 in the hole to beat him. Next hand the guy pushes all his remaining black chips in the circle and the dealer deals him 8-2 vs Dealer 8. He hits and gets a 7, he stands and the dealer turns over K for 18.

As the dealer reaches in to take the stack of Black chips, the player says "Wait, too much money. Table max $1000!" The dealer calls the floor who asks for a pit supervisor to count the black chips and it adds up to $1900, $900 over the table max. So they then decide to"check the tape". After several minutes of deliberating, they deem that the bet stands and the guy lost fairly. They use the excuse that if he had won and they paid him, he would not have given the money back, so therefore they won't give the money back after the hand is over.

Not only is this illegal but very unlike Sands to not honor their own rules. Numerous times, I've seen them overpay someone and then a phone call comes in 30 minutes or more later, they send a floor person accompanied by security guards to take the money back. They've done this for as a much as $500 to as little as $10. But whenever they paid someone too much money, they almost always got it back. I've also seen them allow big bettors to bet over the minimum on side bets like Kings Bounty & 3 Card Poker and take the money every time they lose, but as soon as they win, they say "the maximum is $50 and you bet $100, So we're only going to pay half!"

So now they get caught taking more money than they should and refuse to honor their own rules? Just truly pathetic practices from this place.

I was there last night, and although its not the same situation, the dealer didnt check for BJ and let position one hit a card, then said woops have to check and had BJ. I know i cant have my money back but mistakes usually allow people to take their money back. That kind of mistake im almost sure its still a win for them.

sorry but they followed the rules. From the gaming manual.

§ 601a.6. Minimum and maximum wagers; additional wagering requirements;
payout odds.
(a) Certificate holders shall establish minimum and maximum wagers for any authorized
table game in a licensed facility.
(b) A certificate holder shall provide notice of the minimum and maximum wagers in
effect at each gaming table, and any changes thereto, in accordance with § 601a.7 (relating to
rules of the games; notice).
(c) Any wager accepted by a dealer that exceeds the current table maximum or is lower
than the current table minimum shall be paid or lost in its entirety in accordance with the rules of
the game.

Quote: GWAE

(c) Any wager accepted by a dealer that exceeds the current table maximum or is lower
than the current table minimum shall be paid or lost in its entirety in accordance with the rules of
the game.

I think the problem he is getting at (if true) is that the casino cant have it both ways. He says he has witnessed them requesting winning back that were over the maximum bet. If this is true, it violates part c as the dealer accepted the bet.

I have to side with the casino here. If it lays it plays. And you can bet he would have demanded payout if he won.

If you are going to play at the grown up table across like a grown up.

Quote: VCUSkyhawk

I think the problem he is getting at (if true) is that the casino cant have it both ways. He says he has witnessed them requesting winning back that were over the maximum bet. If this is true, it violates part c as the dealer accepted the bet.

There is a very big difference between the dealer accepting a wager over or under the posted min/max and an improper over/under pay or an improper take/lose. The first (the scenario in the OP) is subject to the rule posted. The latter is a mistake by the dealer, which needs to be remedied.

Believe it or not, in a few situations I have heard of people being paid a long time after the event when it was picked up that the player was underpaid on a wager (I will concede that this may not be the norm and doesn't happen as often as it should). However, of course the player will need a player's card in the system in order for this to happen (these examples are not from PA).

You are correct Mrsuit. I just reread and it is a completely different scenario.

Quote: mrsuit31

There is a very big difference between the dealer accepting a wager over or under the posted min/max and an improper over/under pay or an improper take/lose. The first (the scenario in the OP) is subject to the rule posted. The latter is a mistake by the dealer, which needs to be remedied.

Believe it or not, in a few situations I have heard of people being paid a long time after the event when it was picked up that the player was underpaid on a wager (I will concede that this may not be the norm and doesn't happen as often as it should). However, of course the player will need a player's card in the system in order for this to happen (these examples are not from PA).

