Casinos should have the right to bar perceived advantage players from playing

Just threw it over to "YES". The state should not force anyone to enter into contracts just because those contracts are frequently offered to other people.

Sure. Casinos should be encouraged to ban any player who is winning, and are free do decide whether to pay monetary value for his chips, not pay it, or confiscate the chip, the latter being advised in case of winning players. Here is the solution to America's gambling problem, brought on a silver platter.

Seriously speaking, there are virtually no casino games where a non-cheating player can actually win long-term (counting hole-carding and shuffle-tracking as mild forms of cheating). They don't offer 100.2% payback on VP for no reason, it wouldn't change the paytable much to offer 99.8%; they offer it to make players feel they are at an advantage.
In Blackjack, it's impossible to gain an edge flat-betting; you can have perfect playing and insurance efficiency, know the exact composition of the remaining deck/shoe, and the house will still be ahead. High table maximums are designed to provoke tourists to overbet their bankroll and lose their winnings and more, and the possibility of counters taking advantage of it is a fair price to pay.

Offering games that can be beaten, advertising them with the implication they can be beaten, and then banning anyone actually trying to beat them is nothing more than a mild form of "extract their losses, keep their winnings" business strategy.


Having said that, I don't believe it is the state's duty to regulate casinos to stop these practices. As a libertarian, I believe it is the players' duty to ignore casinos practicing this business model. Nonetheless, it still does strongly reek of mob mentality.

Hmm, suppose you have this scenario... A car dealer offers a free item just for showing up. They do it every weekend. Finally, the dealer notices that some of the same people keep showing up and getting the free items, but never contribute anything to the bottom line. So, they make it a point to say these people aren't welcome and ban them from the lot. But they keep advertisiing the same ad, every week, "free item, just for showing up". Which is true, except for certain people. And the ad never says that certain people will be barred.

Okay, I don't know if that was such a good comparison (but I tried)/

Well, it's kind of different. High-skill players still play the game and pay for playing. But since the game involves both chance and skill, they have a greater chance of getting ahead than average players. That's really all there is to it.

I agree the casinos should have means of recourse against players trying to use them as five to nine, but most "counters" that get caught this way are random guys that just read about Hi-Lo and have no idea about camouflage. And even then the means of recourse can be simply limiting a player to 1-2 bet spread (well enough to defeat any advantage possible from counting); bans are a vindictive measure, not defensive.

I agree they should ban people who know how to play. Conversely they should invoke the "Calvinball" rules from Calvin and Hobbes.

"Sir, could you please leave the establishment? You can leave your chips with me and we will not press charges."
"What did I do?"
"This is the second time you hit 16 against a 7. We do not take kindly to this sort of behavior here."

Hey pay them not to play. A few AP's can do damage not only in their claims, but also can wipeout tables, and stop other players from sitting down. If there's
a history with that player in that casino. Can keep bets down, and the ones that likes to carry cheerful conversations as they feed on 3 hours of acomplishment.
Yeah pay them, it would help me..

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Counting in no way is cheating in ANY form and the lawmakers and courts have said so. Cheating is a FELONY and I am sure if counting was cheating that the casinos would have these/us players locked up and the key thrown away.

If counting is legal then why can't you record the played cards on a machine or computer program? You're saying it's legal to count in your head but not on a machine?

Quote: dm

If counting is legal then why can't you record the played cards on a machine or computer program? You're saying it's legal to count in your head but not on a machine?

Bingo. Most gaming statutes state that using an "aid" to count is prohibited. Since card counting can be done with your brain, they can't make it illegal without throwing everyone out of the casino. They will make it harder for you to count, but it's legal according to the statutes.

-B

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Quote: dm

If counting is legal then why can't you record the played cards on a machine or computer program? You're saying it's legal to count in your head but not on a machine?

For the same reason you can't bring a machine in to calculate the speed and rotation of a Roulette wheel and ball.

For the same reason you can't use a cell phone while at the table.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

You cant use a device or machine on any game. And no, players dont track cards in baccarat, they track trends. As far as I am concerned, you should be able to keep track of cards on paper, etc, just as the casinos should be able to "not serve" you and ask you to leave.

