% Return vs. House Edge

Hello, why is it that in video poker, the payout is listed as a % return (such as 99.54% return for 9/6 Jacks or Better), while blackjack return is listed as the house edge (such as 0.6% house edge). Are they comparable (does 0.6% house edge = 99.4% return?).

Thanks.

Yes. It's just the industry conventions of table games operations, versus slot operations.

Quote: jamminbeh

Hello, why is it that in video poker, the payout is listed as a % return (such as 99.54% return for 9/6 Jacks or Better), while blackjack return is listed as the house edge (such as 0.6% house edge).

Historically a table game was viewed as a competition. But it's not an equal competition, because the Casino has a 51% chance of winning, (for instance), while a player has a 49% chance of winning. The House Edge is then 2%. Slot machines are not psychologically viewed as a "competition". You put your coins in the machine and on average a specified "coin out" is returned to the player in different size payouts. Mathematically, the presence of a casino dealer or operator doesn't really matter, because he is not making any more decisions than a slot machine, but psychologically it makes a difference.

Many players who see a machine that has not had a jackpot in a while think it is "due". Conversely, if you see a guy rolling the dice for a long time you think he is "hot". So you think the machine is a good bet because it has been consistently losing, while you think betting on the dice roller is a good bet because he hasn't lost in a while. Neither of them is logical, but most people think that way.

I think the terminology stems from the differing methods involved.

In slots, your money goes in and other money is returned. This is more obvious when you think about older coin machines rather than TITO. Therefore, the phrase "Return" is derrived from how much money is returned to you.

On tables, you place the bet which is either taken upon a loss or remains in your control after a win. IE If you take it down, the chips given back were the actual chips that were originally in your hand. The term "Edge" is derrived from how much money is taken from you.

This thread raises a question I have been wondering about.

If Vegas Star (and other brands) of video roulette are considered slot machines, then the payout per year or over some time period
would be governed by the regulations of the jurisdiction they were operating in.

Therefore, does this mean that the RNG (or probably PRNG) is able to make some kind of calculation to keep the payout of the
machine over time, within the legally required percentage. If the answer is yes, then the game is surely not random.

Does anyone know how this works.

Quote: Pando

If Vegas Star (and other brands) of video roulette are considered slot machines, then the payout per year or over some time period would be governed by the regulations of the jurisdiction they were operating in.

I didn't know there are any such regulations. AFAIK, you only need to program the machine to pay out N%, how much it actually pays out isn't important. Machines are certified at the manufacturer to follow the programming correctly, and you may install different approved chips to vary the paytable.

Quote: Pando

If Vegas Star (and other brands) of video roulette are considered slot machines, then the payout per year or over some time period
would be governed by the regulations of the jurisdiction they were operating in.

As I understand it, they are considered slot machines because they are machines, without dealers. And that classification is primarily for reporting purposes.

Also, machines that simulate real devices, be it cards, dice, roulette wheel, whatever, must be designed with the same probabilities as actual cards, dice, wheel.

Therefore, the probabilities of hittinh any number on the simulated wheel is still 1/38 (or 1/37 for single zero).

HOWEVER, look closely at the machine - particularly the paytable.

Many roulette machines pay less than the standard 35 to 1.

I checked the pay tables today and they are identical to any other roulette wheel.

Quote: Pando

This thread raises a question I have been wondering about.

If Vegas Star (and other brands) of video roulette are considered slot machines, then the payout per year or over some time period
would be governed by the regulations of the jurisdiction they were operating in.

Therefore, does this mean that the RNG (or probably PRNG) is able to make some kind of calculation to keep the payout of the
machine over time, within the legally required percentage. If the answer is yes, then the game is surely not random.

Does anyone know how this works.

In Nevada, video versions of live games have to have the same odds as the live games:

Quote: Regulation 14.040(2)(b)

2. Must use a random selection process to determine the game outcome of each play of a
game. The random selection process must meet 95 percent confidence limits using a standard
chi-squared test for goodness of fit.
(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical
probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the
mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other
gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game
outcome must be constant.

That means the RNG in a roulette game simply picks a number from [0..37] (where 37 = 00 or some equivalent mapping). It doesn't do any computations based on payout over time any more than slot machines do.

Quote: Pando

Therefore, does this mean that the RNG (or probably PRNG) is able to make some kind of calculation to keep the payout of the
machine over time, within the legally required percentage. If the answer is yes, then the game is surely not random.

So what's the legally required percentage? 94.7% ?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: Pando

Therefore, does this mean that the RNG (or probably PRNG) is able to make some kind of calculation to keep the payout of the
machine over time, within the legally required percentage. If the answer is yes, then the game is surely not random.

So what's the legally required percentage? 94.7% ?

The legally required percentage is 75% in NV, and 82.5% in NJ. All games except some in the airport lounge pay better than the legal requirement. The requirement is on theoretical payout, not on actual payout. The chipset with the lowest possible payout is always a little higher than the legal minimums to be on the safe side (i.e. the lowest chipset is usually set at 84%).

Those percentages are the legal minimum. The house is under no legal obligation to make a profit at all.

Here in WA state all the tribe casinos have a state required minimum of 75%. But they aren't obligated to release what they set their machines at, like other states........

I highly doubt there are any that are over 89%.