TIP WHO ?

My dad drove a cab and fed us kids on tips. I usually over-tip. But I hate playing at a casino where dealers share tips. Means I am tipping the grouchy jerk as well as the nice realer.
Looks like I will never play at Wynns.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada-supreme-court-says-tip-sharing-permitted,

Why would I ever want to tip a supervisor ?

site down

DAMN.

My thoughts: If they choose to band together and share tips with all the the jerks, they deserve exactly what the jerks get as well...

Here's the story at the Miami Herald

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/31/3723566/nevada-court-says-tip-sharing.html

Thanks. My computer illiteracy has surfaced again.

Quote: Buzzard

My dad drove a cab and fed us kids on tips. I usually over-tip. But I hate playing at a casino where dealers share tips. Means I am tipping the grouchy jerk as well as the nice realer.
Looks like I will never play at Wynns.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada-supreme-court-says-tip-sharing-permitted,

Why would I ever want to tip a supervisor ?

Supervisors at my casino are pretty awesome. That said, tipping supervisors is silly. (I'm actually doing a research paper for law school that's partially over the Wynn issue...last I checked, the NV appeals court shot the arrangement down but didn't issue an injunction, and the state Supreme Court has yet to rule.)

Tip sharing is actually pretty necessary, especially for the awesome dealer stuck on a game that generates little in the way of toke revenue, like roulette. At my casino, blackjack and baccarat make the tokes, but the skilled dealers work roulette and craps as well as those games. In addition, those of us on grave shift who slog through our hours on little sleep and entertain people getting out of late-night jobs and the pre-work crowd, generate fewer tips due to lesser crowds, so a lack of toke-sharing would screw us.

A mandatory tip-sharing policy at Wynn casinos on the Las Vegas Strip is legal, the Nevada Supreme Court ruled Thursday in a unanimous decision, reversing a lower court that said employees can't be forced to pool their tips with supervisors.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/10/31/3723566/nevada-court-says-tip-sharing.html#storylink=cpy

What next, share your tips with the table games manager, security, casino manager. But people will play and tip at Wynns just the same.

Quote: Buzzard

What next, share your tips with the table games manager, security, casino manager. But people will play and tip at Wynns just the same.

I was surprised to find out that at some of the card clubs here in Los Angeles, the dealers share their tips with "non tipped employees" and this is mandatory.

There is a tremendous difference between tip pooling and tip sharing.
Involuntary tip pooling is accepted. Yes it helps carry some dead wood and everyone things they pull in all the tip money and others are nothing but deadwood.

Tip sharing is a bit more difficult. We expect tip money to be given to the cocktail waitress but shared with the bartender and the barback on some arbitrary percentage since no one ever tips a bar back directly and few if any tip the bartender particularly if he is at the high-volume service bar area. Waitresses often have to share tip money with bus boys and perhaps even a dish washer.

The problem arises with sharing to adjust disjunctive inequities in the market place: dealers make tip money and want to stay as dealers but Floor Personnel get "promoted" to poverty particularly if Wynn simply refuses to pay them more. So it becomes TAKE the money from those who are historically tipped and GIVE it to the first line managers who historically were not tipped so the boss can give the first line managers raises with what has historically been someone else's money.

Query as to how the law should ever be deemed to lock employers into only that which has historically been accepted and some how make innovation and experimentation, even for selfish reasons an unlawful imposition on the tip receivers.

I think it is WRONG to make the Box or the Floor a recipient of tips, but it should not be illegal. I think Wynn was selfish and very unwise in the manner in which he introduced the changes, but I see no reason to deem it unlawful simply because historically we don't tip the Floor Men at all much less do it with someone else's money.

Some countries such as Nigeria have a tip everyone policy where tip is anything from tip to bribe.
Vegas may soon become much like Nigeria: ask where Starbucks is... and tip who ever it was who gave you directions. Go for the free lessons and tip the instructor, get the free key chain and tip the darned clerk for it. At some points it simply gets ridiculous.

Quote: FleaStiff

ask where Starbucks is... and tip who ever it was who gave you directions. Go for the free lessons and tip the instructor, get the free key chain and tip the darned clerk for it. At some points it simply gets ridiculous.

Isn't it pretty much there already...?

Quote: FleaStiff

The problem arises with sharing to adjust disjunctive inequities in the market place: dealers make tip money and want to stay as dealers but Floor Personnel get "promoted" to poverty particularly if Wynn simply refuses to pay them more. So it becomes TAKE the money from those who are historically tipped and GIVE it to the first line managers who historically were not tipped so the boss can give the first line managers raises with what has historically been someone else's money.

During my last trip to Tunica, I stayed at Harrah's and was privy to an interesting conversation that occurred at one of the tables at which I played.

