I need to vent..

As a few people on here may know--if they've paid attention to my posts--is that I'm a dealer. Tuesday night I was nearly seven hours into my shift, coming close to 4 am. Normally, I'm out by 3, but we were slightly busier than normal, and maybe short a dealer or two.

I was dealing the $25 min BJ table, which gets the least action at this property. I have one player over the last hour and fifteen minutes. He's quiet and playing $100/hand. He's playing basic strategy for the most part, but still does some stupid plays. I'm not an extremely quick dealer, but this is by choice. I just don't see the merit it busting my ass shaving a few seconds off each hand. A few minutes before I'm supposed to get tapped off for break, a good song comes on and I get a little extra pep, causing me to deal slightly faster. Then I deal the next hand, he gets hard 13 against my 10, and he stops. The following conversation ensues (heavily paraphrased):

Player: "Does the House pay you?"
Me: "huh?"
"Does the House pay you to deal fast?"
*pause w/ confusion* .. "No"
"The House doesn't pay you to take my money?"
"Oh, just the song came on that I like that gives me a little extra energy."
"OOHH, REALLY. I think you're a fucking liar.
*stares at me*
*I stare at him back*
Player: Are you in a hurry?
Me: No
I think you're a liar. Okay, can I get some water?

From this point on he waits for me to call my floor over, asks for a bottle of water as the cards wait to be played, then gets up and walks off, the cards still on the table. I get tapped, and he finally plays the hand and wins. Mind you, since buying in with me, he was up nearly $2000 when this exchange happened. My blood is boiling, and I'm spouting expletives that would make George Carlin blush as I'm walking to the break room. I'm looking around for something to punch that wouldn't get me in trouble if I broke it. The worse part is, it's 4 am so there's no one in the break room I can vent to to calm my nerves.

I promptly talked to my pit boss after a shortened break and told her the situation and asked to be moved. She obliged and I thanked her. And I was able to get off just fifteen minutes after my scheduled end time instead of an hour like I thought it was gonna be.

Thank you for letting me vent. This guy is now at the top of my shit list.

Always remember and never forget:
People suck.

Quote: ewjones080

This guy is now at the top of my shit list.

NO. YOU are at the top of that list else you wouldn't give yourself such grief over this or any other incident. Just pay attention and don't let the music slow you down.... and don't let the music speed you up either. I'm surprized you still hear the music. Most dealers zone it out.

I am not a dealer. Far from it. Lol. But having worked retail many years ago, I can appreciate the grief that dealers or any person who deals with the public goes through. There are some jackasses out there, plain and simple. But that's the job, and you learn deal with it. I am sure ewjones knows this and HAS learned to deal with it, but every once in a while someone gets to you enough that you want to vent, especially at 3 or 4 am, when hours of alcohol are added to the mix. I respect that, ewjones, along with the job that you do.

What really gets me, is the players in a casino, that get downright angry when they lose their money. Apparently they don't understand the concept of gambling and risk. Lol.

Quote: kewlj

I am not a dealer. Far from it. Lol. But having worked retail many years ago, I can appreciate the grief that dealers or any person who deals with the public goes through. There are some jackasses out there, plain and simple. But that's the job, and you learn deal with it. I am sure ewjones knows this and HAS learned to deal with it, but every once in a while someone gets to you enough that you want to vent, especially at 3 or 4 am, when hours of alcohol are added to the mix. I respect that, ewjones, along with the job that you do.

What really gets me, is the players in a casino, that get downright angry when they lose their money. Apparently they don't understand the concept of gambling and risk. Lol.

There are A LOT of some jackasses out there, plain and simple.

Retail or anything where you have to deal with the public sucks...been there, done that.

Quote: Alan

There are A LOT of some jackasses out there, plain and simple.

Retail or anything where you have to deal with the public sucks...been there, done that.

The thought of getting stuck working at walmart has motivated me quite a bit.

Here's the question -- were you dealing so fast the player was having difficulty adding up the hands?

When I play blackjack, I prefer the fastest dealer possible, so no knock against faster dealers. But if a player is heads up at a table and the game is moving too fast for him, part of good customer service is recognizing that and slowing down. You are in the customer service business.

"Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die" - attributed to Buddha but more likely AA

I played on some bj tables and told some players that I am getting paid by the casino to play on the table because the players are winning. I only do this on tables where there are jerks. For what it is worth, I had dealers that gave me an evil eye because I was not tipping. I had several thousands in front of me but i was still down. The dealers act like they are giving me winners.

Should they deal fast, I slow them down by betting multiple color chips. I have red, green, white, and sometimes pink chips. Dealers have to break the chips down to pay me and have to wait till I stack the chips back before they deal again.

It goes both ways, players and dealers, the only difference is that dealers get fired for stepping out of line and players lose money playing in casino.

Quote: sodawater

Here's the question -- were you dealing so fast the player was having difficulty adding up the hands?

When I play blackjack, I prefer the fastest dealer possible, so no knock against faster dealers. But if a player is heads up at a table and the game is moving too fast for him, part of good customer service is recognizing that and slowing down. You are in the customer service business.

I don't care how fast the dealer deals. I'm going to take as long as I want to make a decision. If a dealer scoops his own hand before I'm finished adding it up, I'll ask him to wait. If he already put it into the discards, I'll ask him to pull it back. I control the pace of the game, not the dealer.

If a dealer deals too slowly, that's another issue. I can't really speed the dealer up. Often, slow dealers are clumsy and make mistakes, so this is not necessarily a bad thing for me. Occasionally you will get a dealer who is very slow because they are being very careful -- they don't make mistakes, but they take way too long. In this case there is not much I can do. Maybe I should switch to a more complicated count with more side-counts to keep myself occupied while the dealer tries to figure out what 6+5+6 is. :)

The one thing that I hate is dealers who give me advice about how to play my hands. Of course I ignore them and do what I want, but it's really, really annoying.

Quote: Alan

Retail or anything where you have to deal with the public sucks...been there, done that.

Oh, it's not just the public. But when dealing with the public there are many more chances of encountering such kinds of people.

Dealers and teachers (and anyone who deals with large numbers of people) will face this situation. You have a class or you are dealing for eight hours to many people and things are going just fine. Then one jerk causes you problems. You don't go home and think, "Gee, I dealt to or taught so many wonderful people today." Instead you think, "That bastard." And it ruins your day and perhaps your sleep.

And that is the human condition.

Writers face this too. If you have a strong number of reviews, all of them good, and one creep gives you a bad review, you remember that one. Early on when I was a teacher, an actor, and a writer I would get annoyed at anything bad said about me. Now, I just concentrate on the good stuff. Give you a recent example. I am being savaged by Hightower over on his site. Typical attacks; I'm a writer, not a player. I don't have an edge because he doesn't have an edge and it can't be done. Somewhat nasty. Doesn't bother me now because today I got six emails telling me how much the readers enjoyed my books and articles. I now concentrate on those six and I will concentrate on whatever good reviews or emails I get tomorrow. Even when some of my competitors write bad reviews on Amazon I just smirk and read the good reviews and think of them instead of the bastards. Same goes for web sites where some readers write silly stuff.

It did take me time to get into this state but it feels a lot better than taking jerks seriously.

And by the way, I think that player was a shithead.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I don't care how fast the dealer deals. I'm going to take as long as I want to make a decision. If a dealer scoops his own hand before I'm finished adding it up, I'll ask him to wait. If he already put it into the discards, I'll ask him to pull it back. I control the pace of the game, not the dealer.

If a dealer deals too slowly, that's another issue. I can't really speed the dealer up. Often, slow dealers are clumsy and make mistakes, so this is not necessarily a bad thing for me. Occasionally you will get a dealer who is very slow because they are being very careful -- they don't make mistakes, but they take way too long. In this case there is not much I can do. Maybe I should switch to a more complicated count with more side-counts to keep myself occupied while the dealer tries to figure out what 6+5+6 is. :)

The one thing that I hate is dealers who give me advice about how to play my hands. Of course I ignore them and do what I want, but it's really, really annoying.

Actually I control the pace. Well that's what our pit bosses tell us. Especially on craps. I feel I have a perfectly adequate pace, perfect for any player. I'm not so fast you can barely count your cards before I scoop em up. Not so slow its boring or where ill make mistakes.

