Nareed's Own New English Dictionary of Gambling
Advantage Player (AP): A person capable of sucking every last bit of fun and enjoyment from any form of gambling.
Quote: 1arrowheaddrDo AP's suck the fun out of gambling for themselves or for others?
For everyone. Theirs is a dark and glum gaming world.
Quote: NareedOk, so far I only ahve one definition (and possibly I'll drop the idea after this post), but it's an important one:
Advantage Player (AP): A person capable of sucking every last bit of fun and enjoyment from any form of gambling.
Am I missing something? Since when is gambling fun? It's a nightmarish grind.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou'd probably have no clue if one was at a table with you. So your statement is false.
I don't particularly pay attention to other people at the table. I do pay attention, up to a point, to posters here. The APs tend to make gambling as tedious as, well, boredom.
Not all of them. But the vast majority do seem to be that way.
Quote: IbeatyouracesExactly. Its the "industry" that labeled gambling "fun" or "entertainment." Some of us didn't fall for that malarky.
Of course not. Wise gamblers seek to suffer, eh?
Quote: IbeatyouracesI wouldn't say tedious or boring.
I would.
Now wait: I did :)
Quote:I treat it as a job just as a pro baseball player would his game.
Oh, well. Baseball has no redeeming qualities at all. I'd try something else if I were you.
Still, some people like or even love their jobs. It's rare to hear an AP express any passion, like or even distant fondness for his "job." Which is quite understandable, as advantage play produces exactly nothing.
Quote: Nareed
Still, some people like or even love their jobs. It's rare to hear an AP express any passion, like or even distant fondness for his "job." Which is quite understandable, as advantage play produces exactly nothing.
I think that it produces something because the Advantage Players use some of the monies earned to purchase tangible, "Base Goods," for themselves which the casinos would likely not be doing if they retained that specific money. I'd have to have the books of any one specific casino to make an assessment, but I should imagine that the money is not as, "Active," as it could be. AP's simply re-allocate, first to themselves from the casino, and then to others from themselves.
I also do not know why passion, enjoyment or fondness for a job is expected for a job to have any value. If that were the case, my most valuable job would be being a newspaper carrier when I was a kid or being a PM Grocery Supervisor making just better than minimum wage when I was much younger. Those are the only jobs I have ever, "Loved," my other jobs I have tolerated to varying degrees.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI like my job and have the passion for it.
If you say so.
Quote:And it produces for me.
That doesn't make it productive. I'll skip the obvious analogy and ask instead: is anyone hiring APs?
Quote:BTW, since you like the loose deuces game in DT Vegas, I'd call you a part time AP :)
Good try.
I play it because I like it. And because it's at a location I enjoy as well (reasonably quiet, good drink service). If they moved it to the main floor at the Ditz, I'd complain bitterly about it and never play it there.
Quote: Nareed
That doesn't make it productive. I'll skip the obvious analogy and ask instead: is anyone hiring APs?
Yeah, Teliot was an AP before he became the man on game protection. Further, Richard Marcus was an outright cheater, and he also works in game protection now.
Quote: Mission146I also do not know why passion, enjoyment or fondness for a job is expected for a job to have any value.
On the contrary. A productive job is more likely to ellicit love or passion. I know because I work at an instrinsically unproductive job, which nonetheless makes tons of money for the company.
Quote: Mission146Yeah, Teliot was an AP before he became the man on game protection. Further, Richard Marcus was an outright cheater, and he also works in game protection now.
But they are not hired to do advantage play.
Wow. That's a pretty bold / narrow minded opinion. Particularly since its not true.Quote: NareedAdvantage Player (AP): A person capable of sucking every last bit of fun and enjoyment from any form of gambling.
Quote: AxelWolfNareed Im not sure where to start because your just so far off with this statement you sound bitter. You sound like one of them guys that belittles every one that dose something that they themselves fail at.
There are two observations to make:
1) Paragraph: a device that makes online communications easier to read (whether this is a good thing is debatable, given the nature of most of what gets communicated online).
2) Read up on Ambrose Bierce's "The Devil's Dictionary."