Surely you can use a calculator to keep the count. Why try to keep it in your head? Counting is legal, right? Pretty dumb to try to remember it.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

For the same reason you can't bring a machine in to calculate the speed and rotation of a Roulette wheel and ball.

For the same reason you can't use a cell phone while at the table.

How silly at a BJ table! So, just keep a note pad in front of you and write down each card that appears. Then adjust your count while waiting for the next hand. Don't tell me a pencil is a machine.

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Quote: dm

How silly at a BJ table! So, just keep a note pad in front of you and write down each card that appears. Then adjust your count while waiting for the next hand. Don't tell me a pencil is a machine.

They provide pads and pencils at the Baccarat table, and it totally slows the game down. But everyone takes notes, and the casino believes there is no player advantage. So they accept the slow play, and encourage note taking.

At BJ, there IS a player advantage, not to mention that they don't want to slow the game down, so you can't even take notes.

At BJ, if you can't count in your head, you can't count period.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

They provide pads and pencils at the Baccarat table, and it totally slows the game down. But everyone takes notes, and the casino believes there is no player advantage. So they accept the slow play, and encourage note taking.

At BJ, there IS a player advantage, not to mention that they don't want to slow the game down, so you can't even take notes.

At BJ, if you can't count in your head, you can't count period.

Despite all the BS you guys are spouting, counting is NOT ALLOWED at BJ. Hence, you cannot use pencil and paper. If they have reason to believe you are counting in your head, then you are NOT ALLOWED to play. So why not play something where you don't have to cheat? VP at some places?

Quote: dm

Despite all the BS you guys are spouting, counting is NOT ALLOWED at BJ.

You've never played blackjack in Atlantic City, have you? I'm going to leave it at that.

-B

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Quote: dm

Despite all the BS you guys are spouting, counting is NOT ALLOWED at BJ. Hence, you cannot use pencil and paper. If they have reason to believe you are counting in your head, then you are NOT ALLOWED to play. So why not play something where you don't have to cheat? VP at some places?

Of course card counting is allowed. Counting is simply a combination of (a) making bets of varying sizes, which is allowed, and (b) remembering the cards, which is also allowed. What's not allowed is using a device to keep track of the probabilities in a game, which is what remembering the cards does in blackjack. So, no calculators. I'm unclear on whether using pen/paper would be "a device" according to the regulations, but in such cases, whenever there is ambiguity, it is typically resolved in favor of the casino. But to my knowledge there is no law anywhere that prohibits a player from varying their bets or remembering the cards that have been dealt.

Quote: dm

Surely you can use a calculator to keep the count. Why try to keep it in your head? Counting is legal, right? Pretty dumb to try to remember it.

I think you are confused about law and casino rules. The fact is many casinos 86 people assumed to count however in many cases card counters who have sued the casino end in a settlement due to the fact that the casino knows they will lose in a court case. So NO card counting is not an illegal activity.
If you can find on the NV legal code a crime for card counting I am sure many of us would appreciate the edification.

I use the term NOT ALLOWED! I think you are confused.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

MGM Detroit knows I count and they let me play unabused. They look for the ones that make $5000+ not us smaller stakes guys and I learned that from a pit manager. I just dont play a huge spread anymore when I do play. They know I profit off of them and they dont bother me because they know they more than make up for it from the ploppies that have no idea how to play and play stupid sucker bets like perfect pairs and hi-tie. If they wanted me to leave I am sure they would tell me but they havent in 10+ years now. I consistantly split tens or double A9 vs 5 if the count is right. And when a casino puts a sign up saying that counting is not allowed, I will believe that it is not allowed. Just sounds like a jealous player that consistantly loses at the game or gambling in general. VP is for losers, plain and simple except in the rare instance you find a 100%+ payback machine. Casinos fear consistant winners, not counters, and will bar them if they can or get the chance if they feel that the player is a threat to the bottom line.

I have not a single criticism of you if that is your situation. I would love to join you.

Here is a recent decision from Indiana saying casinos have the right to exclude card counters. The Indiana Supreme Court basically relied on property rights doctirne saying casinos aren't public places and have the shopkeeper's right to exclude anyone for any reason (as long as it isn't discriminatory).

