mutual admiration society

The obsession with the negative expectation of casino games and the number crunching that goes on infinitum in most of the forums is extremely boring and self serving. Posters fighting over hundredths of a percent speaks for itself. I get the impression that most of the folks on this site lay in wait for "fresh meat" and pounce. Since most consider themselves Advantaged Players they take what they believe to be the high ground thus peering down on the "chumps" that dare try to beat a negative expectation game.

Advantage Players :-).....are not stalking in forums....they are quietly winning. "Those that can do....do and those that can't... teach". I'm am 100% sure that nobody in this forum is making serious money playing any game. The real players are not wasting time in chat rooms on goofy circular arguments.

The Wizard of Vegas site is nothing more than a mutual admiration society with the Wizard being the titular head.

[whisper]

SHH!

Look!

Something has climbed down from the treetops!

It is...

a troll!

Isn't it cute? Everybody must be very quiet now! Don't startle it!

Seriously, don't make a sound!

[/whisper]

Quote: treetopbuddy

extremely boring and self serving

I guess a good ol' troll snipe once in a while can liven it up!

Personally, I'm not making any money through advantage play, and I don't think I would enjoy trying. I'm struggling to motivate myself to even drive to the casino (half-hour away) right now to play poker that is not hold'em.

I believe the blackjack counters are APs to varying extents. And they occasionally have to take a "break" from being in the casino, so posting here is something else for them to do.

Canyonero posting also points out the obsession that "trolling" is prevalent on this site and mutual admiration society must be on guard to protect the Wizard

thanks for the honest straightforward reply

APs are quietly winning while hiding in plain sight and keeping quiet? Then what's that GWAE show doing on the air, and just how is it that casino employees are supposedly outsmarted by these lurkers? I don't think it's quite as mysterious as you paint it.

As you've learned in just over a week things can get a little cliquish here. One of my pet peeves has been the treatment of new members who have often been ridiculed or condescended to. I hope this hasn't happened to you.

Advantage players do exist and they peruse forums for many reasons. There is always something new to discover be it a new game, a room deal or a juicy promo.

what.....? Did I paint some mystery?

Quote: Canyonero

[whisper]

SHH!

Look!

Something has climbed down from the treetops!

It is...

a troll!

No, this guy is spot on.

We ARE wasting out time arguing about fractions of a decimal point on a percentage, when either a game may be an exciting "fine and fair" thing to play, or a dog.

If a house banked casino game has a "running house edge" on the flat/main bet of about 2.5% or so, and a good paytable on some interesting side bets, and on a game that is fun and interesting to play, I know there is no problem, and the "Fractions of a decimal point retentive Nerds" that we see here or anywhere are actually of little consequence.

If you expect no house edge, and you wail about it being there, - as it is supposed to be....then whose time are you wasting on a reality-based situation. The house has an edge, much like any business, IF you want action.

then you should also expect free admissions to movies and to broadway shows, free air travel, and the like, just for gracing us with your presence at a casino table game or slot machine.

Get real - if you're a gambler, then you simply play and enjoy the games at our mutual discretion, but do not act like you are somehow beneficent or charitable for throwing some dice or playing some cards.

Granted, Casino marketing makes customer service important, but the House Edge or Admission fees are not negotiable. Just like the movies and shows and plane tickets. Give us enough action, and without getting barred for bahvior/expectations, and you'll see enough freebies that you can add to AP play. Quibble about fractions of a decimal point, - you can roll this ball around at the forums. the OP was accurate.

your right 1BB.....new members are consistently treated poorly which simply points out an insecurity born out of year and years of losing. Yes, I agree there is always something new to learn and the promos don't hurt

Quote: 1BB

As you've learned in just over a week things can get a little cliquish here. One of my pet peeves has been the treatment of new members who have often been ridiculed or condescended to. I hope this hasn't happened to you.

Unfortunately this is an issue with a lot of forums. I don't think it happened to treetrop, but it's definitely possible I missed a thread where it did happen.

thanks for the support Paigowdan.....your insights are right on

Quote: treetopbuddy

thanks for the support Paigowdan.....your insights are right on

kk. Thank you! :)

We ahd a rather nice little social club going, too, until a few months ago, and then the influence of the Populares prevailed.

Quote: treetopbuddy

Advantage Players :-).....are not stalking in forums....they are quietly winning. "Those that can do....do and those that can't... teach".

Nareed's 23rd Law of Vegas: "24) Anyone can talk card counting. Real card counters don't. (Hat tip to PapaChubby)"

You can see the whole thing here: https://wizardofvegas.com/member/nareed/blog/3/#post119

Gee, sure had me fooled. I thought Aceofspades was a real person, not a figment on my imagination. Is Face just a mall cop pretending to work in casino security? Did Paigowdan actually invent a tablegame that has over 100 installs? Did I attend Focus group 1 or was that just a dream? ( I said dream, not nightmare, Dan. ) If you don't like this forum, you are free to leave. I have seen most newcomers treated with respect, except when they are misguided or have a hidden agenda. You are free to block any posters or threads you do not like. As far as I am concerened, Mike provides a great service here.

