Professional Gamblers? Is there a such thing?
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| | 2 votes (4.76%) | ||
| | 25 votes (59.52%) |
42 members have voted
February 10th, 2012 at 11:51:10 AM
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A professional gambler is loosely defined as one who makes a living gambling. I have heard people claim to be professional gamblers; under what circumstances can this be possible?
I'm assuming that a career choice such as this is only feasible if one is an expert card counter at blackjack, a superior poker player (poker room poker only), an excellent handicapper at the racetrack and sportsbook, or an extremely lucky individual.
This is kind of a two part question and the poll doesn't really answer it accurately...
Can somebody truly be a professional gambler who plays only casino games, and does not count cards at blackjack or visit the poker room?
Every other game has a house advantage that cannot be overcome...so how can this be possible?
I'm assuming that a career choice such as this is only feasible if one is an expert card counter at blackjack, a superior poker player (poker room poker only), an excellent handicapper at the racetrack and sportsbook, or an extremely lucky individual.
This is kind of a two part question and the poll doesn't really answer it accurately...
Can somebody truly be a professional gambler who plays only casino games, and does not count cards at blackjack or visit the poker room?
Every other game has a house advantage that cannot be overcome...so how can this be possible?
February 10th, 2012 at 11:59:33 AM
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We are not all that far away from St. Patrick's Day.. so are you really going to deny the existence of Leprechauns? Moreover, are you going to be vociferous in your denial when its some drunken Irishman who is doing the buying?Quote: awakefield1983
Every other game has a house advantage that cannot be overcome...so how can this be possible?
I've described myself as a Professional Keno player (until someone took me seriously). I can not really think there are any craps players or roulette players who make a iving at it. There are a few who claim to and who sell systems.
Some people seem to be pros as various sports bets and do make huge wagers. You may recall my recent post on some obscure bowl game where eighty grand was lost by a LOW limit poker player. I shudder to think about those high limit poker players. I often think the sports book and nightclub crowd Professional Gamblers are merely rich men who've learned to lose slowly and can do okay at poker. I don't see anyone consistently breaking the bank at a craps table or roulette table though. I do see some strange things at BJ tables but its at the low limit tables where it would take you week to make a day's living even if you counted perfectly all the time.
February 10th, 2012 at 12:08:53 PM
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Just to be clear...the "professional keno player" remark was a joke?
February 10th, 2012 at 12:22:29 PM
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If it is a joke, my Aunt Rose will be disappointed.
February 10th, 2012 at 12:25:15 PM
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Quote: awakefield1983This is kind of a two part question and the poll doesn't really answer it accurately...
Because it's neither.
Professional gamblers used to exist in numbers. A small number is still out there, but in the West most of these would not consider themselves gamblers, even though they are.
Casinos haven't always been around, and haven't been available everywhere. You would just play with your friends or whoever, in "single-player" games taking turns banking. And what if your friends didn't want to play? Then there were people, sometimes traveling, sometimes not so much, who offered anyone to play with them. They would bank the games - hazard, tarot, 21, you name it (faro was a relatively short-term fad), as well as offer games of skill (there's a lot more there than poker!) There haven't always been bookmakers for everything either, and professional gamblers could offer people to make bets of their choice, offering less than true odds.
In games of skill, it's pretty straightforward - a pro can easily outplay amateurs. In games of luck, there was no particular distinction between a banking and a non-banking player, and both would be considered gambling. The term applied to games of skill as well, BTW, as long as money and an element of chance were involved. Since the bank has an advantage, a player who always banks could live on it, being a professional gambler.
Modern APs are a phenomenon distinct from professional gamblers in the traditional sense, but the latter still exist in countries where gambling isn't legal. A poker player regularly organizing home games can be considered a professional gambler in that sense as well. Making +EV bets with other people is also a pro-gambler activity, but bookmakers have made it rare (people will just go to a bookie, not seek you out).
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
February 10th, 2012 at 12:32:52 PM
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On a more serious note,most of the supposed professional gamblers I have known had another source of income that helped to disguise their losses. Or they had a special IN, like being able to get a nickle line from bookies laying off action, rented rooms to drivers when the trotting track was open, or most likely either took book or had rich suckers willing to gamble with them on golf, pool, etc.
Some just won at gambling the old fashioned way. CHEATING. If you have not been cheated playing poker in a live setting, you have not played. And online poker, well lets put it this way. All the cheats thieves and scumbags I knew from illegal games in Denver, before gambling was legalized in Colorado, disappeared from Blackhawk casino's for a few years. They all came back after online
poker crashed. You figure out what they were doing?
On another subject I am in Grand junction, CO. I referred to it as a one horse town when I moved here. I have since apologized.
To the horse. The one and only pool hall, that has OTB for the horses, has 14 tables. I have only seen 5 tables max played ever and no action whatsoever. Population is 80,000 including oil rig workers. But still! Is pool hustling dead everywhere ???
Some just won at gambling the old fashioned way. CHEATING. If you have not been cheated playing poker in a live setting, you have not played. And online poker, well lets put it this way. All the cheats thieves and scumbags I knew from illegal games in Denver, before gambling was legalized in Colorado, disappeared from Blackhawk casino's for a few years. They all came back after online
poker crashed. You figure out what they were doing?