One of the other players on the table was a dealer from Biloxi on vacation.
The Harrah's dealer made a mistake, and the supervisor came over to make the appropriate correction.
The Biloxi dealer made a comment on the differences between casino procedures, and this opened a conversation that eventually lead to tips.
The Biloxi dealer proudly stated that their "toke rate" was consistently between $30-40 per hour, and that at her casino there was a minimum two-year waiting list to become a dealer. (One must first become a supervisor and "do their time" before becoming a dealer.)
The Tunica dealer became very interested upon hearing this, and asked what the supervisors made. The Biloxi dealer said she wasn't sure exactly, but she guessed somewhere close to $20/hr was the starting pay for their supervisors.

I do not know the exact casino to which the girl was referring, and I do not know if tips are shared with supervisors at that casino.
What I do know is that no business is going to double the salary/hourly wage of a position, and that business will not retain those individuals taking the responsibility of a "boss" position for very long at that pay scale.

Quote: rob45

The Biloxi dealer proudly stated that their "toke rate" was consistently between $30-40 per hour

I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for saying this, but no dealer is worth $40/hr. That's almost 2x the median salary in America. Lots of small business owners make less than that, and they actually serve a more useful purpose in society.

Quote: hwccdealer

Tip sharing is actually pretty necessary, especially for the awesome dealer stuck on a game that generates little in the way of toke revenue, like roulette. At my casino, blackjack and baccarat make the tokes, but the skilled dealers work roulette and craps as well as those games. In addition, those of us on grave shift who slog through our hours on little sleep and entertain people getting out of late-night jobs and the pre-work crowd, generate fewer tips due to lesser crowds, so a lack of toke-sharing would screw us.

This is totally true. Put your best dealers on the dead high-limit table to handle the trade that does show up and they starve and leave. I still say make a 50% "tip tax" and chop that, best of both worlds.

Ironically, one Pit Boss I talked to said they used a 24 hour chop because otherwise the graveyard dealers would clean up there. Said there were so few to chop with they cleaned up based on the first few hours of the shift being good.

Go for your own does mean not knowing if it is chicken or feathers for dinner.

Quote: Beethoven9th

I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for saying this, but no dealer is worth $40/hr. That's almost 2x the median salary in America. Lots of small business owners make less than that, and they actually serve a more useful purpose in society.

That's how I see it.
Of course, it's entirely possible that the girl was simply full of it and blowing smoke to the other dealer.
I don't know enough about MS gaming laws to know if the dealers are allowed to even play within their state (most allow it, but some don't).
At any rate, she seemed to know enough to appear credible to the other dealer. The other dealer was only concerned with the "money side" of the discussion.

Quote: rob45

That's how I see it.
Of course, it's entirely possible that the girl was simply full of it and blowing smoke to the other dealer.
I don't know enough about MS gaming laws to know if the dealers are allowed to even play within their state (most allow it, but some don't).
At any rate, she seemed to know enough to appear credible to the other dealer. The other dealer was only concerned with the "money side" of the discussion.

If she works at one of the better casinos in Biloxi (ie. Beau Rivage), $30 to $40 an hour is very believable on swing shift. There are many dealers at Wynn in Las Vegas that make over $100k a year.

Quote: AZDuffman

This is totally true. Put your best dealers on the dead high-limit table to handle the trade that does show up and they starve and leave. I still say make a 50% "tip tax" and chop that, best of both worlds.

Ironically, one Pit Boss I talked to said they used a 24 hour chop because otherwise the graveyard dealers would clean up there. Said there were so few to chop with they cleaned up based on the first few hours of the shift being good.

Go for your own does mean not knowing if it is chicken or feathers for dinner.

When i worked at a casino in arizona the graveyard shift definitely made more than the day shift

Quote: DRich

There are many dealers at Wynn in Las Vegas that make over $100k a year.

I've heard the exact same thing. Getting paid $100,000 per year for dealing cards & having a sh*tty attitude at the Wynn. Can't beat that!

I've been a dealer for almost 40 years and i never thought dealers were worth 40 bucks an hr either.....but look at some professions, is anybody worth the money they get?????

p.s I met a guy once who made 3 to 4 hundred bucks a day as a beggar who held the door open for customers going in and out of a book shop.

Quote: ontariodealer

I've been a dealer for almost 40 years and i never thought dealers were worth 40 bucks an hr either

Then you sound like one of the good dealers...the type I like to play with. I'd probably tip you a lot (unlike those Wynn idiots).

Quote: ontariodealer

but look at some professions, is anybody worth the money they get?????

Yeah, workers who whine about the minimum wage not being high enough. lol

Quote: Beethoven9th

I've heard the exact same thing. Getting paid $100,000 per year for dealing cards & having a sh*tty attitude at the Wynn. Can't beat that!