Interestingly, the appeals court, which the supreme court overturned, relied on Uston v. Resorts Intl. to say that card counting is not something casinos can bar you for, and ruled in favor of the card counter. Their decision.

I heartily disagree with the Indiana Supreme Court's decision. However, one justice dissented in the case, and I wholeheartedly agree with his opinion:

"Permitting a casino to restrict its patrons only to those customers who lack the skill and ability to play such games well intrudes upon principles of fair and equal competition and provides unfair financial advantages and rewards to casino operators. I am not persuaded that such schemes are supported or protected by any common law right or privilege."

Quote: dm

I use the term NOT ALLOWED! I think you are confused.

I think you are the confused one. You said "Counting is legal, right?" Yes it is.
Try to remember what you say in previous posts it will make things go quicker.
The rules of the casino prohibit you from using a device to record the results. It is a rule of the establishment not a law.

Quote: toastcmu

Bingo. Most gaming statutes state that using an "aid" to count is prohibited. Since card counting can be done with your brain, they can't make it illegal without throwing everyone out of the casino. They will make it harder for you to count, but it's legal according to the statutes.

-B

However, if they figure out a way to identify and throw out everyone who HAS a brain, they'll do that.

Quote: Wavy70

I think you are the confused one. You said "Counting is legal, right?" Yes it is.
Try to remember what you say in previous posts it will make things go quicker.
The rules of the casino prohibit you from using a device to record the results. It is a rule of the establishment not a law.

Actually, in Nevada at least, it's the law. It's against the law, a felony I believe, for a player to use any kind of "device" to aid his gambling.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

MGM Detroit knows I count and they let me play unabused. They look for the ones that make $5000+ .

So you think if you won $4000 every time you played, they would let you get away with counting? Are you serious? The truth is, if they consider you a threat to the bottom line of the table you're playing, you're history. If he told you 5K, he's jerking your chain.

Quote: mkl654321

Actually, in Nevada at least, it's the law. It's against the law, a felony I believe, for a player to use any kind of "device" to aid his gambling.

Can you find that law and what is considered a device. A card counter uses his brain or a bad one his fingers. I have never been barred from bringing my fingers to the table.
I see many people recording the results of mini bac and roulette.

Quote: Wavy70

I see many people recording the results of mini bac and roulette.

Thats because they believe bac and roulette can't be beaten. And they can prove it, just like they could prove BJ couldn't be beaten, once upon a time..

Quote: Wavy70

Can you find that law and what is considered a device. A card counter uses his brain or a bad one his fingers. I have never been barred from bringing my fingers to the table.
I see many people recording the results of mini bac and roulette.

From http://leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html

Quote: NRS 465.075

Use of device for calculating probabilities. It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the Commission.

Your body is not a device, but a calculator or an iPhone is.

Quote: EvenBob

Thats because they believe bac and roulette can't be beaten. And they can prove it, just like they could prove BJ couldn't be beaten, once upon a time..

Who is "they" that ever proved BJ couldn't be beaten?

Quote: MathExtremist

From http://leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html



Your body is not a device, but a calculator or an iPhone is.

As I was saying to MKL a counter uses his brain. I was wondering if he considered that a device.

Quote: Wavy70

Can you find that law and what is considered a device. A card counter uses his brain or a bad one his fingers. I have never been barred from bringing my fingers to the table.
I see many people recording the results of mini bac and roulette.

You don't seem to understand.

Recording the results of roulette spins or baccarat outcomes can't possibly help the player; that's why they allow it. In fact, in many instances, the casino "helps" the player by displaying the most recent results.

NRS 465.075 Use of device for calculating probabilities.

It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:

1. In projecting the outcome of the game;

2. In keeping track of the cards played;

3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or

4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

except as permitted by the commission.

The meaning of "device" is its standard dictionary meaning;

de·vice (d-v s) n. 1. A contrivance or an invention serving a particular purpose, especially a machine used to perform one or more relatively simple tasks.

Your brain and your memory are not "machines". Therefore you can legally use them.