I'll never give people advice. Unless they ask. And then I'm just telling them basic strategy.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

The dealers act like they are giving me winners.

Poker dealers are notorious for this. They can deal a player five bad beats in a row, I mean like 3-outers on the river for $500 pots, and if that player says a word about it, they will say "don't blame me, blame the shuffle machine" or (in the days before shuffle machines) "I don't control the cards." Then if that same player, who is now stuck $2000, gets dealt a winning hand, and doesn't tip, the dealer will act like the winning hand was delivered by the dealer's kindness alone.

It can't be both ways. If dealers don't want to hear complaints about bad beats, they shouldn't expect a tip from every winning hand, especially if a player is stuck four racks.

In my opinion, players who complain about bad beats are idiotic. Do they really think the dealers have any control over which cards get dealt?

By that same token, I never complain about which cards are dealt, but I also never tip when stuck.

When winning, I used to tip $1 to $3 depending on the size of the pot. Now it is $1 and only if the pot was large. Tipping is a huge expense for poker players, and I say let the suckers pay the tips. I can't afford to give $2 every time I win a hand.

Quote: ewjones080

Actually I control the pace.

You and your bosses can believe that all you want. I will take as long as I want to make my decisions, and I won't be rushed.

You have to wait for me to make a hand signal, and I'll make that hand signal when I'm good and ready. So, I'm controlling the pace.

Quote: ewjones080

I feel I have a perfectly adequate pace, perfect for any player.

Well, this is your problem. No pace can be perfect for any player. Part of the customer service of being a table games dealer is giving the players a good experience. Especially if you are heads up with a player, you should adjust your pace based on his feedback.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

You and your bosses can believe that all you want. I will take as long as I want to make my decisions, and I won't be rushed.

You have to wait for me to make a hand signal, and I'll make that hand signal when I'm good and ready. So, I'm controlling the pace.

Sure. I'm not all Gustapo on game pace. But we truly do control on dice. If you're taking too long to shoot, we pass the dice. When we send the dice to another shooter, better have your bets in, otherwise too bad.

Besides taking forever or multiple color betting to slow down, which undoubtedly pisses off your dealer, just sit out the last half of a shoe. There's a couple players that do this, and I appreciate that.

Quote: ewjones080

Sure. I'm not all Gustapo on game pace. But we truly do control on dice. If you're taking too long to shoot, we pass the dice. When we send the dice to another shooter, better have your bets in, otherwise too bad.

Besides taking forever or multiple color betting to slow down, which undoubtedly pisses off your dealer, just sit out the last half of a shoe. There's a couple players that do this, and I appreciate that.

I agree with you on late bets. But I've never once seen the dice passed because a shooter was taking too long. I'm guessing that attempting to do this would slow down the game more than speed it up (because you will have to deal with the arguments, someone will ask for a ruling, etc, etc)

Quote: ewjones080

Actually I control the pace. Well that's what our pit bosses tell us. Especially on craps. I feel I have a perfectly adequate pace, perfect for any player. I'm not so fast you can barely count your cards before I scoop em up. Not so slow its boring or where ill make mistakes.

I'll never give people advice. Unless they ask. And then I'm just telling them basic strategy.

This is an interesting dynamic. I have heard a dealer is rated on how quickly they deal a game, and obviously, some dealers are way faster than others.
OTOH, the dealer can't take action until the player has made their decisions, in some games, like BJ. In craps, a dealer can run over the players, by "No Betting" them.
But I think the really successful dealers strive to hit the speed that the majority of the players (or the biggest tipper) at the table wish to play at.

When I am playing craps solo, I ask the stick to not play with the dice. Just rake them in, and pass them to me. I could not care less if the dice show a 7, or a craps, or any number. I just want them back in my hand. Now, once other players show up, I know that many other players will pitch a bitch if the stick pushed a 7 or craps to the shooter, so when people join, I let the stick do their pace.
Only one time did I have a stick repeatedly not comply with my request to not mess with the dice. After the 4th time, I just quit playing. He was rotating out in 5 minutes, so I just waited him out. Not worth arguing over, but as a solo player, I wanted to play the game my way, and I was tipping plenty. The next stick had no issue giving me the dice the way I wanted.