On another subject I am in Grand junction, CO. I referred to it as a one horse town when I moved here. I have since apologized.
To the horse. The one and only pool hall, that has OTB for the horses, has 14 tables. I have only seen 5 tables max played ever and no action whatsoever. Population is 80,000 including oil rig workers. But still! Is pool hustling dead everywhere ???
February 10th, 2012 at 12:35:06 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 10th, 2012 at 12:36:38 PM
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" but bookmakers have made it rare. " AMEN Biggest thing a book who takes horse bets going for him is a mark will bet $200 on
EVEN money shot and $6 on a 50-1 shot. And if there is a bookmakers hall of fame, honorable menton has to go to Howard Cosell and Monday night football. What a bonanza that was, every chump doubling up. LOL
EVEN money shot and $6 on a 50-1 shot. And if there is a bookmakers hall of fame, honorable menton has to go to Howard Cosell and Monday night football. What a bonanza that was, every chump doubling up. LOL
February 10th, 2012 at 12:42:41 PM
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There are card counters and poker players out there living off of their profits. The big poker players are well-known, the smaller ones are known to exist but not exactly well-known. The card counters are few and far between and becoming fewer every day given deteriorating game conditions and increasing casino countermeasures. As these go into place, the full-time pro card counters move into other pursuits, some learn and play poker successfully (see above), others look for other advantage plays in the casino. Catching the hole card at BJ, finding a 3CP dealer who flashes one (or more) of their cards, handicapping sporting events and finding good lines, etc. Shuffle tracking and ace-sequencing in blackjack seem to be all the rage these days, but you have to find a beatable hand shuffle. There are advantage plays to be made out there, but they are changing every day. You have to be a very special kind of individual to find them, figure out what the edge is, and exploit them carefully so as not to burn the opportunity out.
To be a successful professional gambler using ANY of the opportunities out there, you have to have a huge bankroll in order to pull in a living wage and ride out the fluctuations. In that way it's kind of a catch-22. If you have that much money, and you're smart enough to use it correctly in the pro gambling world, you have the smarts to make (probably) even more money in a "straight" job or industry, and you probably already have, since you have the money to start with. So why start gambling full-time?
There are guys (and gals) who do it, probably because they enjoy being independent, being their own boss, and setting their own hours. Also they probably enjoy the lifestyle of a comped high-roller and like the challenge of beating the casinos at their own game(s).
Based on my reply, I chose the 1st option, but the 3rd one could be considered correct if you added an "etc." to the list of "onlys." Professional gamblers exist, and they are finding the possible player edges out there. If you are playing a game with a house edge and think you are a professional gambler, you are either a long-term loser (and probably a pathological liar) or a you are a statistical anomaly.
To be a successful professional gambler using ANY of the opportunities out there, you have to have a huge bankroll in order to pull in a living wage and ride out the fluctuations. In that way it's kind of a catch-22. If you have that much money, and you're smart enough to use it correctly in the pro gambling world, you have the smarts to make (probably) even more money in a "straight" job or industry, and you probably already have, since you have the money to start with. So why start gambling full-time?
There are guys (and gals) who do it, probably because they enjoy being independent, being their own boss, and setting their own hours. Also they probably enjoy the lifestyle of a comped high-roller and like the challenge of beating the casinos at their own game(s).
Based on my reply, I chose the 1st option, but the 3rd one could be considered correct if you added an "etc." to the list of "onlys." Professional gamblers exist, and they are finding the possible player edges out there. If you are playing a game with a house edge and think you are a professional gambler, you are either a long-term loser (and probably a pathological liar) or a you are a statistical anomaly.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 10th, 2012 at 12:52:33 PM
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"statistical anomaly. " == cheat in most cases
February 10th, 2012 at 1:44:44 PM
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Quote: buzzpaff"statistical anomaly. " == cheat in most cases
Sure, but I just meant that with all the billions of people in the world, some people out there are lifetime winners at gambling without cheating or advantage play. Some of them probably think they are "professional gamblers" when really they have just been extraordinarily lucky and are situated several standard deviations to the positive side of the bell curve.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 10th, 2012 at 2:11:23 PM
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" situated several standard deviations to the positive side of the bell curse. " A Fruedian slip, I asume. LOL
February 10th, 2012 at 2:50:22 PM
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Quote: buzzpaff" situated several standard deviations to the positive side of the bell curse. " A Fruedian slip, I asume. LOL
Whoopsadoodle! fixed, but your reply will live on as proof of my clumsy typing.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 10th, 2012 at 4:00:10 PM
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I've run into several people who claim to live off of gambling. I ask for proof in the form of a tax return, and I get excuse, after excuse, after excuse. Then later, I am inevitably hit up for either a loan, or a chance to buy into their play, in order to reduce variance.
One guy asked me to sponsor him as a horse in the WSOP circuit, as he claimed to be a tournament professional, and showed me video of him at the WSOP main event final table. I don't fall so easily, so when I asked for proof, in the form of a tax return, he said that he doesn't report his income because a lot of his winnings are cash (this is the most common excuse, and its a BS excuse). I told him that in a tournament, you can not hide your winnings, like you can in a cash game, thus he should have proof of his profitability in the form of a positive income flow, from his poker winnings, in his tax statements. This guy was none other than Chino Rheem, before the stories of him being an infamous stiff got out on 2+2(this guy is infamous, and now uses his final table appearance to bilk lots of people).
