Is poker a sport?
February 20th, 2012 at 8:57:41 PM
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Poker is often spoken of as a sport.
It's featured on ESPN.
Foreign professional poker players coming to the USA use the same type of visa as athletes.
So is it a sport?
Think about it. Hell, respond if you wish.
Then highlight the following line to see the point of my question.
Since the wire act has recently been defined to apply only to sports betting, will the wire act apply to online poker?
It's featured on ESPN.
Foreign professional poker players coming to the USA use the same type of visa as athletes.
So is it a sport?
Think about it. Hell, respond if you wish.
Then highlight the following line to see the point of my question.
Since the wire act has recently been defined to apply only to sports betting, will the wire act apply to online poker?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 20th, 2012 at 9:06:38 PM
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Dude, I highlighted it and nothing came up. Please send refund asap.
February 20th, 2012 at 9:08:23 PM
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Use a browser newer than Netscape 2.0.
Works just fine. :)
Poker is not a physical sport, but I think you could class it as a sport. Just like you would Chess.
Works just fine. :)
Poker is not a physical sport, but I think you could class it as a sport. Just like you would Chess.
February 20th, 2012 at 9:09:44 PM
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You can just click quote and then read what he wrote...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 20th, 2012 at 9:12:06 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearPoker is often spoken of as a sport.
It's featured on ESPN.
Foreign professional poker players coming to the USA use the same type of visa as athletes.
So is it a sport?
Think about it. Hell, respond if you wish.
Then highlight the following line to see the point of my question.
Since the wire act has recently been defined to apply only to sports betting, will the wire act apply to online poker?
I don't think so. I think the Wire Act applies to bets *on* sports, not bets *during* sports, so even if poker is a sport, the betting is just part of the game. I think if there were an online poker tournament, playing in it would not violate the Wire Act. Taking bets on who will win, on the other hand, probably would.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 20th, 2012 at 9:22:19 PM
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Sorry you had troubles.Quote: klimate10Dude, I highlighted it and nothing came up. Please send refund asap.
Here's what I had hidden:
Since the wire act has recently been defined to apply only to sports betting, will the wire act apply to online poker?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 20th, 2012 at 9:47:26 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearPoker is often spoken of as a sport.
So is it a sport?
Not if you include physical exertion in the definition.
萬歲言論自由。
February 21st, 2012 at 12:06:06 AM
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I refuse to acknowledge poker as a sport, but rather a game of skill. Just like I don't acknowledge chess as a sport, or Nascar. But this is all my own definition. Many people regard all three as sports.
Additionally, I regard golf as a sport, however many refuse to.
Additionally, I regard golf as a sport, however many refuse to.
February 21st, 2012 at 12:12:59 AM
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Quote: TriplellI refuse to acknowledge poker as a sport, but rather a game of skill. Just like I don't acknowledge chess as a sport, or Nascar. But this is all my own definition. Many people regard all three as sports.
Additionally, I regard golf as a sport, however many refuse to.
Golf is definitely a sport. I think NASCAR is too, although I don't care for it. It takes a lot of physical and mental acuity to remain focused. It takes serious physical endurance and decision making to be successful at any type of driving sport.
I guess the word sport initially awakens in us a connotation of brute force and physical prowess and agility to achieve a team related or individual goal: Football, baseball, golf, gymnastics, track.
I'd say anything that involves endurance, agility, physical exertion, combined with having to analyze something mentally at the same time, is a sport.
I guess poker doesn't really fall into that category.
February 21st, 2012 at 12:29:53 AM
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NASCAR fans:
"...gun totin, tobacco chewing, drunken, sewer mouth rednecks and their husbands "...
"...gun totin, tobacco chewing, drunken, sewer mouth rednecks and their husbands "...
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief.
- Proverb.
February 21st, 2012 at 5:15:48 AM
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This topic, without a doubt, is one of the most contentious topics out there when discussing poker. To me, it's all in how you define the word sport. If you describe it as a competition of athleticism, then poker is not that at all. If you describe it as competition, then you could consider that a sport.
There are a lot of people who use the nickname "sport" to describe their kids (i.e. "Get over here, sport"). Those kids, in that case, are also a sport. Personally, I consider poker a mental sport, in the same vain as chess and dating.