Quote: dm

Despite all the BS you guys are spouting, counting is NOT ALLOWED at BJ. Hence, you cannot use pencil and paper. If they have reason to believe you are counting in your head, then you are NOT ALLOWED to play. So why not play something where you don't have to cheat? VP at some places?

I believe most of your post was corrected by the forum, specifically the difference between a device and your brain, and use of the term 'cheat'. I didn't happen to notice, though, anyone reply about the 'NOT ALLOWED' point. I'm not the most knowledgable, but I don't recall counting as being deemed 'unallowable' and know for a fact it's not illegal. I personally love 'counters', the majority of them fund my paycheck. If not for these people, my salary would be in jeopardy. I love to see them come in as it gives me a jolt of 'atta boy' when I can catch them doing it. And if it were up to me, I'd ban not a one of em (and none have been so far at my place) as not a single one of them have shown the power to take us down. Before the counters here rail me saying they consistently make bucks doing it, and they do it all the time...I'm not talking about YOU lol. Obviously the people here are more aware, more refined than the average Rain-Man watchers or good-with-numbers guy, and I do believe counting can be done successfully. But it's a damn pain in the ass for even brighter than average people, not to mention Joe Sunday. It's one hell of a lot of work and mentally exhausting, and with the thousands of casino's around nowadays, the chances of some super-high rolling, smart as a tack, God of counting coming in and bringing the place to it's knees just isn't very likely, especially in this information age where everyones tracked and taped and sent around the world at a click of the mouse.

But the OP's question was 'should have the right', which implies opinion. That's good, because if it was 'do they have the right' then I wouldn't have had the legal knowledge to comment =P. And as my opinion, I do believe they should. Have the option, that is. I dont think they should actually do it, for the above reasons, but it's my opinion that people should be able to say who can stay and go in their place of business. People may scream discrimination, but if a place wants to shorten their customer base by not allowing group X, and is willing to receive whatever backlash from whatever community that opposes their decision, then more power to them. But most places wouldn't risk their profit margins and be blatantly discriminate. Personally, if I had a joint, I'd kick out all the falling over barfing drunks, panhandlers, TITO stealers, pants-poopers, dealer abusers, scream-across-the-floor people, and Buffalo area professional sports fans I could, and curse you for saying I couldn't. In short, I think casino's should be ALLOWED to boot AP's, I just don't think they should actually DO it.

Quote: Face

Personally, if I had a joint, I'd kick out all the falling over barfing drunks, panhandlers, TITO stealers, pants-poopers, dealer abusers, scream-across-the-floor people, and Buffalo area professional sports fans

How did we Buffalo area sports fans warrant your wrath!!! Go Bills. Go Sabres.

Quote: SOOPOO

How did we Buffalo area sports fans warrant your wrath!!! Go Bills. Go Sabres.

LOL, SOOPOO! I'm a lifelong WNY'er. I've been a Dolphins fan since '84 and a Leafs fan since early '90. Needless to say, I've been berated endlessly by your kind since I was barely out of diapers. Once, when I was 8 yrs old and went to what was then Rich Stadium, a Bills fan opened the apron he was wearing, grabbed his 'piece' and told me to 'suck it, fish f***er!'. I guess I have never really gotten over it lol. But really, my comment was mostly in jest. My entire family are Bills/Sabres fans, and I love them dearly. Except for one, he likes the Patriots. I don't talk to that one anymore ;)

Quote: Face

I believe most of your post was corrected by the forum, specifically the difference between a device and your brain, and use of the term 'cheat'. I didn't happen to notice, though, anyone reply about the 'NOT ALLOWED' point. I'm not the most knowledgable, but I don't recall counting as being deemed 'unallowable' and know for a fact it's not illegal. I personally love 'counters', the majority of them fund my paycheck. If not for these people, my salary would be in jeopardy. I love to see them come in as it gives me a jolt of 'atta boy' when I can catch them doing it. And if it were up to me, I'd ban not a one of em (and none have been so far at my place) as not a single one of them have shown the power to take us down. Before the counters here rail me saying they consistently make bucks doing it, and they do it all the time...I'm not talking about YOU lol. Obviously the people here are more aware, more refined than the average Rain-Man watchers or good-with-numbers guy, and I do believe counting can be done successfully. But it's a damn pain in the ass for even brighter than average people, not to mention Joe Sunday. It's one hell of a lot of work and mentally exhausting, and with the thousands of casino's around nowadays, the chances of some super-high rolling, smart as a tack, God of counting coming in and bringing the place to it's knees just isn't very likely, especially in this information age where everyones tracked and taped and sent around the world at a click of the mouse.