I can turn most games into a positive expectation game, or a break even game, or else I don't play. I'm really good at turning craps into a positive or neutral expectation game, but that only means taking away the house advantage, not winning enough to make a living off of the game.
Also, the mathematics of AP play do not support the proposition that the one can make a living off of gambling professionally. Take BJ for instance. I'm a pretty good card counter, and various programs, that I have used to train, have suggested that I have around a 1% edge overall. Let's assume that someone is much better than I, and has a 2% edge (a 1% edge is huge, a 2% edge is astronomically large). That means that the person must bet total action of $1 million dollars in order to win $20,000. Do you have any idea how hard it is to spread bet $1 million dollars? So if you want to make $100,000 a year, you need to bet total action of $5 million?!!
Anecdotal stories of professional gamblers are all over the place. I've never seen proof; everyone has excuses and anecdotes.
One guy asked me to sponsor him as a horse in the WSOP circuit, as he claimed to be a tournament professional, and showed me video of him at the WSOP main event final table. I don't fall so easily, so when I asked for proof, in the form of a tax return, he said that he doesn't report his income because a lot of his winnings are cash (this is the most common excuse, and its a BS excuse). I told him that in a tournament, you can not hide your winnings, like you can in a cash game, thus he should have proof of his profitability in the form of a positive income flow, from his poker winnings, in his tax statements. This guy was none other than Chino Rheem, before the stories of him being an infamous stiff got out on 2+2(this guy is infamous, and now uses his final table appearance to bilk lots of people).
I can turn most games into a positive expectation game, or a break even game, or else I don't play. I'm really good at turning craps into a positive or neutral expectation game, but that only means taking away the house advantage, not winning enough to make a living off of the game.
Also, the mathematics of AP play do not support the proposition that the one can make a living off of gambling professionally. Take BJ for instance. I'm a pretty good card counter, and various programs, that I have used to train, have suggested that I have around a 1% edge overall. Let's assume that someone is much better than I, and has a 2% edge (a 1% edge is huge, a 2% edge is astronomically large). That means that the person must bet total action of $1 million dollars in order to win $20,000. Do you have any idea how hard it is to spread bet $1 million dollars? So if you want to make $100,000 a year, you need to bet total action of $5 million?!!
Anecdotal stories of professional gamblers are all over the place. I've never seen proof; everyone has excuses and anecdotes.
February 10th, 2012 at 4:06:53 PM
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Reminds of a recent WSOP winner. He claims to have been a consistent winner in Hollywood high stakes games, often winning 6 figures in a single night. But of course he needed a backer to raise the 10 grand for WSOP. This all came to light when the backer had to sue him to get paid. Why does this remind me on Max Bialystock ??
February 10th, 2012 at 4:08:49 PM
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" Anecdotal stories of professional gamblers are all over the place. I've never seen proof; everyone has excuses and anecdotes. "
I assume for the sake of argument bookmaking is to be considered a noble profession and not associated with being a professional gambler ??
I assume for the sake of argument bookmaking is to be considered a noble profession and not associated with being a professional gambler ??
February 10th, 2012 at 4:09:49 PM
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Quote: klimate10I can turn most games into a positive expectation game, or a break even game,
If you can play a break even game, with a slight
progression you could easily support yourself.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 10th, 2012 at 4:20:45 PM
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I guess we should qualify the definition of professional gambler, because Sheldon Adelson and Steve Wynn are....
February 10th, 2012 at 4:21:14 PM
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I guess we should qualify the definition of professional gambler, because Sheldon Adelson and Steve Wynn are....
February 10th, 2012 at 4:24:58 PM
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Evan,
It cracks me up when I hear on ESPN or Cardplayer, "so and so has 5 million in career earnings!!!"
They leave out the fact that he probably has 6 million in career buy ins, 75%-100% of which probably came from a backer.
Those poker shows may as well be a Harrahs infomercial.
It cracks me up when I hear on ESPN or Cardplayer, "so and so has 5 million in career earnings!!!"
They leave out the fact that he probably has 6 million in career buy ins, 75%-100% of which probably came from a backer.
Those poker shows may as well be a Harrahs infomercial.
February 10th, 2012 at 4:37:04 PM
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Just remember:
Q: How do you get a professional poker player off of your porch?
A: Pay him for the pizza
Q: How do you get a professional poker player off of your porch?
A: Pay him for the pizza
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
February 10th, 2012 at 4:49:04 PM
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Quote: klimate10Also, the mathematics of AP play do not support the proposition that the one can make a living off of gambling professionally. Take BJ for instance. I'm a pretty good card counter, and various programs, that I have used to train, have suggested that I have around a 1% edge overall. Let's assume that someone is much better than I, and has a 2% edge (a 1% edge is huge, a 2% edge is astronomically large). That means that the person must bet total action of $1 million dollars in order to win $20,000. Do you have any idea how hard it is to spread bet $1 million dollars? So if you want to make $100,000 a year, you need to bet total action of $5 million?!!