Quote: NareedThere are two observations to make:
1) Paragraph: a device that makes online communications easier to read (whether this is a good thing is debatable, given the nature of most of what gets communicated online).
2) Read up on Ambrose Bierce's "The Devil's Dictionary."
3) Look up the definition of 'Condescending' :-)
Quote: Switch3) Look up the definition of 'Condescending' :-)
It's been awhile, but it should have something to do with explaining irony to the irony-impaired ;)
Quote: Nareedgiven the nature of most of what gets communicated
This is why you are blocked. Unfortunately others actually choose to quote you.
Quote: Nareed1) Paragraph: a device that makes online communications easier to read (whether this is a good thing is debatable, given the nature of most of what gets communicated online).
It was a rant, and a good one indeed! The grammar police hereby award Wolf a lifetime exemption from paragraphination :-)
Also kudos for articulating what I suspect most of have been thinking...
Quote: NareedOn the contrary. A productive job is more likely to ellicit love or passion. I know because I work at an instrinsically unproductive job, which nonetheless makes tons of money for the company.
I work at a very productive job now, and I am not passionate about it. I have a passion for eating, which the paycheck facilitates, but that's about the extent of it.
Quote: Mission146I work at a very productive job now, and I am not passionate about it. I have a passion for eating.
I imagine, what are 6' 8 or something? How many calories
a day does it take just to keep you upright..
Quote: EvenBobI imagine, what are 6' 8 or something? How many calories
a day does it take just to keep you upright..
I cheat a bit and call it 6'4". I actually don't eat that much, believe it or not. I currently weigh (as of yesterday) 192 pounds. I probably roll with about 1500 calories on a day that I don't work (except last night at this Chinese Buffet that was absolutely a Sushi Paradise, they also had crawfish, octopus, salmon, whitefish, cod, cocktail shrimp, mussels and clams...I had a bit of everything) and closer to 3,000 calories on days that I work. I'm still losing weight because I burn something like 5,000 calories on days that I work.
My calorie count is kept fairly low, because with exception to my weekly intake of alcohol, I don't drink anything that has any calories, only coffee or water. No cream, no sugar.
If your only comment is to point out my horrible writing skill especially on a small phone (in which I'm well aware of and have pointed out a few times) and some dictionary advice. Ill assume my point was made and you had nothing else.Quote: NareedThere are two observations to make:
1) Paragraph: a device that makes online communications easier to read (whether this is a good thing is debatable, given the nature of most of what gets communicated online).
2) Read up on Ambrose Bierce's "The Devil's Dictionary."
Quote: Mission146I work at a very productive job now, and I am not passionate about it.
As a rule you should be obtuse in your own time only :)
Quote: AxelWolfIf your only comment is to point out my horrible writing skill especially on a small phone (in which I'm well aware of and have pointed out a few times) and some dictionary advice. Ill assume my point was made and you had nothing else.
I've no idea what your point was. I did not read through the thicket of words as posted. But if you take a sarcastic, ironic remark seriously, I figured you might need a refresher on Bierce.
Quote: NareedAdvantage Player (AP): A person capable of sucking every last bit of fun and enjoyment from any form of gambling.
Quote: DJTeddyBearWow. That's a pretty bold / narrow minded opinion. Particularly since its not true.
Actually Dave, it's pretty spot on. AP's are a true damper of the social/recreation/fun-seeking gambling scene, - as they do it as a job, as pro's, and not a recreation.
AP's don't spread or promote recreational or social gambling, as they're all "No B.S. pro's with a purpose."
Nareed's observation is reasonable, as it's the AP's presence and purpose in the casino that's both very bold, very narrow, and very un-fun for other recreational players and for casino workers.
Dave, - they're pro's doing a job, not seeking fun.