But the OP's question was 'should have the right', which implies opinion. That's good, because if it was 'do they have the right' then I wouldn't have had the legal knowledge to comment =P. And as my opinion, I do believe they should. Have the option, that is. I dont think they should actually do it, for the above reasons, but it's my opinion that people should be able to say who can stay and go in their place of business. People may scream discrimination, but if a place wants to shorten their customer base by not allowing group X, and is willing to receive whatever backlash from whatever community that opposes their decision, then more power to them. But most places wouldn't risk their profit margins and be blatantly discriminate. Personally, if I had a joint, I'd kick out all the falling over barfing drunks, panhandlers, TITO stealers, pants-poopers, dealer abusers, scream-across-the-floor people, and Buffalo area professional sports fans I could, and curse you for saying I couldn't. In short, I think casino's should be ALLOWED to boot AP's, I just don't think they should actually DO it.

No problem. The casinos should train their dealers to count or, better, have a device do it for them and simply shuffle the cards if the count gets above 1 or 2. That would increase their advantage over all players. In effect, the dealer decreases the bet to zero when it's in their best interest, whereas the counter increases his bet when it's to his advantage. That OK with everybody?

Quote: Face

I believe most of your post was corrected by the forum, specifically the difference between a device and your brain, and use of the term 'cheat'. I didn't happen to notice, though, anyone reply about the 'NOT ALLOWED' point. I'm not the most knowledgable, but I don't recall counting as being deemed 'unallowable' and know for a fact it's not illegal. I personally love 'counters', the majority of them fund my paycheck. If not for these people, my salary would be in jeopardy. I love to see them come in as it gives me a jolt of 'atta boy' when I can catch them doing it. And if it were up to me, I'd ban not a one of em (and none have been so far at my place) as not a single one of them have shown the power to take us down. Before the counters here rail me saying they consistently make bucks doing it, and they do it all the time...I'm not talking about YOU lol. Obviously the people here are more aware, more refined than the average Rain-Man watchers or good-with-numbers guy, and I do believe counting can be done successfully. But it's a damn pain in the ass for even brighter than average people, not to mention Joe Sunday. It's one hell of a lot of work and mentally exhausting, and with the thousands of casino's around nowadays, the chances of some super-high rolling, smart as a tack, God of counting coming in and bringing the place to it's knees just isn't very likely, especially in this information age where everyones tracked and taped and sent around the world at a click of the mouse.

But the OP's question was 'should have the right', which implies opinion. That's good, because if it was 'do they have the right' then I wouldn't have had the legal knowledge to comment =P. And as my opinion, I do believe they should. Have the option, that is. I dont think they should actually do it, for the above reasons, but it's my opinion that people should be able to say who can stay and go in their place of business. People may scream discrimination, but if a place wants to shorten their customer base by not allowing group X, and is willing to receive whatever backlash from whatever community that opposes their decision, then more power to them. But most places wouldn't risk their profit margins and be blatantly discriminate. Personally, if I had a joint, I'd kick out all the falling over barfing drunks, panhandlers, TITO stealers, pants-poopers, dealer abusers, scream-across-the-floor people, and Buffalo area professional sports fans I could, and curse you for saying I couldn't. In short, I think casino's should be ALLOWED to boot AP's, I just don't think they should actually DO it.

No problem. The casinos should train their dealers to count or, better, have a device do it for them and simply shuffle the cards if the count gets above 1 or 2. That would increase their advantage over all players. In effect, the dealer decreases the bet to zero when it's in their best interest, whereas the counter increases his bet when it's to his advantage. That OK with everybody?