There are a lot of people who use the nickname "sport" to describe their kids (i.e. "Get over here, sport"). Those kids, in that case, are also a sport. Personally, I consider poker a mental sport, in the same vain as chess and dating.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
February 21st, 2012 at 6:34:55 AM
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It may be time to refine my question.
Regardless of whether you personally think poker is a sport or not, do you think that the DOJ will try to use the sport aspect of poker to invoke the Wire Act?
Regardless of whether you personally think poker is a sport or not, do you think that the DOJ will try to use the sport aspect of poker to invoke the Wire Act?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 21st, 2012 at 7:19:34 AM
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The flow chart says no, and this flow chart has never been wrong. Someone should show to DOJ.
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
February 21st, 2012 at 7:48:19 AM
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Poker is a sport in as much as chess is a sport. I have a new appreciation for NASCAR as a sport after watching Kyle Busch repeatedly save his car from spinning out in the shootout on Saturday! I still hate him though.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
February 21st, 2012 at 7:59:55 AM
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Quote: s2dbakerPoker is a sport in as much as chess is a sport. I have a new appreciation for NASCAR as a sport after watching Kyle Busch repeatedly save his car from spinning out in the shootout on Saturday! I still hate him though.
Poker is as much a sport as shopping at Wal-Mart!
February 21st, 2012 at 8:06:10 AM
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Great analogy. Both involve sitting on your ass and exercising the brain muscle, and can involve spectators.Quote: s2dbakerPoker is a sport in as much as chess is a sport.
Would the Wire Act prevent spectators from internet wagering on a chess match?
Would the Wire Act prevent participants from internet wagering on their chess match?
Would the Wire Act prevent spectators from internet wagering on a poker game or tournament?
Would the Wire Act prevent participants from internet wagering on their poker game or tournament?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
February 21st, 2012 at 8:26:03 AM
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Poker is no more or less a sport than is pool / billiards.
"What, me worry?"
February 21st, 2012 at 8:28:31 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearGreat analogy. Both involve sitting on your ass and exercising the brain muscle, and can involve spectators.
Would the Wire Act prevent spectators from internet wagering on a chess match?
Would the Wire Act prevent participants from internet wagering on their chess match?
Would the Wire Act prevent spectators from internet wagering on a poker game or tournament?
Would the Wire Act prevent participants from internet wagering on their poker game or tournament?
I think you need to make the distinction between participants in a poker tournament playing out their hands, which involves pushing plastic tokens back and forth, and making wagers. Poker tournaments do not involve wagering at all. They involve an entry fee. So do bridge tournaments, chess tournaments, darts tournaments, NASCAR, marathons, etc. I think making an telephone or internet wager on the outcome of such an event is what the Wire Act was designed to prevent. It was not designed to prevent card tournaments from being played.
I also think there's a big difference between online cash poker and online poker tournaments insofar as the Wire Act is concerned. The Wire Act may possibly be construed to proscribe cash betting during the play of one's poker hand, even though the DoJ seems to have backed away from that position. I'm not sure how a federal judge would rule, and I'm certainly not one. But I don't readily see how it could be construed to preclude an entry fee into a poker tournament. In poker tournaments, like bridge tournaments, the goal is to amass the most of something. In poker, it's tournament chips. In bridge, it's tricks. It would seem to me that either both online poker and bridge tournaments are unlawful, or neither are.
Quote: Wire ActWhoever being engaged in the business of betting or wagering knowingly uses a wire communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers on any sporting event or contest, or for the transmission of a wire communication which entitles the recipient to receive money or credit as a result of bets or wagers, or for information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
Edit: it will be interesting to see how "any sporting event or contest" is ultimately construed by the courts. However, the DoJ has already issued its opinion on the meaning of the whole law, and games that aren't sporting events are allowable. Specifically, online lottery tickets are fair game. If you haven't yet read the DoJ opinion, here's the PDF.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 21st, 2012 at 8:41:58 AM
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In regards to the Wire Act, my analogy may not be that good. Although Chess involves gambits, it's not in and of itself "gambling". But I think in a tournament setting, chess and poker are closer since tournament betting in poker is not based on your actual buy-in fee.Quote: DJTeddyBearGreat analogy. Both involve sitting on your ass and exercising the brain muscle, and can involve spectators.