Getting $5MM into action in a year isn't that hard. Assume you're a full-time high stakes BJ pro and you play year-round. We'll say 48 weeks to allow for vacation. 5 days a week, 4 hours a day of actual playing. So, 48*5*4=960 hours. Assume 100 hands/hour (you'll get more heads up, less with full tables). So 96,000 hands/year. $5000000/96000 hands = average of $52/hand. This is an average number, so it will fall somewhere in the middle of your spread. In theoretical world, this is easily doable, and sounds about right for a pro. You need a large bankroll to reduce the RoR.
But really, playing 4 hours a day seems pretty impossible when you need to travel a lot, scout for playable games, etc. But that $52/hand is incredibly low for most pros. Let's re-do the math with a more realistic 1.5% edge, but still aiming for a $100K salary, so now your total action for the year must total $6.7MM. Play 4 hours a day but only 35 weeks/year. So you go on some trips, play nearly full-time while you're out there, but take a lot of time off.
35*5*4*100=70000 hands. $6700000/70000 = $95.71 average bet/hand. Still totally within the realm of possibility.
Again, like I mentioned above, very few guys are doing this with straight counting nowadays, but the other advantage plays have similar edges.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 10th, 2012 at 5:04:34 PM
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A&8,
Probably. I can't argue with your math.
I don't claim to be a successful AP player. I only claim to be a failed professional gambler.
Im happy to break even.
Probably. I can't argue with your math.
I don't claim to be a successful AP player. I only claim to be a failed professional gambler.
Im happy to break even.
February 10th, 2012 at 5:11:24 PM
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What about all the dice setters who crowed how they made a killing?
Guys like Scoblete?
Why don't they weigh in on the subject?
*crickets*
Guys like Scoblete?
Why don't they weigh in on the subject?
*crickets*
"What, me worry?"
February 10th, 2012 at 5:39:17 PM
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MrV brings a question to mind.
Here is a question, perhaps someone, like the Wizard, can answer.
Most APers know that when flipping a coin, the physics of coin flipping suggests that the face up half of the coin is more likely to appear as a result of the flip.why does this not apply to dice? If i set the dice face up 3/3, shouldn't the 3,3 be more likely to appear? I understand the thing about the alligators, etc, but the alligators shouldn't randomize the dice anymore than a carpet bounce of a coin. I don't understand it.
See this
http://www.codingthewheel.com/archives/the-coin-flip-a-fundamentally-unfair-proposition
Here is a question, perhaps someone, like the Wizard, can answer.
Most APers know that when flipping a coin, the physics of coin flipping suggests that the face up half of the coin is more likely to appear as a result of the flip.why does this not apply to dice? If i set the dice face up 3/3, shouldn't the 3,3 be more likely to appear? I understand the thing about the alligators, etc, but the alligators shouldn't randomize the dice anymore than a carpet bounce of a coin. I don't understand it.
See this
http://www.codingthewheel.com/archives/the-coin-flip-a-fundamentally-unfair-proposition
February 10th, 2012 at 6:38:21 PM
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There's no evidence that dice precess, or if they do, that it is anywhere near the level of being relevant in view of the dice table. For starters, precession is based on rotation around a single axis, but most players just hurl the dice haphazardly, and purported dice influencers try not to have them rotate at all. So I'm not at all convinced that the physical model is even remotely the same. And I disagree with your equation between the carpet and the alligators -- I would suspect that the alligators do a much better job of randomizing a die than a carpet does a coin.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 11th, 2012 at 8:47:23 AM
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I know this is beside the point, but a 1% edge counting is a pretty poor proposition overall, unless particular circumstances warrant such a play. 2% with straight counting in a game with any sort of house edge is nearly impossible, but if I'm counting, I'm looking for a 1.5% edge. Again, special circumstances notwithstanding, I'll play a minimum of a 1:20 spread in shoe games, and will play only if I can get > 100 rounds per hour. Still, there's the problem of overall action. Let me assure you that it's not nearly as difficult as you think to wager large sums of money over time. I've wagered over $1M already this year, and yes, I have detailed records to support this (detailed records are a must if you file taxes as a gambler, as you'll eventually get audited at some point if you're making any significant income).Quote: klimate10Also, the mathematics of AP play do not support the proposition that the one can make a living off of gambling professionally. Take BJ for instance. I'm a pretty good card counter, and various programs, that I have used to train, have suggested that I have around a 1% edge overall. Let's assume that someone is much better than I, and has a 2% edge (a 1% edge is huge, a 2% edge is astronomically large). That means that the person must bet total action of $1 million dollars in order to win $20,000. Do you have any idea how hard it is to spread bet $1 million dollars? So if you want to make $100,000 a year, you need to bet total action of $5 million?!!
Now, I think the OP is curious about people that are truly professional gamblers, not APs, and the answer is sure, the do exist. Nick the Greek, Archie Karas — guys like this were/are sharp at times and occasionally played with an edge, but it was all a part of an overall gambling lifestyle, which included high-stakes dice sessions, ridiculous prop bets, "lucky streaks," etc. Although this type goes broke often, there are a few that are able to live like this for long periods of time (sometimes as a career!).
