21+3 Ruins Blackjack

Ive been a dealer for 3 years now, and even though im more of a Baccarat/Paigaw/Roulette dealer, When I deal blackjack, i look forward to being on DoubleDeck or NON 21+3 Tables.

Its a really popular Side bet in the midwest, 3/4 of the BJ tables at my casino has this side bet, while the others are BJ InBETween

Even though it payed 9-1, which is a good payout, I think it ruins the sanctity of blackjack..Epically when you have those players who only care about the 21+3 bet, and not about blackjack..they gripe when they dont get it..they play MORE on the bet over the BJ bet, and complain that they cannot win. Most of the players will in return play BJ terribly.

Then there is those people who play on others hands because they hit it once 3 hands ago, or move seats because the person who left had a few..and i hate the people who say "If he didnt hit/stay last hand, I would have had a poker hand"

As a player I dont play it, and my biggest pet peeve is when others point it out that I had hit it and not played it. I dont let them play my hand.

Dont get me started on "My poker hand was in the hole"


/rant

Do you guys play this side bet?

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We put it in about a year ago and everybody HATES dealing it. The game is no longer blackjack, it turns it into a carny game...

I'm proud to say that during my short stint at the Venetian no side bets were added to blackjack. This is something I lobbied hard for.

I rarely play BlackJack because of all the idiots that point out the rare hand I have that would have won the side bet, without mentioning the twenty hands that would have lost. And it doesn't matter WHAT the side bet is. Always happens....

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I only place blackjack side bets that have no effect on the actual game itself. The 3 we have are Super Pairs (first two cards are a pair and no way to effect game), Bust Bonus (you can bet if the dealer will bust, but all player action is complete when this happens) and Lucky Ladies (first two cards equal 20, no effect on the game).

We had a tie bet game where players would hit to try and get a tie and it changed the way people played. I removed it when I took over as Supervisor.

ZCore13

In the UK there is also a Top 3 bet (pays 90/1 180/1 270/1 for trips, str fl, suited trips) as well as the 21+3. It is proving very popular and some people who don't play blackjack are now playing just for the chance to win big. It doesn't slow the game down much but, for those that play it, basically means they have to decide who much they want to lose chasing that elusive big win. For a £2 table (max is £10 on the Top 3) I have seen people win hundreds, which is why they come back again and is becoming popular with others.
(ref : http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/blackjacktop3.html)

Quote: charliepatrick

In the UK there is also a Top 3 bet (pays 90/1 180/1 270/1 for trips, str fl, suited trips) as well as the 21+3. It is proving very popular and some people who don't play blackjack are now playing just for the chance to win big. It doesn't slow the game down much but, for those that play it, basically means they have to decide who much they want to lose chasing that elusive big win. For a £2 table (max is £10 on the Top 3) I have seen people win hundreds, which is why they come back again and is becoming popular with others.
(ref : http://www.ukcasinotablegames.info/blackjacktop3.html)

Are these owned by Galaxy Gaming?

Quote: UCivan

Are these owned by Galaxy Gaming?

Yes. Galaxy has Three Card Poker and 21+3 (and Top 3) in the U.K., and 21+3/Top 3 in North America.

Thanks, Mr. Patrick! For the record, (and for all the understandable dealer complaints about BJ side bets), 21+3 is hugely popular, hugely successful, because of its bottom-heavy pay scale, easy of play, and lack of effect on Basic strategy. I totally understand being a Blackjack purist 100%, too.

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While I hate to say this as an ex-dealer, dealers can often be the weakest front-line link in terms positive attitude and professionalism. (Of course, if you are a dealer who is reading this, this of course does not necessarily apply to you.)

We get paid to suit up, show up, and run a fast, clean game, and radiate gratitude, patience, and happiness to absolutely miserable S.O.B.'s who sweat the money and spit in your face - but I'm talking here more of our floormen than the players.

The least of our worries is an easy to deal and established side bet. 21+3 adds...

+1 +1

For whatever reason, 21+3 is real big in St. Louis. I try to avoid playing at a table like that if possible because I will never the end of it if I make a winning hand. From the casino's side, it's quite popular here though.

Let me preface my post with the fact that I am biased on this topic due to my involvement in marketing a BJ side bet.

That being said I much prefer BJ side bets as the method that casinos employ to increase their win on lower minimum BJ tables as opposed to putting in a 6/5 rule. Purists can avoid the side bet by not playing them, those that chose to make them "pay the freight" for keeping the table from becoming a horrible game for every player.

I was playing a midwest casino recently that had 21+3. I was the only one not playing it. I sat at first base for about 3 hours. Other players came and went all over the table. All played 21+3, pretty much every hand. The dealer was busting a lot, and some counts were pretty good. I was consistently building my chip stacks. Every other player kept busting out...mostly on side bets. I routinely saw people bet $10 on the hand and the same amount on the 21+3 bet. I'd hate to think what that kind of betting strategy does to a players EV. To everyone's credit, no one was giving me a hard time for not playing it. Which is usually what happens.

Anyway, long story shorter. This one player, who was obviously a regular and knew the dealer well, had bought in for $100 in nickels three separate times ... and lost it every time, again mostly playing side bets. He came back to the table a forth time with another Benjamin. As he bought in (again)..the dealer looked at him and said....."are you going to piss this away on the side bet again". The player laughed and said "yeah probably"....The dealer looked over at me and said. "this guy has been here my whole shift....he hasn't played a single side bet...he's still here, that should tell you something". The player looked at me...looked at my chips( a mountain of green and red)...shrugged..and plopped down another side bet. The dealer laughed, looked at me and said "it's like this every day".

The hold on that game must have been huge that day.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Thank (insert deity) for ploppies.

Yep.

And Paradigm is right, biased opinion or not, bets like this help casinos be satisfied with their hold without resorting to draconian measures like 6:5 BJ.

And standard 21+3 isn't even that bad of a side bet! If you play basic strategy with a 50/50 split on BJ (standard Midwest rules: 6 deck, H17, DOA, DAS, no surr) and 21+3 then you have a combined 1.94% house edge. This is still better than any "carny" poker game. 21+3 extreme is definitely rough though.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

For sure they help the bottom line. As I've stated, as long as I'm not bothered into playing them and the game keeps moving, then they are ok.

Do you never play them? It seems like there would be some times when a game like 21+3 would be worth playing.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If your asking if I count side bets, no I do not.

I haven't looked into it much, but I think this one basically counts itself. As the count in BJ moves from 0, the hit-rate in 21+3 should increase because 3oak and straights should become more common.

Quote: rdw4potus

I haven't looked into it much, but I think this one basically counts itself. As the count in BJ moves from 0, the hit-rate in 21+3 should increase because 3oak and straights should become more common.

Probably not enough to care though. The bulk of the bet's return comes from making flushes, a whopping 52.5% of it.

If you track suits, eliot shows it's countable. Is it worth it? Probably not.

Wow...i read the article. I'm sure someone smarter than me could count this side bet. But he/she better be rainman.