This statement is narrow minded. There are lots of fun plays and Pro's that have fun doing what they love. If you tip well and treat casino employees with respect they love Pro's. I think there are a few curmudgeonly cheap bastards that give everyone a bad name. I have played promotions where I give a $100 tip a quarter royal. I have hung out and went to shows, shot pool, gambled and drank with security guards, hosts, bartenders, dealers, cocktail waitresses I even dated a few casino employees. I have seen casino employees quit there jobs and go work for a slot team. Often pro's make life long friends with other pro's and have friendly competitions, good humored banter, they have BBQ.s together, play sports and games with each other. I know some pro's that have meet and married there significant other At the casinos. I would guess Pro's wont chime in here dude to the fact its in their best interest to lead others to believe its a boring unsatisfying job in order to keep the new competition away.Quote: PaigowdanActually Dave, it's pretty spot on. AP's are a true damper of the social/recreation/fun-seeking gambling scene, - as they do it as a job, as pro's, and not a recreation.
AP's don't spread or promote recreational or social gambling, as they're all "No B.S. pro's with a purpose."
Nareed's observation is reasonable, as it's the AP's presence and purpose in the casino that's both very bold, very narrow, and very un-fun for other recreational players and for casino workers.
Dave, - they're pro's doing a job, not seeking fun.
Quote: NareedAs a rule you should be obtuse in your own time only :)
Off-topic, but I read "obese" the first time I looked at that sentence, and I was trying to figure out how one might accomplish that when I realized what you actually wrote.
Quote: AxelWolfThis statement is narrow minded. There are lots of fun plays and Pro's that have fun doing what they love. If you tip well and treat casino employees with respect they love Pro's.
Very True. It is all about the treatment of people, both ploppies and workers. Tokes cut into a Pro's profit, and many are loathe to either share or to be social.
Quote: AxelWolfI think there are a few curmudgeonly cheap bastards that give everyone a bad name. I have played promotions where I give a $100 tip a quarter royal. I have hung out and went to shows, shot pool, gambled and drank with security guards, hosts, bartenders, dealers, cocktail waitresses I even dated a few casino employees. I have seen casino employees quit there jobs and go work for a slot team. Often pro's make life long friends with other pro's and have friendly competitions, good humored banter, they have BBQ.s together, play sports and games with each other. I know some pro's that have meet and married there significant other At the casinos. I would guess Pro's wont chime in here dude to the fact its in their best interest to lead others to believe its a boring unsatisfying job in order to keep the new competition away.
Well, this is also true, but I guess pros worry more about their own take than they do being thought of as a "good, salt-of-the-earth" everyday man as they make their rounds. It often shows, and gives a rep. Also true about people and dealers more willing to take action, and take someone down who had acted like a dick instead of a good guy. It is better to make friends than enemies as you make your rounds.
As for it being satisfying work, I can't see how it is. It's neither rocket science, nor about something that is truly beneficial to the business you're skimming and scamming, or to the society in general. AP play is not about contribution, it is about being self-seeking and parasitic on a legitimate and heavily-regulated business. And no, the casinos are actually not the parasitic ones here, as they do provide gambling services for a sea of people who often have contempt and conspiracy claims for being provided these services, and which is a tough enough business when just servicing the innocent.
Two things I believe:
1. If you're not an AP player, but just a regular, straight-up gambler, but who believes that the casinos you patronize are somehow evil, or carrying out a conspiracy [like EvilBob....I mean EvenBob], then you're better off at a bowling alley or a book club until you accept casinos are just another form of legitimate entertainment businesses or providers. The "predatory conspiracy drumbeat" is B.S. in the end, especially if you're hanging around here or at casinos. Feel good about supporting outlets you feel are 100% legit.
2. I don't believe AP work is a satisfying, reliable, or socially redeeming avenue, either as a job or pastime, but for many a compulsion or a slick "jolly-seeking" side show of gambling that is not legit gambling or legit in general, even if justified on some sort of a "I'm a Robin Hood versus the evil empire" basis, which it often is. I have a begrudging respect for APs who say, "Yeah, casinos are a legit business, but I just enjoy (or am compelled) to enjoy and seek out my self-seeking shenanigan-doing in this area. I also get jollies from fare-beating and other free lunch scams, too! It's exactly what I do!"
Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd we feel exactly the same about you and your "industry."
Doesn't matter one iota how you feel about the gaming industry, it really doesn't.
You get flagged and shut down as an AP, the point is mute.
Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd we dont have to offer our services(all gamblers) to you either. Works both ways so try again.
No it doesn't. Gamblers will show up, every day. You can count on it.
We aren't going out of business anytime soon.
Quote: AxelWolfDan are you or have you ever been an AP?
No, and decidedly so, on purpose.
I'm on the dark side, as people would say.
Actually, I'm a casino game designer (on payroll at a manufacturer), and had been a dealer.
As a dealer, my job was to stop/report AP, and let the ploppies play unencumbered.
As a game designer, one function of my job is to ensure game protection is present and robust - at the design level.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces[on showing up every day as an AP, and not going out of business]And neither will I, 100% guaranteed!
No, not guaranteed, Aces.
All it takes is for the phone to ring in the pit, and for the floorman to say to you, "I'm sorry, Sir, you're done for the night."
As I suspected. I believe you think of all APs as some kind of big betting card counters who seek a thrill makeing huge bets on blackjack hands meanwhile trying to find ways to cheat and avoid detection. Not all APs worth this way not all APs are seeking some demented thrill.Quote: PaigowdanNo, and decidedly so, on purpose.
I'm on the dark side, as people would say.
Actually, I'm a casino game designer (on payroll at a manufacturer), and had been a dealer.
As a dealer, my job was to stop/report AP, and let the ploppies play unencumbered.
As a game designer, one function of my job is to ensure game protection is present and robust - at the design level.
Quote: AxelWolfAs I suspected. I believe you think of all APs as some kind of big betting card counters who seek a thrill makeing huge bets on blackjack hands meanwhile trying to find ways to cheat and avoid detection. Not all APs worth this way not all APs are seeking some demented thrill.
No, actually, I don't. A great danger is assuming you know what other people think when they've said nothing to that effect, just because they're in an opposing position.
Some AP's are gracious, discreet, and smooth, well under the radar.
Many aren't.
I've seen counters play BPs, huge bankroll et al, as well have seen some pathetic green-action grinders try to grind out some money for a tank of gas and a paid cell phone bill. I've tracked shoes so much from one side it's hard to play as a non-counting recreational player on BJ. So I play dice, Pai Gow Poker, UTH, 3CP, etc.
And it's absolutely true that some AP's aren't compelled or obsessed to "AP" - using AP as a verb. But to be a successful AP, you've got to be pretty serious, a damn-close to obsessed-with-it level, to be good enough for it to be a reliable job. The most extreme example of an "AP focus" running over a formally normal electrical engineers life and family was the case of Keith Taft. Most are no where near that extreme, lost, or daffy about it, many are quite sober and business-like about it all, like Nathaniel Tilton. Still is guaranteed eventual burn out with no career to show for it.
I also know that some AP's have sent in death threats to ex-AP's who turned "casino side" and exposed their methods, and provided effective counter-measures. I will say that to act in such a way is about as low-life, dirt bag gangster, and ethically bankrupt as it comes: Death threats? Really?
Overall, I think AP is misguided, and when it does become an obsession or a fixation (and it can easily be), it's a waste of one's time and focus in life, and not a romantic "look at me - as a new day Robin Hood" kind of thing, slaying the evil [sic] casino operators. And yeah, I look at someone who's too fixated, or overly praiseful of AP as a "righteous dude thing" as misguided, at least to some degree. I do not roll my eyes and make a "pfft!" sound, but yeah, I think it is no goal to have, and that it avails most people absolutely nothing in the long run. (And yes, there are plenty who say, "but I'm different concerning this.")
Quote: Paigowdan
2. I don't believe AP work is a satisfying, reliable, or socially redeeming avenue, "
Unlike working in a casino, which as we know is
chock full of redeeming qualities.
Quote: EvenBobUnlike working in a casino, which as we know is
chock full of redeeming qualities.
Touche.... Many jobs are not 'satisfying, reliable, or socially redeeming'. That's why it is called 'work' or a 'job'. Some get lucky to findemployment that fits one, two, or three of those criteria, but many do not. Many work in a job so that they can support themselves and their families, nothing more, nothing less.