Hey, if the market will bear it, then that's the wages :)

Quote: thecesspit

Hey, if the market will bear it, then that's the wages :)

Oh, I definitely agree. I'd strongly oppose any effort by the government to step in and control wages/earnings. I just think that these dealers earn way too much (which isn't their fault) and that they have sh*tty attitudes and don't appreciate the players who enable them to get paid so much. But oh well, I'll just do my part by not playing there...

Quote: thecesspit

Hey, if the market will bear it, then that's the wages :)

This is true, though I don't want my employer mucking with my tokes, which some of the dealers here have strong suspicions is happening. The experienced dealers here at Hollywood Columbus complain (not in front of players but plenty on dead games) that they were promised the world to come to Columbus and the management hasn't delivered.

I suppose that's fair, but from my standpoint, I compare my experience at Hollywood with my previous job - taking calls from deadbeats at Discover for roughly half what I make now. And I deal a flipping game. The hours are insane, but that's life. I make $40K a year and I'm damn glad to have it and grateful for tokes. Do I want to make more? Who the hell doesn't? But I'll go through the proper channels to get it.

If you don't like a dealer's attitude, don't tip them. But if they're good, give them some love. I play pretty small when I do play (I've never met a $5 table I didn't like) but I bet for the dealers and I tip when I win. I tipped a reasonable amount in Vegas because the dealers were great, for the most part. But I didn't tip much in PR because the dealers down there were surly as hell.

We were just in Vegas, and stayed at The Wynn. The pit personnel at Wynn/Encore were far, far friendlier and more engaging than they were at other casinos. I'm not sure I consider that a value-added feature, but it was something I remarked on to Mrs when we were there.

And I don't remember any bad attitudes. In fact, I found the dealers at the Wynn very professional: accurate, reasonably quick (ie, not TOO quick), and pleasant, and engaging when it wasn't too crowded.

Quote: hwccdealer

I suppose that's fair, but from my standpoint, I compare my experience at Hollywood with my previous job - taking calls from deadbeats at Discover for roughly half what I make now.

Isn't that something? I used to acquire those dead beats for Discover that you would talk to shortly thereafter, and then I supervised/trained the people who acquired those dead beats!

Mission, what did I tell you about your strong arm tactics ?

In September 2012, Discover was ordered to pay over $200 million in fines and customer reimbursements to settle accusations by U.S. federal regulators that it had engaged in deceptive telemarketing tactics

Quote: Buzzard

Mission, what did I tell you about your strong arm tactics ?

In September 2012, Discover was ordered to pay over $200 million in fines and customer reimbursements to settle accusations by U.S. federal regulators that it had engaged in deceptive telemarketing tactics

Here's a good article:

http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/24/pf/discover-penalty-telemarketing/

And a quote:

Quote:

"Discover's telemarketing scripts contained many misrepresentations, implying that these products were free of charge and simply 'added benefits,'"

And a stupid quote:

Quote:

The CFPB and FDIC also found that in some cases, sales representatives were paid incentives when they enrolled customers in these products.

Commissions? In some cases we were paid commissions? No shit, really? A salesperson getting commissions?

Okay, the first quote isn't true in the case of the company I worked for, we never implied that the products were free of charge. It is true that the Discover, "Script," implied that, but we never adhered to the Discover script because the Discover script wouldn't sell water in a friggin' desert.

I wrote presentations for the products, which were not at all sanctioned by Discover, but they were truthful and they included the price of the product. My script sold the Hell out of Credit Score Tracker and was even better for Identity Theft Protection.

You can sell this crap honestly, but you just have to be super aggressive, super pushy and have a really strong close. If someone pursues it aggressively, they don't even have to be any good to get six sales per day against a goal of seven. Six won't get you fired, that's over 75% of goal, which is acceptable. You'll get six laydowns per day.

The only nefarious thing that occurred at my company is that Identity Theft Protection used to be $12.99/month, but you got a full refund if you cancelled within thirty days, and still got the reports/scores from all three credit bureaus. They switched ITP to $9.99/month, but it was only one bureau with no refund if you cancel. Anyway, let's just say if the customer ASSUMED that there would be a refund for cancelling within thirty days that the customer would not be corrected, but nobody ever told the customer that, either.

Nothing I could do about that, anyway. I wouldn't have put up with it, but I was supervising Credit Score Tracker at the time, which never had a thirty-day cancellation policy, so we never said it did.

I eventually switched to the business card and the company (now closed) began directly lying that there was a thirty-day cancellation refund on both Identity Theft Protection and Credit Score Tracker, I ran my crew legit on Business Card, and the new supervisor who had them lying their asses off on Credit Score Tracker still had the team performing slightly worse than they performed under me while telling the truth!

Anyway, that's when I got the word that the hotel I manage now was looking for a manager, I used to be the front desk supervisor here before going to supervise at the call center, and the owner of the hotel actually called me before I called him, so here I am.