I think a good representation of this type is the character Sydney from the film "Hard Eight." He's quick, intelligent, and knows a few tricks, but at the end of the day he's just a gambler. He'll wager money just for the hell of it ("$2000 on hard eight"), but he won't be paying for a room later that night. He's a professional by definition, but he has little in common with an AP, who is not really a gambler at the end of the day.
February 11th, 2012 at 9:03:02 AM
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Quote: LonesomeGamblerI think a good representation of this type is the character Sydney from the film "Hard Eight." He's quick, intelligent, and knows a few tricks, but at the end of the day he's just a gambler. He'll wager money just for the hell of it ("$2000 on hard eight"), but he won't be paying for a room later that night. He's a professional by definition, but he has little in common with an AP, who is not really a gambler at the end of the day.
I think that's a good distinction. Someone who is truly a gambler can't keep it up for thousands or millions of small propositions. That's why you hear about these whale stories and giant infrequent bets -- it's the only way for their variance to stay ahead of the edge. It explains why I'm up over 15 years of dice playing, even though I bear no illusions that I'm playing with the edge. By definition, an AP is attempting *not* to gamble but rather to make thousands of small +EV investments and let their edge stay ahead of the variance.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 11th, 2012 at 10:24:53 AM
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Quote: klimate10It cracks me up when I hear on ESPN or Cardplayer, "so and so has 5 million in career earnings!!!"
They leave out the fact that he probably has 6 million in career buy ins, 75%-100% of which probably came from a backer.
And sometimes from multiple backers. ME buy-in is $10,000, but some unscrupulous players might piece themselves out to 20 different backers at $2000 each, raising $40,000, then buy-in and make sure he dumps out of the game before the money and keeps the remaining $30,000. He cannot risk finishing in the money and have to pay all those backers, so he makes up some bad-beat story as an excuse. He's assuming no more than 2 or 3 of the backers know each other or will ever be in the same room together to compare stories. This used to happen every year, but is near-impossible to do these days with all the poker forums like 2+2, and all the TV camera trolling the Amazon Room. But guys like Rheem who have been on TV can easily attract common folks with money who want to rub elbows with celebrity players. And Rheem has a criminal background so it wouldn't surprise me.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
February 11th, 2012 at 11:39:29 AM
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Some of the stories about Chino Rheem are legendary. When I first found out about him, I was dumb founded. I knew he was a dead beat and loser the moment he asked me for a loan, but some of the 2+2 stories are over the top. like the time he ordered the hookers, and then convinced the madam stake him into a tournament, but ended up just fleeing with her money, and not even buying in. *whether true or not, who knows.
Apparently, he's still able to fool people because despite being broke, somehow he got the cash for an EPL main event buy in. He wound up winning it, but had all his creditors waiting at the cage. Left him broke again, so I hear.
Another story of a broke professional who had MILLIONs in tournament winnings...TJ Cloutier. His stories are hilarious and illustrate the face of the of the professional gambler. Stories abound of TJ. Just say no if he asks for a $200 loan.
One point I would disagree with you Zippy. I think the 100%+ plus scam backing happens even more, now that the fields are humungous. Every year, i get requests to back. People play poker with me and know I am well to do. I don't keep track, but observationally, it appears i get more requests every year. I don't loan even a penny.
Apparently, he's still able to fool people because despite being broke, somehow he got the cash for an EPL main event buy in. He wound up winning it, but had all his creditors waiting at the cage. Left him broke again, so I hear.
Another story of a broke professional who had MILLIONs in tournament winnings...TJ Cloutier. His stories are hilarious and illustrate the face of the of the professional gambler. Stories abound of TJ. Just say no if he asks for a $200 loan.
One point I would disagree with you Zippy. I think the 100%+ plus scam backing happens even more, now that the fields are humungous. Every year, i get requests to back. People play poker with me and know I am well to do. I don't keep track, but observationally, it appears i get more requests every year. I don't loan even a penny.
February 11th, 2012 at 11:33:34 PM
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I am sure there are some professional gamblers that are out there. These are folks who are looking and finding AP somehow, whether it's VP, Sports, Blackjack counting, Craps dice setting (if possible), etc. I don't think the income would be very substantial however. For VP, for example, with your player's card and the right progressives you might be pulling at most 1.5% - or about $8 - $20 / hour.
There are other gamblers who think they are professional but are just plain lucky. It might the slot "artist" who got lucky with Megamillions or a few other jackpots and now claims to do well at slot machines. If might be the craps player who thinks they are influencing the dice but is just lucky. It might be a wannabe counter who found a string of good wins.
Oh yeah, and poker.
There are other gamblers who think they are professional but are just plain lucky. It might the slot "artist" who got lucky with Megamillions or a few other jackpots and now claims to do well at slot machines. If might be the craps player who thinks they are influencing the dice but is just lucky. It might be a wannabe counter who found a string of good wins.
Oh yeah, and poker.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
February 12th, 2012 at 9:09:33 PM
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For years, at our weekly poker group, I have always stated that professional poker players are like Big Foot. They only exist in stories. Everyone knows of someone who has seen one, but no one has any real proof of one.