So don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out !

" House Edge or Admission fees are not negotiable." But by using the information displayed here and on WOO, many forum members, visitors, and others are paying a lower admission fee than in the past !

what on earth are you saying in the first half of your post? No, I'm not blocking any posts or threads. Yes, Mike does provide a nice service here and no I'm not going away. How are you doing on your show parlays big guy?

" I'm am 100% sure that nobody in this forum is making serious money playing any game." Sorry, I thought you were the ass who
posted this.

did you call me an "ass" or as in previous post "don't let the door hit you in the ass"..... are you obsessed with the word ass? I've read your post and I have the impression that your a "know it all do nothing kinda guy".....am I right? Your a show parlay guy so serious money for you is what... 850.00 dollars a year?

a little clarification on OP as if anybody cares......I'm guessing there are a few people that have made serious money gambling that have frequented this forum.....but we do know with a high degree of certainty who's never made any real money gambling or otherwise.....right Buzzard?

Quote: treetopbuddy

The obsession with the negative expectation of casino games and the number crunching that goes on infinitum in most of the forums is extremely boring and self serving. Posters fighting over hundredths of a percent speaks for itself. I get the impression that most of the folks on this site lay in wait for "fresh meat" and pounce. Since most consider themselves Advantaged Players they take what they believe to be the high ground thus peering down on the "chumps" that dare try to beat a negative expectation game.

Advantage Players :-).....are not stalking in forums....they are quietly winning. "Those that can do....do and those that can't... teach". I'm am 100% sure that nobody in this forum is making serious money playing any game. The real players are not wasting time in chat rooms on goofy circular arguments.

The Wizard of Vegas site is nothing more than a mutual admiration society with the Wizard being the titular head.

If I'm ever backroomed or no-mailed I'll remember to let surveillance know that posting on WizardofVegas.com disqualifies me from making any sort of advantage play.

O.K. you do that....

I am not sure I understand the purpose of your post? I guess to claim that members may not be who or what they claim??? Does that really need to be said? This is the internet for gosh sakes. There are no skill checks or lie detector tests. Are these some trolls and members living in a fantasy world? No doubt. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who is who. I am certainly not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I can figure out who is credible and who isn't in pretty short order.

As for your assertion that no one is making any money. I can guarantee that is not the case. No, I am not going to show you tax statements or bank accounts, you can believe what you like about me...what you believe is irrelevant to me. I am not auditioning for anything, nor selling anything. But let me tell you this about my own history. I started posting about my blackjack career back in 2006 on another blackjack site. That was my third year of supporting myself solely from blackjack and advantage play and 2006 was my worst year of my career. I made less than 5 figures, $9200 to be exact (I believe below the poverty level...lol). That was my total income for the year. I was in a roommate situation at the time, with no vehicle to my name and we are talking many meals of Mac and cheese and PB & J sandwiches. Thank good for a few comped meals. Do you really think a person is going to pick this particular time to start bragging about his AP career. lol I was simply sharing my experiences, while trying to learn from other players experiences, much as I continue to do today.

I can assure you that there are a handful of players that participate, not only here but other AP, and blackjack sites, that are very legit. A few I have met, personally. Some I know through other players/members that I network with. Usually those folks have the same objective as myself, and that is to learn or pick up any info that can be of benefit to them.

Now, let me tell you a little something about an AP's life. A few are associated with teams and have the benefit of teammates, but for most solo type players, its a pretty solitude lifestyle. Many are single, and if they are not, they travel a great deal ( I don't) taking them away from home. Most players spent a great deal of time alone. I think that is why many participate on such sites, not only for the benefits that I have already stated, but also as an outlet to communicate with and share ideas with like-minded individuals.

Quote: treetopbuddy

The obsession with the negative expectation of casino games and the number crunching that goes on infinitum in most of the forums is extremely boring and self serving.

Like any forum, you are free to disengage at any point if you find it boring and/or self serving. You are also welcome to join in the conversation!!

Quote: treetopbuddy

Posters fighting over hundredths of a percent speaks for itself.

There are a lot of math guys here. Math guys like to get the math right. I just skip threads and sites that bore me rather than take the time to tell them I am bored. Most likely, they don't care!!

Quote: treetopbuddy

I get the impression that most of the folks on this site lay in wait for "fresh meat" and pounce. Since most consider themselves Advantaged Players they take what they believe to be the high ground thus peering down on the "chumps" that dare try to beat a negative expectation game.

I know a few folks here have talked about Advantage Play but I don't think that a majority considers themselves APs. Most of the jumping on folks that gets done around here seems to come when someone shows a nasty attitude and makes negative comments about posters or the board just to stir things up as opposed to bringing honest questions and discussion to the table.

Quote: treetopbuddy

Advantage Players :-).....are not stalking in forums....they are quietly winning. "Those that can do....do and those that can't... teach". I'm am 100% sure that nobody in this forum is making serious money playing any game. The real players are not wasting time in chat rooms on goofy circular arguments.