The only time I saw a deviation from this was I joined two ladies playing craps one night. One lady at each end of the table. I stepped up and the one lady sort of frowned and said, "we like to play fast". I said that is my style of game, and man was it fast. There was barley time to press a place bet. These 2 ladies were locals, and the dealers were accommodating. Most of my presses were call bets. I was getting paid as the dice were in the air.
No time for horn shit or hardways or hops. We were having quite a bit of fun.
There were a couple of other open spots at other tables, so there were plenty of options on where to play. Another gent showed up at the game, saw the pace, and still bought into the game. But he wanted to play a regular pace, and after getting no bet a few times, he complained about the pace of play. The box politely told him that he saw the pace of play before he bought in, and there were spots available at other tables where he may find a game more to his liking. The guy got pissed and moved to another table.
That was the first time I had seen a craps crew keep a super fast game going. The speed was really beyond reasonable. If the girl on my end of the table had been doing anything more than her PL bet, the dealer would have not been able to pay both of us in time.

So, it is my opinion that the speed of the game is a combination of the players and the dealer. The game will settle into a rhythm that everyone is mostly comfortable with. If not, unless the casino is packed, I expect the player who is not happy will just seek a new table to play at.

I have always wondered if a dealer who is being slowed down by a player ever gets grief for a low number of hands per hour? If they do, and to avoid grief, they continue to deal so fast that the player leaves, how does the casino rectify that situation? Instead of low hands per hour, they end up with NO hands per hour.

Quote: ewjones080

Sure. I'm not all Gustapo on game pace. But we truly do control on dice. If you're taking too long to shoot, we pass the dice. When we send the dice to another shooter, better have your bets in, otherwise too bad.

Besides taking forever or multiple color betting to slow down, which undoubtedly pisses off your dealer, just sit out the last half of a shoe. There's a couple players that do this, and I appreciate that.

You're kidding, right?

Quote: Sabretom2

You're kidding, right?

Yeah, I thought this too. It's like we are speaking completely different languages.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Always remember and never forget:
People suck.

Truer words have never been written. Except maybe "people are idiots."

Quote: ewjones080

And then I'm just telling them basic strategy.

I'm actually curious about this. Do you really give correct basic strategy advice?

I've seen dealers that know a somewhat reasonable approximation, but I've never seen one that actually knows basic strategy. For example, I've never seen a dealer advise a player to hit a 12 against a 3. On the other hand, I've had a dealer ask if I'm sure when I ask for a hit in that spot. When I say yes, he points to his up card. I appreciate that he is just trying to help, but come on...

Also, I've never seen a dealer give correct advice on soft totals. The advice on soft 18 is particularly bad -- most advise to always stand on that, instead of hitting or doubling at the correct times. I've even had dealers skip me over (not even waiting for a hand signal!) when I had a soft 18 and wanted to hit or double it.

Pair splitting is also something that I've never seen a dealer get right. Most seem to know that you should always split As and 8s, and never 5s or 10s. Everything beyond that point is an adventure.

I have also had a dealer literally try to force me to take even money on a blackjack when there was an ace showing. As in, I said "no", and he slid me the chips anyway.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

.

I have also had a dealer literally try to force me to take even money on a blackjack when there was an ace showing. As in, I said "no", and he slid me the chips anyway.

When that happens, lock up the money by putting it in your pocket, say "Thanks for the tokes," and then ask for 3:2 on your natural if he doesn't have a BJ.

Quote: ewjones080

We truly do control on dice. If you're taking too long to shoot, we pass the dice. When we send the dice to another shooter, better have your bets in, otherwise too bad.

Presumably you're referring to being on the stick. As a don't bettor who usually stands next to a base dealer, I've been rushed quite a bit more than once to the extent that not all my bets (including odds) were accepted before the dice were in the shooter's hands.
The manic drive for the M.B.A.'s magical 60 rolls an hour (or whatever figure the expert is using to win his bonus) can end up costing the house. Laying unconventional odds definitely slows down even many experienced dealers on both acceptances and payoffs. Stuff that, Mr. Efficiency Manager.

