Slot machine 'malfunction'

Another sad case of a gambler hitting a huge jackpot only to be told, "Sorry, machine malfunction."

I wonder what the machine looks like during one of these malfunctions. I mean, if the lights go dark, the reels spin in opposite directions and it lights back up showing a jackpot, then OK. But if the reels spin normally and everything else looks normal, that's pretty frustrating and the casino should consider paying it out anyway. I feel bad for these people who thought they'd hit it big.

I also wonder what's to stop a tribal casino from declaring any big jackpot a malfunction.

The link above didn't work for me, hopefully this one will. I'll refrain from comment without knowing more information.

I edited his post to correct the link while you were typing.

Quote: nyuhoosier

I also wonder what's to stop a tribal casino from declaring any big jackpot a malfunction.

Nothing.
A malfunction is an undefined term. It is a conclusionary statement. In this case, the failure to reset to a default value looks like a programming error. Certainly if there is a power failure or sparks or coffee spilled into the machine's innards, a malfunction is quite believable. However if its a programming failure that would be akin to a layout printed with erroneous payout rates. Its the casino that displayed the layout and has to make good on it. Its the casino that should bear the burden of errors since its the casino that is in full control and the industry relies on casinos being held to their word even if they happened to rely on a bad programmer. A skilled gambler might know such a payout is excessive but the law often holds people to different standards. If you offer credit or collection services, your documentation must be understandable by a person of fairly low education and sophistication even if an experienced borrower in involved. I would think the word "malfunction" requires what an ordinary first-time tourist who has had a few drinks would consider to be a malfunction. He should not be required to read the ultra-fine print or to know the tables of reasonable payouts. The casino supplied the flashing lights and dollar displays and should be held to the reliability of all its systems. If it was indeed a malfunction let them prove it. If it was simply a programming or chip design mistake, then it was NOT a malfunction, just a result that is undesired by the casino. If you get into an elevator and press "3" but taken to "14" due to some errant static signal that is a malfunction, but if everyone who presses 3 gets taken to 14 due to a wiring mistake or signage mistake, that is not a malfunction. The casino controls the elevator and their technician made the mistake. The elevator functioned properly. It should be the same with a slot machine. Stop allowing casinos to recite an unproven litany.

Here is another jackpot case that comes down to the definition of the word "malfunction."

IMO if the game is displaying a jackpot of X dollars & I am playing under that assumption, I would expect to be paid that amount. If I have the winning combination for the jackpot and suddenly the game says I have won 100X, I would be doubtful but would not express my doubt. I most likely would try to make an "advantage play" though as the two examples is this thread seem to have done.

I can understand a judicial hesitancy to award an undeserved windfall to a skilled and knowledgeable gambler, but most people who play slot machines are by definition not skillful gamblers or advantage players. It is the casino that has provided the alcohol and has encouraged a festive atmosphere rather than a wary contract-aware or odds-aware atmosphere. A windfall may hurt the casino but it is the casino that is most able sustain the injury since without holding a casino to its promises all casinos everywhere are injured.

A naive gambler who merely reacts to bells and whistles and flashing digits may not really be injured as much as disappointed after some momentary expectation. We all know the cocktail waitress is provocatively dressed and offers a free drink. No male patron can claim he held any other expectation even if in fact he harbored some fleeting hope. A slot machine however depends upon fleeting hope such as with its near misses and paltry rewards. So when that jackpot sign flashes and klaxons go off, the hope is reasonable albeit perhaps fleeting. It is an event that the casino invited and the casino created.

Unearned windfall? Perhaps. If you own a casino and don't like paying out big bucks for a programmer's error then either hire better programmers or don't own a casino.

Just to play the devils advocate why is a machine or programmer error any different than a dealers error. We have already established on this forum that dealer errors can be reclaimed by the casino if they are caught.

So what do you think should happen when a machine malfunctions and takes a bill or ticket and doesn't issue any credits? I bet most people would expect that malfunction to be corrected. The truth is that virtually all electronic and mechanical devices are subject to failure. Why should only those in the player's favor not be corrected? I've personally paid thousands of dollars in jackpots that were true malfunctions. It becomes a customer service issue, not necessarily a legal one.

What's to stop a Las Vegas casino from declaring any big jackpot a malfunction?