It was also my hypothesis that guys like Phil Ivey and all the supposed "world's best" are either broke or up to something other than playing poker, such as cheating or stealing money. Everyone thought I was nuts because Phil Ivey is God. My hypothesis has always been that you can not make a living playing poker, but you can make a living looking like you play poker (ala Howard"Professor" Ledderer and Jesus Ferguson). Now this...seems like Phil Ivey and all the "top pros" are just dead beats. I ran across this story. And my suspicions over the years are even stronger:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/12741-poker-pros-ivey-lindgren-benyamine-and-flack-owe-full-tilt-millions
Name me one poker player who left a large estate for his family when he died. I'll bet you 3-1 that, if you can even name one, that I can name three who died flat broke. You can't lie about your bankroll after you are dead.
On an inflammatory side note, there are stories floating around that even the godfather of poker himself, Doyle Brunson, is nothing more than a poker cheat. I wouldn't doubt it.
The reason why this issue is near and dear to my heart is because I learned the hard way that there is no easy money. I was a gambling addict. I detest it when people make up shit that fuels young minds with false dreams and false hopes. I was one of these kids who chased the false dreams, as I did it all: poker (lost $), card counting ($2 an hour), day trading (efficient market hypothesis...the guys at CNBC are fraudsters...I'll bet any amount of money my dart throws, over a 5 year period, can perform just as well as their professional analysis, and even do better because I won't churn my stocks and I won't bear their management fees...Guy Adami can fuck himself). I bottomed out, nearly lost it all due to uncontrolled gambling, recovered, and now I'm a self made millionaire (but I'm not skilled enough in business to say that I found a way to make an easy penny).
Bottom line: the only way to make money is to study hard, work hard, and be smart. There is no easy money.
It was also my hypothesis that guys like Phil Ivey and all the supposed "world's best" are either broke or up to something other than playing poker, such as cheating or stealing money. Everyone thought I was nuts because Phil Ivey is God. My hypothesis has always been that you can not make a living playing poker, but you can make a living looking like you play poker (ala Howard"Professor" Ledderer and Jesus Ferguson). Now this...seems like Phil Ivey and all the "top pros" are just dead beats. I ran across this story. And my suspicions over the years are even stronger:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/12741-poker-pros-ivey-lindgren-benyamine-and-flack-owe-full-tilt-millions
Name me one poker player who left a large estate for his family when he died. I'll bet you 3-1 that, if you can even name one, that I can name three who died flat broke. You can't lie about your bankroll after you are dead.
On an inflammatory side note, there are stories floating around that even the godfather of poker himself, Doyle Brunson, is nothing more than a poker cheat. I wouldn't doubt it.
The reason why this issue is near and dear to my heart is because I learned the hard way that there is no easy money. I was a gambling addict. I detest it when people make up shit that fuels young minds with false dreams and false hopes. I was one of these kids who chased the false dreams, as I did it all: poker (lost $), card counting ($2 an hour), day trading (efficient market hypothesis...the guys at CNBC are fraudsters...I'll bet any amount of money my dart throws, over a 5 year period, can perform just as well as their professional analysis, and even do better because I won't churn my stocks and I won't bear their management fees...Guy Adami can fuck himself). I bottomed out, nearly lost it all due to uncontrolled gambling, recovered, and now I'm a self made millionaire (but I'm not skilled enough in business to say that I found a way to make an easy penny).
Bottom line: the only way to make money is to study hard, work hard, and be smart. There is no easy money.
February 12th, 2012 at 9:22:38 PM
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Quote: awakefield1983A professional gambler is loosely defined as one who makes a living gambling. I have heard people claim to be professional gamblers; under what circumstances can this be possible?
I'm assuming that a career choice such as this is only feasible if one is an expert card counter at blackjack, a superior poker player (poker room poker only), an excellent handicapper at the racetrack and sportsbook, or an extremely lucky individual.
This is kind of a two part question and the poll doesn't really answer it accurately...
Can somebody truly be a professional gambler who plays only casino games, and does not count cards at blackjack or visit the poker room?
Every other game has a house advantage that cannot be overcome...so how can this be possible?
"Every other game has a house advantage that cannot be overcome...so how can this be possible?" >>> I have asked (and argued) this point 100 times over.
All I get is >>
A) The game I play has a low H.E. (thats fine and all, it just means you'll lose slower than me, whoopie!)
B) I'm an advantage player so step aside sonny boy !!! I take in 30K a day and the casino cant do a damn thing about it.
(LMAO) Its all BS, at least I can admit it, its a fu***n grind walking into the casino. Every person has some FORM of H.E. against them. Keep in mind, the guys that say they have that 'advantage', you won't see one shred of proof on that, all talk.
Ken
February 12th, 2012 at 9:26:40 PM
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Didn't you just love it when a name player would get suspended from an on-line site for cheating, be forced to give up 1st place prize in a tournament, then a few years later is welcomed back and is that cards rooms paid spokesman and player LOL.
When you would get bounced from illegal rooms back in the day, you were personna no grata all over town. And bookies did not have to break legs to collect debts. I mean you could not buy your mistress a cadillac that way. You did much worse, passed the word. And the welcher could no get anybody to take his action till he paid you.
When you would get bounced from illegal rooms back in the day, you were personna no grata all over town. And bookies did not have to break legs to collect debts. I mean you could not buy your mistress a cadillac that way. You did much worse, passed the word. And the welcher could no get anybody to take his action till he paid you.