Quote: dm

No problem. The casinos should train their dealers to count or, better, have a device do it for them and simply shuffle the cards if the count gets above 1 or 2. That would increase their advantage over all players. In effect, the dealer decreases the bet to zero when it's in their best interest, whereas the counter increases his bet when it's to his advantage. That OK with everybody?

Hrmm. I think the dealers are too busy with dealing / buy ins / cheque change / etc to be expected to keep a count, and floor personnel are likewise too busy with other tables to do the same, even if supplied with a device to keep track of such a count. Surveillance often keeps a count on both random and suspect tables, but to dedicate a person to do so, or hire an entire department as 'table counters', seems to me to be very cost inefficient.

Also, the casino makes it's money based on two things, the house advantage and plays per hour. It would be quite possible for many shoes / decks to begin with a +1 or +2 true count, and having to shuffle so often might send your customers packing due to boredom and will definately send the hands per hour into freefall. The loss from this over a few days, or even one day, would likely surpass the loss from a counter by a large amount. Also, doing so would GUARANTEE the loss, whereas the counter's threat varies by his skill, bankroll, Lady Luck, and the probability of him even entering that particular casino.

There has been much talk in the industry about shuffle's for this very reason. Many casino's who were faced with financial issues due to the reccession sought advisors for help, and many of them made a significant improvement in their bottom line just by simplifying their shuffle procedures. It's amazing what even one less riffle or strip has done for their take, and most would realize that adding an untold amount of extra shuffles would be devastating so I don't see it ever happening.

I'm confused by your 'bet' scenario, though. Perhaps I'm reading it too literally. Dealers, as I'm sure you know, do not wager in BJ as they do in, say, Pai Gow Poker. So I must admit I'm kind of lost on your explanation. Hope the rest helps, though.

Funny definition of cheating. Seems to imply if I make a good decision I am cheating ??

Quote: dm

No problem. The casinos should train their dealers to count or, better, have a device do it for them and simply shuffle the cards if the count gets above 1 or 2. That would increase their advantage over all players. In effect, the dealer decreases the bet to zero when it's in their best interest, whereas the counter increases his bet when it's to his advantage. That OK with everybody?

I wonder if the dealers would also shuffle the cards when the count gets below -1 or -2? No, the count is just that... no early shuffling because the count is not in the casino's favor. There are plenty (the great majority) of flat betters who can't even count to 21 on a good day. Why take their luck away?

Being banned for being an AP and playing/betting more during +EV situations.

Does not make sense to me !!

Ban a cheat yes, not an AP, there will be plenty of non- AP's to make up for it !! Single deck 6-5 to BJ, roulette, and slots combined HE around 20 %- ouch !!

An AP will only have a very small advantage , a very small % of the time . The players that have a system, think they are an AP, should more than makeup for the few consistent proven AP's .

Quote:

Funny definition of cheating. Seems to imply if I make a good decision I am cheating ??

Or worse, you push a sequence of buttons on a Video-Blackjack game that make you actually win rather than lose.
Couldn't resist that one.

N&B

AP is not cheating!!!!!!!!!!!!! Playing by their rules and casinos wants to kick AP out. They should have a sign at the entrance with the words Only Idiots and Losers allowed.

"perceived" >>> Thats the KEY word. (ROFL)

Ken

I read an article once where there was a European roulette table (one zero, HE 2.70%) and an American roulette table (2 zeroes, HE 5.40%) side by side in a casino and they were both getting equal play. I am still kicking myself for never buying any casino stocks.

Quote: boymimbo

I wonder if the dealers would also shuffle the cards when the count gets below -1 or -2? No, the count is just that... no early shuffling because the count is not in the casino's favor. There are plenty (the great majority) of flat betters who can't even count to 21 on a good day. Why take their luck away?

Casinos don't shuffle up based on count, they shuffle up at the cut card, or after a constant number of hands dealt out on single deck. But they don't need to shuffle up early, they can simply flat-bet or bar any player they want in Nevada.

Floorman says to player, "You must flat bet the same bet amount through every hand, else no action." Floorman says, "You're done for the night on Blackjack, Sir. Go play dice." Floorman says to dealer, "Do not deal to his position." Bang, done.

Casinos can also have a betting range of $5 to $25 dollars, or have 50% penetration, or both.
No Apology.

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