I was a bit sick of that place, anyway, lying about the thirty days on both of those programs. However, under no circumstances did anyone ever imply or directly state that the program was free. That was a function of Discover's idiotic script which would have you do that and then fly through the disclosure reading at a rate of about 500 words per minute. Their, "Implying," script didn't work anyway. The only time we used them anyway was for client sessions when Discover would listen to the calls, so we had to use their scripts. In about thirty hours of doing client sessions with people who actually worked for Discover, I only heard one sale, and that was a laydown...that's how bad their idiotic script was.

Quote: Mission146

Anyway, that's when I got the word that the hotel I manage now was looking for a manager, I used to be the front desk supervisor here before going to supervise at the call center, and the owner of the hotel actually called me before I called him, so here I am.

Just curious, Is your hotel in sabre? I ask because I book a ton of hotels in sabre for my clients, mostly international but occasionally domestic. I'm an International Corporate Business Travel Agent.

Just my 5 cents worth. As far as I can tell from reading through all the articles, the fact that Wynn wants to share tips is not illegal in the state of NV. The problem is that, if I read the law correctly, all employees have to agree to the sharing of the tips.......

In this last statement lies the rub. Did Wynn get the necessary quorum in order to move forward or did he unilaterally make the decision based on half of the law?

I think this has been a thorny issue for the casino industry for a very long time. How to deal with tips for dealers, should they be pooled, should they go table for table, should they share with other non tip revenue staff???

There is no easy solution as you can't make everybody happy all of the time. I think the current 24 hour split is about the best the casinos can do and it is about the fairest right now.

At the end of the day, as a player, you tip if you feel you have received decent service, which will be different for each person based on theor personal preference.

Dealers should also understand that they are on display, they are the first contact that the casino has in many instances. Deliver the experience and you will be looked after. If your friends are not pulling their weight then you should take appropriate action by involving your managers or HR if necessary.

Do a good job :)

Quote: terapined

Just curious, Is your hotel in sabre? I ask because I book a ton of hotels in sabre for my clients, mostly international but occasionally domestic.

No, but thank you for asking. I only list myself on the OTAs that the franchise forces me to, we're quite busy right now, so I really don't need to pay the commissions. If the market goes to crap, then I'll probably list on all of the ones I can find.

Quote:

I'm an International Corporate Business Travel Agent.

Cool. I don't have a favorable opinion of OTAs or TPWs, in general, but I still like you personally.

Quote: Mission146

Cool. I don't have a favorable opinion of OTAs or TPWs, in general, but I still like you personally.

Don't misunderstand, there's nothing wrong with the occupation. It's just that if the only means by which rooms could be booked were through the franchise or hotel-direct, our margins would be better because there would be no TPW commissions chipping at our revenues.

Quote: Mission146

Don't misunderstand, there's nothing wrong with the occupation. It's just that if the only means by which rooms could be booked were through the franchise or hotel-direct, our margins would be better because there would be no TPW commissions chipping at our revenues.

Believe me, I totally understand. In my business, hotels and airlines have a love/hate relationship with us.
A certain hotel chain hates us, decides to cut our commissions. So therefore we stay away from booking them. Their sales go down, they come back and say we love you, here's your commissions, please book us. Same with airlines. It just goes back and forth.
I work in a very busy office so we have a lot of pull, over 200 corporate travel agents in just my office. Company wide, probably over 1k corporate travel agents. That's a ton of airline tickets and a ton of hotel room reservations. I would say different hotels and different airlines bring in a catered lunch about 2 times a week, every week, so they can give us a pitch.

Quote: terapined

Believe me, I totally understand. In my business, hotels and airlines have a love/hate relationship with us.
A certain hotel chain hates us, decides to cut our commissions. So therefore we stay away from booking them. Their sales go down, they come back and say we love you, here's your commissions, please book us. Same with airlines. It just goes back and forth.
I work in a very busy office so we have a lot of pull, over 200 corporate travel agents in just my office. Company wide, probably over 1k corporate travel agents. That's a ton of airline tickets and a ton of hotel room reservations. I would say different hotels and different airlines bring in a catered lunch about 2 times a week, every week, so they can give us a pitch.

You're a cool guy, admire the honesty!

Definitely a hate/tolerate relationship, depending on how strong the market is. Fortunately, I've never relied on a TPW so much that a single one getting ticked off at me could kill me. In fact, I actually do have a contract with one with whom I am not required to have a contract, but they needed me much more than I needed them, (booking for a huge company and couldn't GET rooms anywhere) so it's a very favorable contract, for me. The only concession I made was direct billing as opposed to C.C., but other than that, the terms are all mine.

That sounds like a cool gig, and the chains are probably even okay with you, they do the same thing, in a way. I think it is only individual hotel owners and managers that have a negative opinion about TPW's and OTA's.