Well...I think the Nevada Gaming Commission would tell you that the law prevents them from doing that. If you file a complaint that a jackpot was won but not paid, the logs from the machine can and should validate (or invalidate) that claim.
I don't know all the rules about what they keep and for how long, but it would surprise me if this has ever happened legitimately. Generally the types of malfunctions I have read about pay millions above what the top prize of the game would ever be and for no reason.
Everybody asks this question or some form of "What's to stop them..." but most casinos don't really care about large, legitimate jackpots going out the door - they like them as it promotes the house as having winners and loose slots or however they want to market it. On the other hand, a penny player winning $11 million on a 20,000 credit top prize machine - well...that one just doesn't make sense as soon as you read it.

I was playing ddb at one of the local Indian casinos here and was dealt AAAA6. I wanted to hold the Aces and try for the kicker ($800 vs. the potential $2000) but to my disbelief the machine automatically held all 5 cards before I had the opportunity to hold even the 1st Ace. Just like they do on dealt royal flushes, which is fine for RF's because you can get no improvement. Note: These machines all lock up whenever a $400 or higher jackpot is hit, more than likely so the floor staff has that many more chances to get tips (ha!)

The Indians made a short story out of my complaint by saying it was I who held those cards, and they wouldn't go look at the tape as I requested a hundred times. One chief even said I probably wouldn't have gotten the kicker anyway, which was brilliant. I got my $800 and was asked to leave to cool down. I called the State Gaming Commission and they said the Indians regulate their own games with State "oversight" whatever that means, and they couldn't overrule anything like that, or even investigate it!

Lesson learned: Never play another hand at any Indian casino anywhere. Who knows what else they do?

Wow I finally agree with Jerry. Unlike in NV there does not seem to be the kind of gaming regulation at NA casinos as there are in Nevada ones. Other than state laws that designate what kind of game there can be, what would happen if I was at Cache Creek and had a dispute over something.


I just had a thought, if it was a class 2 machine (bingo based) those are funky things where your win isnt even based upon what you hold or are given.

Quote: JerryLogan

Lesson learned: Never play another hand at any Indian casino anywhere. Who knows what else they do?

While I am unable to comment on the incident that gave rise to this particular expression of an oft-repeated sentiment, I do want to say that I concur in the general concept. Indian casinos have virtually no oversight. Their so-called Gaming Commissions are mere rubber stamps. Civil liability for assaults on their premises or auto accidents on their premises often means a Tribal Court and only a Tribal Lawyer.

The fact that an Indian casino is close by and does not involve a long line at an airport screening station often tempts people to avoid a trek to Las Vegas. There is however a sacrifice involved. You may not always agree with a Gaming Commission ruling in Nevada but at least it exists and has clout. And if there is an altercation on the premises or some accident in the parking lot, your recourse is to a court of competent jurisdiction with an attorney of your choice and there will be no claims of sovereign immunity or proceedings in only a tribal court.

Does this mean that one should necessarily abandon all Indian casinos? No. It is more meant to be a reminder that when you select an Indian casino you are in fact making certain irrevocable decisions that may indeed have great impact on your enjoyment and your economic well-being.

The casino's ads feature the usual festive atmosphere and allure of winning combined with fun and food. Those ads don't mention that there is no effective gaming commission to come to your defense and no effective redress of grievances in the court system.

Most people who chose an Indian casino enjoy the experience and enjoy the avoidance of a tiresome flight to Vegas. Most people who chose an Indian casino do not regret that choice. Of course most people who choose 6:5 don't know enough to regret that choice either!

I'm not a big player of slot machines or even video poker, but one major reason I would stay away from them at the Indian Casinos (at least here in Arizona) is the simple fact that there is no clear indication on which ones are Class 2 and which ones are Class 3 machines. That distinction is pretty significant, and not knowing which ones are which would make me hesitant to play any machine.

On the other hand, table games seem fairly safe, assuming that the Shuffle Master dealing machines are unbiased. I'm not willing to state that Shuffle Master machines are completely fair, and it's been semi-proven that the Shuffle Master machines definitely do not produce a real shuffle, however, they are the same machines as those being used in Las Vegas, and thus I feel it's safe to say that the experience would be the same. The primary difference would be in payouts, in that the Indian casinos tend to have poorer table game payout tables, but it is similar to what I've seen on the Strip.

As a side note, it would be interesting if we could get anybody on here that knows for a fact how and what kind of oversight is done on Indian casinos. I doubt that will happen, but it's still a hope. Here in Arizona, it is well known that the casinos report to the state their income and expenses twice a year. Each reporting is for one months worth of data, and thus that number is multiplied by 6, and the two reports taken together to represent one year's worth of data. I know of someone who is convinced that because of this, the casinos will loosen their slot machines on those two months in order to make their numbers look significantly smaller.

Another reason to never play a machine.