February 12th, 2012 at 9:30:25 PM
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" Although this type goes broke often, there are a few that are able to live like this for long periods of time " Nick the Greek was a paid shill for about 20 years , when he was betting petting with OPM and losing it LOL
February 12th, 2012 at 9:34:27 PM
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Quote: klimate10My hypothesis has always been that you can not make a living playing poker, but you can make a living looking like you play poker .
Thats what they do on the poker TV shows. They play with money
not their own, to get paid and get face time on TV. They make the
real money playing chumps in private games.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 12th, 2012 at 9:40:38 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThats what they do on the poker TV shows. They play with money
not their own, to get paid and get face time on TV. They make the
real money playing chumps in private games.
Lots of chumps with more money than brains. Amazing how many embezzlers are losing gamblers.
Often wondered if some players have too many backers, ala Max Bialystock .
February 12th, 2012 at 9:45:11 PM
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Quote: klimate10It was also my hypothesis that guys like Phil Ivey and all the supposed "world's best" are either broke or up to something other than playing poker, such as cheating or stealing money. Everyone thought I was nuts because Phil Ivey is God. My hypothesis has always been that you can not make a living playing poker, but you can make a living looking like you play poker (ala Howard"Professor" Ledderer and Jesus Ferguson). Now this...seems like Phil Ivey and all the "top pros" are just dead beats. I ran across this story. And my suspicions over the years are even stronger:
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/12741-poker-pros-ivey-lindgren-benyamine-and-flack-owe-full-tilt-mill
Wrong on very many levels.
Big poker players' debts are not like a commoner's debt to the bank that he is going to pay with his last scraps or go broke. They have a choice of what to do about these debts, and most will easily repay if they decide it's +EV for them. These players are smarter than to borrow money in a way that allows it to be forcibly collected with interest to boot, like marks do.
It's true that some of the big names, but Ivey isn't amongst them, are "broke". But the term "broke" for them doesn't mean what you think, squatting in an old building and feeding off food stamps. They still have a bigger house than yours, a better car than yours, still travel first class and get big suites. They are only broke in the sense that they don't have a few $50,000 buy-ins for big tourneys and high-stakes ring games lying around collecting dust.
Which is no problem, since they can just arrive with nothing but their pants and have people line up to stake them or lend some. In fact, it would often be stupid to bring your own money, since your own money is lost for good; but if you borrow and lose, you only have to pay back when you win big or collect in a tourney, and even then you don't pay everyone at once.
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February 12th, 2012 at 9:50:35 PM
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" Which is no problem, since they can just arrive with nothing but their pants and have people line up to stake them or lend some. In fact, it would often be stupid to bring your own money, since your own money is lost for good; but if you borrow and lose, you only have to pay back when you win big or collect in a tourney, and even then you don't pay everyone at once. "
Oh yeah, if you think you have an edge with chance of a great return, sell out your action. Talk about DUMB !
People don't lend you money. They want a piece of the action. As for paying everyone Jamie Gold had to be sued by his partner to collect.
Jamie claims he was a winner of 6 figures regularly in Hollywwod games, but could not come up with 10 grand for WSOP. BULLSHIT!
Oh yeah, if you think you have an edge with chance of a great return, sell out your action. Talk about DUMB !
People don't lend you money. They want a piece of the action. As for paying everyone Jamie Gold had to be sued by his partner to collect.
Jamie claims he was a winner of 6 figures regularly in Hollywwod games, but could not come up with 10 grand for WSOP. BULLSHIT!
February 12th, 2012 at 9:59:48 PM
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p90,
I understand your argument and I respect it.
But there is the issue of proof. What pro do you know who can produce five years of positive tax returns? I've heard every single excuse as to why they can't produce the returns. I have even offered free $5000 as a bet. I've never lost the bet, but I've been told by many people that, "wait, I know someone, do you have the 5g to pay?". Again, I've never met anyone who can show definitive proof in the form of a tax return for five years.
*the most common excuse is that they play cash, so they don't report their income so that they don't have to pay taxes. This is a bullshit excuse...ask any high roller, like myself, what happens when you try to cash out over 10k in a day.
I understand your argument and I respect it.
But there is the issue of proof. What pro do you know who can produce five years of positive tax returns? I've heard every single excuse as to why they can't produce the returns. I have even offered free $5000 as a bet. I've never lost the bet, but I've been told by many people that, "wait, I know someone, do you have the 5g to pay?". Again, I've never met anyone who can show definitive proof in the form of a tax return for five years.
*the most common excuse is that they play cash, so they don't report their income so that they don't have to pay taxes. This is a bullshit excuse...ask any high roller, like myself, what happens when you try to cash out over 10k in a day.
February 12th, 2012 at 10:03:19 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffOh yeah, if you think you have an edge with chance of a great return, sell out your action. Talk about DUMB !
A good player's ROI in tourneys is between 20% and 40%. I won't even get started about cash games. World-class players are better, but they have world-class opponents against them. Sure, you can win huge, but most times you won't - WSOP filled with fish way in over their heads only comes to shower gold once per year.
And 40% ROI is nothing to get cocky about. When you still get half the prize if you win and lose nothing if you don't, it's a great move to get staked.
Quote: buzzpaffPeople don't lend you money. They want a piece of the action. As for paying everyone Jamie Gold had to be sued by his partner to collect.