I am willing to bet that there are some here that say they are APs that aren't and vice versa. It is the internet; anyone can say anything...it can be tracked back to an actual individual in many cases, but most people know folks won't take it that far. I'm 99% certain that someone here is making money playing as an AP. Being 100% sure that no one is doing so is a bit of an overstatement...very few real identities are known here; neither one of us really knows whether or not there are APs here that make serious money playing games.

Quote: treetopbuddy

The Wizard of Vegas site is nothing more than a mutual admiration society with the Wizard being the titular head.

You are free to leave at any time. The Wizard did not demand your presence nor your continued attendance. I'd pretty much bet that goes for everyone else here, too.

If you aren't a troll, sit back, relax, and enjoy the forum...or don't do so. if you are a troll, I'm sure you'll keep attacking the site until a ban is issued.

Have a nice day!!

I did clarify my OP and conceded that there are players on this site who have probably had great success. There is no higher calling than taking money from casinos. My mistake was to lump everybody into same group. Your take on the life of a solitary card counter is insightful. Thanks

Not clear what a troll is in this context.....but it's clear 'trolling" is not a good thing. Just what is the intention of these "trolls"? Seriously I do not know.

http://bit.ly/uZLBQV

Considering the amount of mutual hate on these forums, this wasn't an even borderline viable troll.

Quote: P90

Considering the amount of mutual hate on these forums, this wasn't an even borderline viable troll.

"I'm a gambler, not a hater"

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Some of us know how to get paid to watch that movie and not pay to watch it.

Amen, Brother !

Quote: treetopbuddy

I'm am 100% sure that nobody in this forum is making serious money playing any game.

The words "serious" and "money" are important. I don't consider myself an advantage player, but I do my best to exploit promos, signups, match play coupons, tax refund check cashing, and the like. Do I make "serious money?" Absolutely not. Do I usually eek out a small profit, which subsidies my love of low-rolling $3 craps? Absolutely.

In the strict sense, APs only care about money, but more recreational gamblers (like me), care about money, utility, and entertainment. Reading thoughtful debates about math is entertaining, so is trying to get a free ride.

For example, before I went to Vegas last Christmas, I exploited a food drive promotion at my local casino where you go $5 in free slot play per can of food donated. Corn is about 50 cent a can, the EV is about $4.50/can and you could do 3/day for a week. I think it's fun, so I don't consider the opportunity cost of my time. Beside, they have free self-serve coffee, so add another $2 value per trip. I did that for 5 days and netted about $80. The I bought an American Casino Guide for $12 and several of the match plays and other signup bonuses, which got my to about $150 with little/no risk.

With that $150 I can expect to play $3 craps with pass line bets and occasional odds, drink heavily, tip dealers, tip waitresses and high-five strangers for a few hours.

Again, this is not serious money. However, it feeds my ego, knowing that I'm one of the few who gets a free ride. You may argue that the free ride is not worth the opportunity cost of my time, but you you can't make that argument without knowing my the utility that I derive from the process. I know myself and how I value those things and I know that it is positive EV.

Call it whatever you want. I'll make the "serious money" at work and by maxing out my Roth, 401k, etc.

Meanwhile, I'll just keep having fun.

Hey, after getting an idea about what is going on at Casinomeister, I must say once more WoV is a pretty cool community. Come to think of it, mutual admiration seems like a pretty good foundation for a community like this, even if OP meant that derogatory.

Also I remember a brief stint at the 2+2 forums I would summarize like this:

"Me: Hey guys, I am an avid poker player and new to the forum, just wanted to say hi!

Froum Member X: Fuck you! I am better than you! You know nothing!"

(Dramatization, actual forum posts may have been different. Forum Member X not an actual forum handle.)


Anyway, I like it here, good job Mike, mods and regulars!

I've said my piece often enough that I've pretty much retired it, but for this thread I'll say it again: I gamble for fun. I make far more by going to work. WoO and WoV allow me to extend my entertainment budget, and allow me to play carny games with my eyes open. I don't understand why the site or the people here are required to conform to someone else's idea of what either should be, and I don't think the site or the people here need to justify their existence beyond being what they are.

Quote: Canyonero

Also I remember a brief stint at the 2+2 forums I would summarize like this:

"Me: Hey guys, I am an avid poker player and new to the forum, just wanted to say hi!

Froum Member X: Fuck you! I am better than you! You know nothing!"

(Dramatization, actual forum posts may have been different. Forum Member X not an actual forum handle.)


Anyway, I like it here, good job Mike, mods and regulars!

Yeah, some sections of 2+2 are like that. Sections that have more teen/20-something players who think the only poker game that exists is NLHE generally suffer from this problem more. The sections that I regularly post in are usually NOT this way.

Quote: Canyonero

Anyway, I like it here, good job Mike, mods and regulars!

Much appreciated! We like having you here!

Quote: Mission146

We like having you here!

With a fine Chianti?

And some Fava Beans, nice to see you, DorothyGale!