Would the Wire Act prevent spectators from internet wagering on a chess match?
Would the Wire Act prevent participants from internet wagering on their chess match?
Would the Wire Act prevent spectators from internet wagering on a poker game or tournament?
Would the Wire Act prevent participants from internet wagering on their poker game or tournament?
I'm no lawyer but I think that betting on any tournament, sport or not, would fall under the act.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
February 21st, 2012 at 9:34:12 AM
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What about backgammon, isn't there betting on that online?
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
February 21st, 2012 at 9:42:26 AM
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Quote: MrVPoker is no more or less a sport than is pool / billiards.
Disagree. Billiards requires agility and physical precision. Physical training is rewarded by improved results. Does not apply to Poker.
In fact, the awesome flowchart implies that Billiards is a sport due to its physical requirement, while Poker clearly is not.
Chess is the much better analogy
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
February 21st, 2012 at 9:43:44 AM
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Quote: dwheatleyDisagree. Billiards requires agility and physical precision. Physical training is rewarded by improved results. Does not apply to Poker.
In fact, the awesome flowchart implies that Billiards is a sport due to its physical requirement, while Poker clearly is not.
Chess is the much better analogy
I still think shopping at Wal Mart is more of a sport than poker.
February 21st, 2012 at 9:48:05 AM
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Yes, billiards requires fluidity of movement and exceptional hand/eye coordination, at least to excel at the highest levels, but the actual physical effort expended in playing is minimal.
To my mind, if the body doesn't break a sweat due to exertion, the activity in question should not be considered a true sport.
The primary purpose of sport, at least as I understood it while growing up, was to increase my physical fitness.
To my mind, if the body doesn't break a sweat due to exertion, the activity in question should not be considered a true sport.
The primary purpose of sport, at least as I understood it while growing up, was to increase my physical fitness.
"What, me worry?"
February 21st, 2012 at 9:57:08 AM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 21st, 2012 at 9:57:41 AM
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Would the winter olympic sport of "curling" qualify under that definition?Quote: MrVYes, billiards requires fluidity of movement and exceptional hand/eye coordination, at least to excel at the highest levels, but the actual physical effort expended in playing is minimal.
To my mind, if the body doesn't break a sweat due to exertion, the activity in question should not be considered a true sport.
The primary purpose of sport, at least as I understood it while growing up, was to increase my physical fitness.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
February 21st, 2012 at 9:57:43 AM
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" Yes, billiards requires fluidity of movement and exceptional hand/eye coordination, at least to excel at the highest levels, but the actual physical effort expended in playing is minimal."
A great example of hand/eye co-ordination carrying over from one sport to another is Walter Ray Williams. A world champion at
bowling and horse shoes.
A great example of hand/eye co-ordination carrying over from one sport to another is Walter Ray Williams. A world champion at
bowling and horse shoes.
February 21st, 2012 at 10:54:23 AM
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Quote: s2dbakerWould the winter olympic sport of "curling" qualify under that definition?
Those stones look heavy, and they sure can sweep quickly, but the flow chart does go against the Olympics in 'sports' like air rifle shooting, etc.
As far as billiards, bowling and horseshoes go, they could all be 'debatable' at the physical exertion point in the flow chart, leading them to be games and/or drinking games depending on house rules...
Solo venimos, solo nos vamos. Y aqui nos juntamos, juntos que estamos.
February 21st, 2012 at 10:59:31 AM
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Both curling and ironing are sports.
February 21st, 2012 at 11:09:44 AM
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Curling, billiards and snooker are all sports, as the rely on physical qualities (speed, strength and endurance aren't the only three we need to consider) and have interactions between both teams.
Driving is a sport, even if the machine is important, the driver is also part of the whole set up, and faster, more accurate reactions are important in motor racing.
Darts and Shooting are sports to me, even if there's no direct interaction between the players. It's about the limit though, and I'd not argue against them being removed to "competition" or another class.
Poker, Chess and other intellectual pursuits are not sports. Poker, doubly so, as the luck element is a much larger factor than in any other sport I know. It'd be like playing football, but instead of 6 points for a touchdown, you get a random number of points from 1 to 10, and the PAT can double or half this.
Driving is a sport, even if the machine is important, the driver is also part of the whole set up, and faster, more accurate reactions are important in motor racing.