Quote: sodawater

When that happens, lock up the money by putting it in your pocket, say "Thanks for the tokes," and then ask for 3:2 on your natural if he doesn't have a BJ.

Yeah unfortunately they take your cards when they pay you.

that's why they have cameras!

Quote: ewjones080

As a few people on here may know--if they've paid attention to my posts--is that I'm a dealer. Tuesday night I was nearly seven hours into my shift, coming close to 4 am. Normally, I'm out by 3, but we were slightly busier than normal, and maybe short a dealer or two.

I was dealing the $25 min BJ table, which gets the least action at this property. I have one player over the last hour and fifteen minutes. He's quiet and playing $100/hand. He's playing basic strategy for the most part, but still does some stupid plays. I'm not an extremely quick dealer, but this is by choice. I just don't see the merit it busting my ass shaving a few seconds off each hand. A few minutes before I'm supposed to get tapped off for break, a good song comes on and I get a little extra pep, causing me to deal slightly faster. Then I deal the next hand, he gets hard 13 against my 10, and he stops. The following conversation ensues (heavily paraphrased):

Player: "Does the House pay you?"
Me: "huh?"
"Does the House pay you to deal fast?"
*pause w/ confusion* .. "No"
"The House doesn't pay you to take my money?"
"Oh, just the song came on that I like that gives me a little extra energy."
"OOHH, REALLY. I think you're a fucking liar.
*stares at me*
*I stare at him back*
Player: Are you in a hurry?
Me: No
I think you're a liar. Okay, can I get some water?

From this point on he waits for me to call my floor over, asks for a bottle of water as the cards wait to be played, then gets up and walks off, the cards still on the table. I get tapped, and he finally plays the hand and wins. Mind you, since buying in with me, he was up nearly $2000 when this exchange happened. My blood is boiling, and I'm spouting expletives that would make George Carlin blush as I'm walking to the break room. I'm looking around for something to punch that wouldn't get me in trouble if I broke it. The worse part is, it's 4 am so there's no one in the break room I can vent to to calm my nerves.

I promptly talked to my pit boss after a shortened break and told her the situation and asked to be moved. She obliged and I thanked her. And I was able to get off just fifteen minutes after my scheduled end time instead of an hour like I thought it was gonna be.

Thank you for letting me vent. This guy is now at the top of my shit list.

ewjones080,
I see both sides of this.
I see where the player is not tipping.
What could you have done to change this?
If you got excited for him a few times instead of concentrating on the music maybe he would have tipped,or maybe not.
The player has a choice of what speed to play,what to tip,how to talk to you,etc.etc.etc.
The player is the king and you are meerly his subject.
Also,don't let one clown face ruin your whole night.
They don't have control of your life.
Maybe you say they do if they don't tip you.
If this is the case then do something to change the players perception of you.

No hard feelings though.
Turn the fleas into Georges

KB1

Quote: Sabretom2

You're kidding, right?

About what exactly? No I don't really care about BJ pace. I've never seen the dice passed cause the shooter takes too long, but it's a possibility. I have seen "no bet" for late bettors. This has happened primarily with copy-cat prop bettors that don't know what they're doing, but just want action and take nearly a minute to make their 12 different bets.

To say someone should sit half a shoe if the game is too fast I understand sounds extreme and not likely to happen. But if you're a multi-color bettor, but nice and tipping at least occasionally, I won't mind. Yeah you're making my job harder than it needs to be, but whatever.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I'm actually curious about this. Do you really give correct basic strategy advice?

I've seen dealers that know a somewhat reasonable approximation, but I've never seen one that actually knows basic strategy. For example, I've never seen a dealer advise a player to hit a 12 against a 3. On the other hand, I've had a dealer ask if I'm sure when I ask for a hit in that spot. When I say yes, he points to his up card. I appreciate that he is just trying to help, but come on...

Also, I've never seen a dealer give correct advice on soft totals. The advice on soft 18 is particularly bad -- most advise to always stand on that, instead of hitting or doubling at the correct times. I've even had dealers skip me over (not even waiting for a hand signal!) when I had a soft 18 and wanted to hit or double it.