Well the OP also says the following, which sounds the same to me as accepting the above table max losing BJ bet: “I've also seen them allow big bettors to bet over the minimum on side bets like Kings Bounty & 3 Card Poker and take the money every time they lose, but as soon as they win, they say "the maximum is $50 and you bet $100, So we're only going to pay half!"”

Quote: GWAE

sorry but they followed the rules. From the gaming manual.

§ 601a.6. Minimum and maximum wagers; additional wagering requirements;
payout odds.
(a) Certificate holders shall establish minimum and maximum wagers for any authorized
table game in a licensed facility.
(b) A certificate holder shall provide notice of the minimum and maximum wagers in
effect at each gaming table, and any changes thereto, in accordance with § 601a.7 (relating to
rules of the games; notice).
(c) Any wager accepted by a dealer that exceeds the current table maximum or is lower
than the current table minimum shall be paid or lost in its entirety in accordance with the rules of
the game.

That’s interesting. I play at Sands PA often, and while playing roullete in the high limit area ($500 max on the inside) I had a gray $5000 chip in my hand. There was a bunch of people playing and many large stacks of chips on the board. I asked the pit manager what would happen if I put the $5000 chip on a number and it won and the dealer didn’t notice it there because of all the chips on top of it and large stacks on numbers near it that kinda hid my chip. He said I’d only get paid $17,500 (the max bet payout) and not the $175,000 I should get paid. Then I says what happens if my 5k chip was on a number and it didn’t win. He told me after the dealer sweeps it, they’d refund me $4500, the amount over the max that I was

Quote: michael99000

That’s interesting. I play at Sands PA often, and while playing roullete in the high limit area ($500 max on the inside) I had a gray $5000 chip in my hand. There was a bunch of people playing and many large stacks of chips on the board. I asked the pit manager what would happen if I put the $5000 chip on a number and it won and the dealer didn’t notice it there because of all the chips on top of it and large stacks on numbers near it that kinda hid my chip. He said I’d only get paid $17,500 (the max bet payout) and not the $175,000 I should get paid. Then I says what happens if my 5k chip was on a number and it didn’t win. He told me after the dealer sweeps it, they’d refund me $4500, the amount over the max that I was

ignorance in either case is a loss for either side.

if the pit manager is willing to pay that accidental non-win back its amount over, then the casino loses, as it is obviously a law that is on the casinos side.

and a loss in your case if you accidentally bet an amount over the max and they accidentally accept it.

At the old Sands in AC, I spread to three hands playing 3CP.
Player next to me complained that I had taken his hand. Pit tried to call it a dead hand but a kurfuffle occurred. After long consultation on the phone, they offered us the choice to keep our hands or get a refund. I was told to surrender all hands or keep all.
I'd honestly not known you couldn't play three hands so I decided to surrender, even though it cost a few bucks.
Pit made sure everyone understood you could only play two hands.

Quote: VCUSkyhawk

I think the problem he is getting at (if true) is that the casino cant have it both ways. He says he has witnessed them requesting winning back that were over the maximum bet. If this is true, it violates part c as the dealer accepted the bet.

Bingo, they have no problem shorting players on winning bets over the table max, but they won't follow their own rule on a dealer oversight.

This was the exact reason the dealer is required to yell out "Black Action" or Table Max anytime a whale is ramping up their bets. The dealer did neither and they determined it was better to take the guy's $900 instead of give it back, follow their own rules and probably give themselves the opportunity to get that back on the next hand(s). He surely would have kept blasting away with the big bets and eventually lost it all back had he kept playing(which he did after the erroneous call).

The real problem is, Sands PA is so packed and busy, they really don't consider him a whale or big bettor by their standards. For them, a guy betting $500-$1000 per hand is just another Saturday night!

I have given back the overage many times. I can't believe the rule in PA is that the bet counts in its entirety. The $5000 cheque in roulette buried under a stack of ones is a scam waiting to happen.