Darts and Shooting are sports to me, even if there's no direct interaction between the players. It's about the limit though, and I'd not argue against them being removed to "competition" or another class.
Poker, Chess and other intellectual pursuits are not sports. Poker, doubly so, as the luck element is a much larger factor than in any other sport I know. It'd be like playing football, but instead of 6 points for a touchdown, you get a random number of points from 1 to 10, and the PAT can double or half this.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
February 21st, 2012 at 11:17:40 AM
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In a word. No.
I thinks its a hobby. Like fishing, pool or ten pin bowling. Oh wait, they are all sports.
I think is a competive game, hence its place on ESPN.
I also think the 'pros' or people who rely on poker as their main source of income make up 1% of everyone who takes part. I would also suggest that such pros are not taking part in any sort of sport, they are working.
I also think the wire act relates to placing wagers on sports events, rather than a sports event taking place. It would be like saying Football (and I mean real football, not that crappy game with the funny shaped ball you guys like), would not be allowed as its a sport. I think it would get messy if you wanted to place a wager on a winner of a poker tournament.
My point being, the US government should legalise on-line poker, increase rake by 2% and collect that directly from the poker room. One easy monthly payment, fail to make it and you get shut down. Then the players dont have to worry filling in loads of forms, off-setting losses etc. They are doing it in France, and I think its a very simple solution.
I thinks its a hobby. Like fishing, pool or ten pin bowling. Oh wait, they are all sports.
I think is a competive game, hence its place on ESPN.
I also think the 'pros' or people who rely on poker as their main source of income make up 1% of everyone who takes part. I would also suggest that such pros are not taking part in any sort of sport, they are working.
I also think the wire act relates to placing wagers on sports events, rather than a sports event taking place. It would be like saying Football (and I mean real football, not that crappy game with the funny shaped ball you guys like), would not be allowed as its a sport. I think it would get messy if you wanted to place a wager on a winner of a poker tournament.
My point being, the US government should legalise on-line poker, increase rake by 2% and collect that directly from the poker room. One easy monthly payment, fail to make it and you get shut down. Then the players dont have to worry filling in loads of forms, off-setting losses etc. They are doing it in France, and I think its a very simple solution.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
February 21st, 2012 at 11:20:54 AM
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" I also think the 'pros' or people who rely on poker as their main source of income make up 1% of everyone who takes part."
I think you are being way too generous !
I think you are being way too generous !
February 21st, 2012 at 11:25:09 AM
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Quote:I think is a competive game, hence its place on ESPN.
ESPN = Entertainment and Sports Promotion Network.
Some ESPN programming IS "Entertainment".
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
February 21st, 2012 at 11:36:05 AM
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There's no way poker is a sport. I could beat a pro heads up one on one in texas hold em about 30% of the time simply by going all in on pretty much every hand.
There's no sport that I could beat a pro 30% of the time in. Poker is a game/gambling
There's no sport that I could beat a pro 30% of the time in. Poker is a game/gambling
February 21st, 2012 at 12:00:21 PM
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Quote: FinsRuleThere's no way poker is a sport. I could beat a pro heads up one on one in texas hold em about 30% of the time simply by going all in on pretty much every hand.
There's no sport that I could beat a pro 30% of the time in. Poker is a game/gambling
I know plenty of games where a newbie has not even close to a 30% chance of beating an experienced player. :)
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
February 21st, 2012 at 1:10:11 PM
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Thats why poker is not a sport. And fin is correct!
February 21st, 2012 at 2:16:08 PM
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There are three sports - Football, Basketball, and Baseball. Everything else is a hobby, and activity, or a combination of the two. They're my rules, I make em up.
-The late, great George Carlin
-The late, great George Carlin
February 22nd, 2012 at 2:38:52 AM
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Quote: FinsRuleThere's no way poker is a sport. I could beat a pro heads up one on one in texas hold em about 30% of the time simply by going all in on pretty much every hand.
Not likely. He'll tighten up his range and only call with strong hands. If you count beating as stacking, rather than just taking a bank, try closer to 10%, for your bad beat chances.