What a loser. Should have picked an easier mark. TJ Cloutier keeps borrowing for his every buy-in, and few ever get anything back.
Of course Cloutier is leaking to a bigger crook than himself.
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February 12th, 2012 at 10:07:14 PM
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' And 40% ROI is nothing to get cocky about. When you still get half the prize if you win and lose nothing if you don't, it's a great move to get staked. "
Anybody dumb enough to give up 40% ROI is an idiot !!!!!!
Anybody dumb enough to give up 40% ROI is an idiot !!!!!!
February 12th, 2012 at 10:09:29 PM
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Quote: klimate10What pro do you know who can produce five years of positive tax returns? I've heard every single excuse as to why they can't produce the returns. I have even offered free $5000 as a bet.
Tax returns are easily fabricated. You can print out the
forms for the last 5 years on your printer, put in any
info you like, and sign it. If you want to get fancy, sign
a fake CPA name and make up a fake rubber stamp or
something that looks official. Make copies on a cheezy
copier and you made 4mil in 2007. Its a bad bet, dude.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
February 12th, 2012 at 10:11:54 PM
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Not if you have a friend who can verify.
I have no such friend, so you're probably right. lol
I have no such friend, so you're probably right. lol
February 12th, 2012 at 10:18:46 PM
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" What pro do you know who can produce five years of positive tax returns? I've heard every single excuse as to why they can't produce the returns. I have even offered free $5000 as a bet."
Certain system sellers post the upper portion or first of their tax forms as proof of their winnings on horses picks, sport bets , etc. Of course it showed gross incomes and then gambling losses were shown on the other page. LOL
However I worked for a guy who could have shown you his tax return and won. that was in the 1950's no less. Henry Gordon testified ( summoned) before the Keauffer Committe on gambling. He was a bookmaker , but they did not nail him. Nor did the IRS. He was one of the biggest bookies on the East Coast and paid a guy to fill ou programs, pick up losing tickets etc at local racetrack. This was before the $600 on $2 bet at 300 to 1.
But all bookies are professional gamblers. And quite a few still make a good living at it today. And no doubt has some form of tax returns, but usually as a dummy business or somewthing.
Onc.somebody rats on you to the IRS you better be able to show how you support your lifestyle. And the world if full of rats.
Certain system sellers post the upper portion or first of their tax forms as proof of their winnings on horses picks, sport bets , etc. Of course it showed gross incomes and then gambling losses were shown on the other page. LOL
However I worked for a guy who could have shown you his tax return and won. that was in the 1950's no less. Henry Gordon testified ( summoned) before the Keauffer Committe on gambling. He was a bookmaker , but they did not nail him. Nor did the IRS. He was one of the biggest bookies on the East Coast and paid a guy to fill ou programs, pick up losing tickets etc at local racetrack. This was before the $600 on $2 bet at 300 to 1.
But all bookies are professional gamblers. And quite a few still make a good living at it today. And no doubt has some form of tax returns, but usually as a dummy business or somewthing.
Onc.somebody rats on you to the IRS you better be able to show how you support your lifestyle. And the world if full of rats.
February 12th, 2012 at 10:24:47 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffAnybody dumb enough to give up 40% ROI is an idiot !!!!!!
Buzzpaff, you don't give your whole winnings to the staker. You only give half. For famous players, can be much less than that. Top players can just borrow from marks who get overcome with the celebrity effect.
My online ROI has long been over 60%, because I'm playing softer games that I should (playing for the win, not for big ITM finishes - I'm not living off these prizes), I'll still be very happy if you stake me at 100/50 so I can go essentially freerolling.
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February 12th, 2012 at 10:25:55 PM
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Now you want to give up 60% ROI ? ROFLMAO
February 12th, 2012 at 10:34:18 PM
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Quote: buzzpaffNow you want to give up 60% ROI ? ROFLMAO
Sure. More than 60% even. I'll rather freeroll to win $1,000 (12% of the time) than plonk down $200 to win $2,000 (12% of the time).
Now that's not life-changing stakes. If I was playing at life-affecting stakes, it wouldn't even be a question for me whether to put down $5,000 to win $500,000 (2% of the time) or to risk nothing to win $250,000 (2% of the time), note how that is 100% ROI.
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February 12th, 2012 at 10:37:04 PM
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A few years ago, I came in third in the WSOP main event. I've made 4 final tables at the WPT. Came in second on all 4. Please email me for investment opportunities.
February 12th, 2012 at 10:42:41 PM
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Quote: P90Sure. More than 60% even. I'll rather freeroll to win $1,000 (12% of the time) than plonk down $200 to win $2,000 (12% of the time).
Now that's not life-changing stakes. If I was playing at life-affecting stakes, it wouldn't even be a question for me whether to put down $5,000 to win $500,000 (2% of the time) or to risk nothing to win $250,000 (2% of the time), note how that is 100% ROI.
Math is not my long suit but if you put up $200 each time and win $2000 12.5% of the time.
Let's see, you win one time in 8. $1600 in entry fees and win $2000. Don't look like 60% return to me.
And usually full backers want 80% of the purse or higher, unless you have a real chump. One willing to put out $2000 total for a chance of winning $1000.