Quote: BedWetterBetter

Numerous times, I've seen them overpay someone and then a phone call comes in 30 minutes or more later, they send a floor person accompanied by security guards to take the money back. They've done this for as a much as $500 to as little as $10. But whenever they paid someone too much money, they almost always got it back.

As horrible as that type of business practice is, a lot of that is on the customer for not knowing their rights and being responsible for their money.

As soon as someone ever tries that with me, the chips are in my pocket, my phone is out recording and I'm saying "I would like to go home, please let me go, don't touch me, I want my lawyer." The law says security can only detain someone if they witnessed a felony, and most of the time they do try to detain someone illegally (the only way they're getting those chips from me), they end up paying a lot more than $500 for it.

Unless we have a theft situation If I ever have to ask for money back, I will usually ask nicely, one time, and then if the player does not want to give it up, we will eat the loss.

If a player is paid money that belongs to another player, I will try a little harder to get that money back and give it to its rightful owner.

Quote: FCBLComish

Unless we have a theft situation If I ever have to ask for money back, I will usually ask nicely, one time, and then if the player does not want to give it up, we will eat the loss.

If a player is paid money that belongs to another player, I will try a little harder to get that money back and give it to its rightful owner.

this sounds actually scary

Quote: TomG

As horrible as that type of business practice is, a lot of that is on the customer for not knowing their rights and being responsible for their money.

As soon as someone ever tries that with me, the chips are in my pocket, my phone is out recording and I'm saying "I would like to go home, please let me go, don't touch me, I want my lawyer." The law says security can only detain someone if they witnessed a felony, and most of the time they do try to detain someone illegally (the only way they're getting those chips from me), they end up paying a lot more than $500 for it.

last night i had a guy swear that a casino they were at did it for 10 dollars to a guy and brought the security to them and everything you said. it is hard to believe as ive only seen security call down and tell the pit manager to do this without the backup.

Quote: BedWetterBetter

Bingo, they have no problem shorting players on winning bets over the table max, but they won't follow their own rule on a dealer oversight.

This was the exact reason the dealer is required to yell out "Black Action" or Table Max anytime a whale is ramping up their bets. The dealer did neither and they determined it was better to take the guy's $900 instead of give it back, follow their own rules and probably give themselves the opportunity to get that back on the next hand(s). He surely would have kept blasting away with the big bets and eventually lost it all back had he kept playing(which he did after the erroneous call).

The real problem is, Sands PA is so packed and busy, they really don't consider him a whale or big bettor by their standards. For them, a guy betting $500-$1000 per hand is just another Saturday night!

there was the smallest chinese girl at the sands bethlehem last night and she bet 6 out of 7 hands at table max (1000 on 15 min) and won 6 of them. it was insanely lucky and she apparently is a normal who noramlly bets 1000 a hand

Quote: GWAE

sorry but they followed the rules. From the gaming manual.

§ 601a.6. Minimum and maximum wagers; additional wagering requirements;
payout odds.
(a) Certificate holders shall establish minimum and maximum wagers for any authorized
table game in a licensed facility.
(b) A certificate holder shall provide notice of the minimum and maximum wagers in
effect at each gaming table, and any changes thereto, in accordance with § 601a.7 (relating to
rules of the games; notice).
(c) Any wager accepted by a dealer that exceeds the current table maximum or is lower
than the current table minimum shall be paid or lost in its entirety in accordance with the rules of
the game.

Is this from the State gaming regulations ?

Quote: TomG

As horrible as that type of business practice is, a lot of that is on the customer for not knowing their rights and being responsible for their money.

As soon as someone ever tries that with me, the chips are in my pocket, my phone is out recording and I'm saying "I would like to go home, please let me go, don't touch me, I want my lawyer." The law says security can only detain someone if they witnessed a felony, and most of the time they do try to detain someone illegally (the only way they're getting those chips from me), they end up paying a lot more than $500 for it.

While you would be able to leave the premises with the ill-gotten chips, they would certainly deny you a cash out that day. They would probably have you on camera and if you used a player's card, then they could come after you legally for the money.