I can think of some sports activities where you have a 10% win chance against a much stronger opponent. Really most that have to do with accuracy. Kicking a football into your opponent's goal maybe.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
February 22nd, 2012 at 4:27:08 PM
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Not for nuthin, but All-in with 7-2 ain;t makin too many friends either. You would have to consider that when leaving.
Your odds of gettin the crap beat outta you is probably more than 10%, and maybe more than 30%. :P
Your odds of gettin the crap beat outta you is probably more than 10%, and maybe more than 30%. :P
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
February 22nd, 2012 at 5:40:34 PM
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Really? And here I was thinking all-in with 7-2 will have everyone on the table asking for your phone number, because you're such a fantastic chap and they'd love to invite you to their next game.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
February 22nd, 2012 at 6:55:26 PM
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My friends & I have had this same conversation about other sports/activities/hobbies/whatever. It depends on how you define 'sport'. I found these definitions in a quick net search:
1. An athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature.
2. Something people compete in, either mental or physical, with standardized rules of play, scoring, and/or win/lose determinations.
3. A sport must involve formal competition; and must require competitors to utilize their bodies as the primary medium through which the competition takes place, in such a way that physical conditioning is central to the competition.
4. SportAccord uses the following definition of a sport:
a The sport proposed should have an element of competition.
b The sport proposed should in no way be harmful to any living creatures.
c The sport should not rely on equipment that is provided by a single supplier.
d The sport should not rely on any “luck” element specifically designed into the sport.
Our group included these criteria:
A. You must be able to play defense. That eliminates cheerleading, golf, and ballroom dancing.
B. You must sweat or physically exert yourself. That eliminates chess and bowling.
C. Strategy must be used during the contest, and should generally impact the contest at least as much as 'luck'.
I was really hoping to come up with a rule excluding the use of vehicles, so I could eliminate auto racing, but unfortunately, several friends pointed out that the same criteria could also be applied to horse racing, substituting animals for vehicles. Since I wholeheartedly believe horse racing should be counted as a sport, I'll grudgingly accept it's red headed step cousin auto racing too.
Just my $0.02.
1. An athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature.
2. Something people compete in, either mental or physical, with standardized rules of play, scoring, and/or win/lose determinations.
3. A sport must involve formal competition; and must require competitors to utilize their bodies as the primary medium through which the competition takes place, in such a way that physical conditioning is central to the competition.
4. SportAccord uses the following definition of a sport:
a The sport proposed should have an element of competition.
b The sport proposed should in no way be harmful to any living creatures.
c The sport should not rely on equipment that is provided by a single supplier.
d The sport should not rely on any “luck” element specifically designed into the sport.
Our group included these criteria:
A. You must be able to play defense. That eliminates cheerleading, golf, and ballroom dancing.
B. You must sweat or physically exert yourself. That eliminates chess and bowling.
C. Strategy must be used during the contest, and should generally impact the contest at least as much as 'luck'.
I was really hoping to come up with a rule excluding the use of vehicles, so I could eliminate auto racing, but unfortunately, several friends pointed out that the same criteria could also be applied to horse racing, substituting animals for vehicles. Since I wholeheartedly believe horse racing should be counted as a sport, I'll grudgingly accept it's red headed step cousin auto racing too.
Just my $0.02.
"Bite my Glorious Golden Ass!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez
February 22nd, 2012 at 7:00:35 PM
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Quote: MrVbut the actual physical effort expended in playing is minimal.
Yet it is still there. Where do you draw the line? Oh... sweat?
You should watch more billiards matches. I've seen people sweat.Quote:To my mind, if the body doesn't break a sweat due to exertion, the activity in question should not be considered a true sport.
February 22nd, 2012 at 7:23:42 PM
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Quote: Toes14b The sport proposed should in no way be harmful to any living creatures.
That rules out football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, boxing...
And trust me, I had to work to avoid the truly revolting pictures.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 22nd, 2012 at 7:36:00 PM
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I guess Chess is a sport then too.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
February 22nd, 2012 at 7:52:35 PM
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Quote: s2dbaker
I guess Chess is a sport then too.
Definitely, it obviously involves cheating.
The joker on the left can't even use one of his own pieces.
萬歲言論自由。
February 22nd, 2012 at 8:20:00 PM
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Quote: s2dbaker
I guess Chess is a sport then too.
Perhaps you haven't heard of chess boxing?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