Pair splitting is also something that I've never seen a dealer get right. Most seem to know that you should always split As and 8s, and never 5s or 10s. Everything beyond that point is an adventure.

I have also had a dealer literally try to force me to take even money on a blackjack when there was an ace showing. As in, I said "no", and he slid me the chips anyway.

Absolutely. I know about 80% of basic strategy. Not sure on soft totals and splits, but if I don't know, I say I'm not sure. I might say, "It seems good." But with the hint of uncertainty. Dealers aren't much different from average stupid bettors. They just echo what they've heard from the players. Every time someone takes even money, I think to myself, "what a moron." I'll never ask if they want even money. And I cringe when the other players advise a new player to take even money.

And I really hate when a player yells "Even money!" On someone else's BJ!!

My absolute favorite is when the dealer has a small card showing, everyone stands, and then the dealer makes a hand, an comments that if no one takes a hit she always seems to make a hand. (Players believe this too, of course). I am absolutely fascinated by this superstition. I have no idea where it came from.

The only thing that I can think of is that people think that the dealer is "supposed" to bust with a small card, even though the dealer busts <50% of the time with any card showing. So, when they see the dealer make a hand more often than not, they need to explain it somehow.

Gambling is great for this sort of thing. It's really amazing how bad the human brain is at dealing with randomness.

I've always wanted to create a superstition and see how long it takes to catch on.

Quote: FrankScoblete

Dealers and teachers (and anyone who deals with large numbers of people) will face this situation. You have a class or you are dealing for eight hours to many people and things are going just fine. Then one jerk causes you problems. You don't go home and think, "Gee, I dealt to or taught so many wonderful people today." Instead you think, "That bastard." And it ruins your day and perhaps your sleep.

And that is the human condition.

I've actually finished shifts of dealing thinking "wow, that was a good night- the people were saints, made it a nice night." I noticed it, as you do notice people in dealing and in retail. I remember a lot of the great people I've dealt to as well as the bad. And yeah, the creeps are more noticeable than saints, but yes, you CAN notice the good people too, and appreciate it.

It's very different in an office environment because you're generally stuck with the same co-workers and bosses; a good work environment is often being part of a good cohesive team. Getting a dick as a boss who has it in for you is a no-win situation, you can be really be caught in a bad place, really trapped, like a bad marriage. Same with a bad class as a teacher. With people we are played the hand we're dealt, and often misplay it. People are like hands dealt, a lot of them are losers.

Quote: ewjones080

And I really hate when a player yells "Even money!" On someone else's BJ!!]

If someone yelled "even money" while I was getting a BJ I would politely ask them why they were in my bedroom??!?!??! :)

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I'm actually curious about this. Do you really give correct basic strategy advice?

I've seen dealers that know a somewhat reasonable approximation, but I've never seen one that actually knows basic strategy. For example, I've never seen a dealer advise a player to hit a 12 against a 3. On the other hand, I've had a dealer ask if I'm sure when I ask for a hit in that spot. When I say yes, he points to his up card. I appreciate that he is just trying to help, but come on...

Also, I've never seen a dealer give correct advice on soft totals. The advice on soft 18 is particularly bad -- most advise to always stand on that, instead of hitting or doubling at the correct times. I've even had dealers skip me over (not even waiting for a hand signal!) when I had a soft 18 and wanted to hit or double it.

Pair splitting is also something that I've never seen a dealer get right. Most seem to know that you should always split As and 8s, and never 5s or 10s. Everything beyond that point is an adventure.

I have also had a dealer literally try to force me to take even money on a blackjack when there was an ace showing. As in, I said "no", and he slid me the chips anyway.

I don't give advice to players (I'm their dealer, not their daddy or their coach,) but even I know that soft 18 is usually to be hit or doubled (only against a 7 or 8 do you stand on a two-card soft 18; double anything smaller and hit anything larger. No point in standing on a loser, and milk a bust card for all it's worth.)

But let's just establish that dealers should always wait for signals (even if it's subtle and you have to force it as a CYA measure.) And I NEVER give even money unless requested, even though probably 90+% of players at my casino request it. And yet very few take insurance despite it being the same odds.