I'm sure you probably don't use a player's card and would simply bring someone(like a friend or sibling) with you and hand the chips to that friend or family member on your next visit and have them do 2 or 3 cashouts to avoid suspicion.

But the casino can call the local or state police to follow & detain you if they can prove on film you were overpaid. I've seen it happen before.

Quote: BedWetterBetter

But the casino can call the local or state police to follow & detain you if they can prove on film you were overpaid. I've seen it happen before.

This is now starting to sound made up. What law says that it is a crime to be overpaid by a dealer?

I would love for them to use their resources trying to get the money back through the legal system. Between lawyer fees and bad press it would be so obviously a loss for them their share holders would revolt.

Quote: TomG

This is now starting to sound made up. What law says that it is a crime to be overpaid by a dealer?

I would love for them to use their resources trying to get the money back through the legal system. Between lawyer fees and bad press it would be so obviously a loss for them their share holders would revolt.

Stealing money from a casino, in any form, is considered a crime. If you are confronted by security or floor personnel and refuse to give back money from an overpayment, they can press charges if they wish. Depending on the amount, they can call in the local law enforcement to prosecute you.

If you leave before they talk to you, they can note it in your file(if you used a player card) or even send a letter to your mailing address requesting the money back. Of course you have the right to ignore the request, but it would certainly follow you from property to property depending on where the incident occurred.

Quote: BedWetterBetter

Stealing money from a casino, in any form, is considered a crime.

Receiving an overpayment from a dealer is not stealing (according to the law; it is according to some people’s morals). For the casino to falsely report it to the police as stealing in order for them to detain a customer would be illegal. And if it happened a certain type of customer who did know their rights, it could end up costing the casino a lot more than the few dollars they were trying to get back.

The casino could take it through a civil process where they pay for a lawyer (costing them a lot more than whatever they were trying to get back). No District Attorney in the US would ever touch a case like that

Quote: TomG

Receiving an overpayment from a dealer is not stealing (according to the law; it is according to some people’s morals). For the casino to falsely report it to the police as stealing in order for them to detain a customer would be illegal. And if it happened a certain type of customer who did know their rights, it could end up costing the casino a lot more than the few dollars they were trying to get back.

The casino could take it through a civil process where they pay for a lawyer (costing them a lot more than whatever they were trying to get back). No District Attorney in the US would ever touch a case like that

You're splitting hairs and only using half of what's said to jump to wild conclusions. Knowingly taking money that you did not earn in a casino is considered stealing by any standard. Granted, it happens every day, probably every hour at any local gaming hole. But that does not make it right or even legal.

The casino can go back and review any payout. If they find there was an overpayment they will reprimand the casino employee, whether dealer, slot attendant or cashier and then attempt to collect it back from the customer. Normally, they put a note in the customer's file, if that person used a player's card, and politely ask for the money back. If that person refuses, they are now knowingly stealing from the casino. Like I said earlier, depending on the amount they CAN choose to press charges. Didn't say that they will no matter what!

Again, look at the entire statement before responding.

I once placed $3000. on the tie bet at Venetian and it hit paid $24,000. At that time the table limit at Baccarat was $15,000. They paid me the $24,000.

At Bellagio at that time they had the same table limit of $15,000. with the limit on the tie bet of $3000., which I had hit more than once at Bellagio.

On this occasion a while after Venetian paid me the $24,000., the phone rang, and the pit boss eventually told me that they had made a mistake, that the Venetian limit on the tie bet was $2000., for a maximum $16,000. pay off, and that whatever they paid me already would stand, but that they would not accept a higher than $2000. tie bet from me in the future. I told them that I had merely assumed that since their max bet was $15K same as Bellagio that Venetian had the same $3K limit on the tie bet.

At the Hard Rock, at that time I had a special limit of $10,000. on their Baccarat (for most players was $5000.), and they would accept no more than $1250. from me on the tie, to pay no more than the table max $10,000. So at the Hard Rock, they didn't want to pay out more than my table max whether it was a straight bet or a tie bet.

Mind you, I wasn't going around betting multi thousand dollar tie bets all the time. I rarely bet the tie bet, even more rarely betting thousands on it, but when I was running extremely hot and way up, I would bet it sometimes, and more often than not, hit it.

So, anyway, as far as max bets and payouts - yeah - it can be confusing, and mistakes do happen.

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As far as dealer paying money when you have lost, such as when they paid me for a table max bet blackjack when I actually had only 20, and had actually lost to the dealer 21, that is not stealing. I am reading a lot of incomprehensible and moralistic nonsense about this sort of thing in this thread.

There is also a lot of speculation about "what will happen" if the casino figures out that a mistake was made with a payout for what should have been a loss. None of those posting about "what will happen" have any idea what will happen and are merely speculating.

I can comment on a real world situation I am personally familiar with, a friend of mine was handed a hundred thousand dollars too much on a marker that the casino did not have him sign for. Later they confronted him and his position was steadfast, he told them to show him the signed marker to prove that he owed the $100K, or stop bothering him. They could not show him the marker, and that was the end of it. No tape replay, no nothing. Without that signed instrument there was nothing the casino could do to the guy.

Based on that real world situation I doubt the casino could do much of anything to someone who was paid for the CASINO'S mistake, and anyone claiming otherwise here is just speculating. There is a big difference between being actually PAID for a mistake, and the casino's REFUSING to pay because of a mistake. Once you are paid, if it is because of casino error and no action on your part, that is the end of it.

Quote: MDawg

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As far as dealer paying money when you have lost, such as when they paid me for a table max bet blackjack when I actually had only 20, and had actually lost to the dealer 21, that is not stealing. I am reading a lot of incomprehensible and moralistic nonsense about this sort of thing in this thread.

There is also a lot of speculation about "what will happen" if the casino figures out that a mistake was made with a payout for what should have been a loss. None of those posting about "what will happen" have any idea what will happen and are merely speculating.

I can comment on a real world situation I am personally familiar with, a friend of mine was handed a hundred thousand dollars too much on a marker that the casino did not have him sign for. Later they confronted him and his position was steadfast, he told them to show him the signed marker to prove that he owed the $100K, or stop bothering him. They could not show him the marker, and that was the end of it. No tape replay, no nothing. Without that signed instrument there was nothing the casino could do to the guy.

Based on that real world situation I doubt the casino could do much of anything to someone who was paid for the CASINO'S mistake, and anyone claiming otherwise here is just speculating. There is a big difference between being actually PAID for a mistake, and the casino's REFUSING to pay because of a mistake. Once you are paid, if it is because of casino error and no action on your part, that is the end of it.

And you Assuming that this is based upon "speculation" is just as asinine as you accusing of someone else of fabricating things when they are reporting facts based on actual events. I have seen first hand, the house come and take money from players after overpaying them. From as little as $10 to as much as $5000, if they can prove it on video. It may not happen that way in Vegas because there is so much money going in, they are not affected by it. However, on the East Cost, namely Atlantic City and Eastern PA it is more common place.

I am speaking from experience and first hand eye witnessing of overpays being not only tracked but brought up to a player on his return visit. The guy asked them to prove it to him and they took him to the back to show him the video tape. He came back out 30 minutes later and complained about how they hassled him "All that for $50?, this place really is in the dumps."

The fact you are using a story about $100,000 being overpaid and not getting reviewed and approved properly is suspect. They would have had to count the marker at least 3 times and have a dealer sign off on it, a Pit Manager approve it and a Security guard watch over everything. So either these three were on the take with the alleged overpaid customer or the casino is so poorly run they hire people who can't count at any level. But again, I'm not going to pass judgment as I do not play in Vegas and can't comment on their practices or how fast things move when changing money.

Just because you haven't seen something yourself doesn't mean it has never or can never happen. So we'll just agree to disagree.

I saw George Hamilton drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's, and his hair was perfect.