Quote: hwccdealer

(only against a 7 or 8 do you stand on a two-card soft 18; double anything smaller and hit anything larger. No point in standing on a loser, and milk a bust card for all it's worth.)

Depends on the game, I guess. I generally don't play games that bad.

Quote: hwccdealer

only against a 7 or 8 do you stand on a two-card soft 18; double anything smaller and hit anything larger. No point in standing on a loser, and milk a bust card for all it's worth

Careful Hw, BS is rule dependent.

Quote: Tomspur

If someone yelled "even money" while I was getting a BJ

I learned early on that folks here did not laugh at BJ double-entendre jokes. Just too old of a wisecrack I think.

Quote: hwccdealer

I don't give advice to players (I'm their dealer, not their daddy or their coach,) but even I know that soft 18 is usually to be hit or doubled (only against a 7 or 8 do you stand on a two-card soft 18; double anything smaller and hit anything larger. No point in standing on a loser, and milk a bust card for all it's worth.)

Quote: odiousgambit

Careful Hw, BS is rule dependent.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Depends on the game, I guess. I generally don't play games that bad.

So you only play S17 games, ever? The only thing missing from hwccdealer's scenario is that at a S17 table, you do actually stand on a soft 18 against a 2 (on H17 you double, just like on 3-6). I mean, he said "usually."

Quote: AcesAndEights

So you only play S17 games, ever? The only thing missing from hwccdealer's scenario is that at a S17 table, you do actually stand on a soft 18 against a 2 (on H17 you double, just like on 3-6). I mean, he said "usually."

I haven't played a H17 game in a LONG time. Years. So long that I had to check on WoO's basic strategy calculator to make sure that that really was a difference before making the post (ie, I don't actually remember H17 strategy).

I think that the last H17 game I played was actually single deck, which has a strategy all its own, and didn't allow soft doubling anyway. This was at El Cortez, maybe 2.5 years ago? I don't remember exactly how long. It was just for a few hours. No clue about the last H17 game before that.

I do play blackjack switch occasionally (which is H17), but that already has a different strategy due to push-22.

Quote: odiousgambit

Careful Hw, BS is rule dependent.

True, but at my casino, it's 8 decks, H17, DAS, no RSA, no surrender, dealer peeks. So I know BS for what I am most familiar with.

However, I am planning a trip in a few months to Pittsburgh, and BJ rules there are pretty favorable (S17, DAS, no RSA, late surrender, dealer peeks - shoe game, of course.) The only change on soft 18 from what I described is that you waive it off against a 2; other than that, what I described is accurate.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I haven't played a H17 game in a LONG time. Years. So long that I had to check on WoO's basic strategy calculator to make sure that that really was a difference before making the post (ie, I don't actually remember H17 strategy).

I think that the last H17 game I played was actually single deck, which has a strategy all its own, and didn't allow soft doubling anyway. This was at El Cortez, maybe 2.5 years ago? I don't remember exactly how long. It was just for a few hours. No clue about the last H17 game before that.

I do play blackjack switch occasionally (which is H17), but that already has a different strategy due to push-22.

Damn you're lucky.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Damn you're lucky.

S17 games are the norm at higher stakes in Vegas.

The local game I play is 6 deck, 3:2, S17, DAS, DOA, RSA. No surrender though. I consider these to be very fair rules. The casino still makes their money, of course... the locals play terribly. I'll bet that if they offered surrender and advertised it, they'd make even more.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

S17 games are the norm at higher stakes in Vegas.

I am well aware; I get down as much action at those tables as I can when I'm in Vegas.

Quote:

The local game I play is 6 deck, 3:2, S17, DAS, DOA, RSA. No surrender though. I consider these to be very fair rules. The casino still makes their money, of course... the locals play terribly. I'll bet that if they offered surrender and advertised it, they'd make even more.

This is the part where I'm saying your lucky. I have never seen a S17 game in my home state and I suspect one doesn't exist. It's possible that I've just never seen it, but H17 is the norm, regardless of stakes. Occasionally you'll find late surrender on a game.