What Are Casino Carnival Games

Quote: fremont4ever

Faro used to be popular back when the world was in black and white.

Faro flourished for two centuries and faded away in large part due to its universal crookedness near the end. By 20th century the game was always rigged, you had to be a shill to leave a winner. Even then it took the game half a century to die.

Blackjack, Craps and Baccarat all date back at least half a millennium as highly popular games, with only minor and gradual changes along the way. Roulette is actually a relative newcomer due to relatively high-tech machinery involved, by 1700s standards.

So, of course mainstay games do change. Rigging Faro did eventually kill it, while technological advancement has led to the creation of Roulette. But they change at a much slower pace, over multiple generations.

Quote: Paigowdan

CSP and LIR were almost mainstays, too - essentially "Super" Carnival games that faded around 2000 as PGP and 3CP just kept increasing.

That's a very good way to put it.

Quote: Paigowdan

People just turned on that game [DW], along with CSP and LIR for PGP, 3CP, and the newer 4-card poker games and UTH.

Which illustrates the point I'm making in this post very well. Players got tired or bored with the game, went away, and moved to other games. Completely different in terms of gameplay, and all sharing a common theme playing on the popularity of poker proper.

In contrast, mainstay games (from players' perspective, not casinos') are not mutually replaceable. If you remove Blackjack, its players won't flock to the craps table, they will follow their game across state lines if need be; if you ban Roulette, they'll make a wheel with cards laid out on it; and Baccarat aficionados didn't even take its EZ version.
The only way traditional games were displaced is across generations - the older game's audience eventually dying out.

If we still see 3CP, PGP or UTH popular in 25 years, played by our children, with developed subcultures, superstitions, shelves filled with books on beating them and fiercely committed audiences, then they will have what it takes to actually become new mainstay games. If not, they will stay in history as superior carnival games that were well ahead of the field; but their field.

Quote: P90

If we still see 3CP, PGP or UTH popular in 25 years, played by our children, with developed subcultures, superstitions, shelves filled with books on beating them and fiercely committed audiences, then they will have what it takes to actually become new mainstay games. If not, they will stay in history as superior carnival games that were well ahead of the field; but their field.

I think 3CP, PGP, and UTH all have the staying power to make a long-term run. CSP is almost dead, but not quite, and LIR has been replaced by the white-hot Mississippi Stud, for now.

Pai Gow Poker is near mainstream, but given a low number of installs in some key areas (mainly upstate NY, IN and IL) I wonder if it can attain 3CP status. I'd say the same about Ultimate, but it still has a long way to go, plus it has true "competition" from Texas Hold Em Bonus (Not really competition, as it's the same company, but you get the idea).

One thing all these games have in common is that their existence is contingent on the popularity of actual poker. So far it shows no signs of fading, and the level of play, especially online, has gone up an order of magnitude in the last few years.

But should something cause a major fall of poker, be it legislative, religious or just replacement by something else, 3CP, PGP and UTH are goners. UTH/THB are especially vulnerable, since they make such a big deal out of playing the theme. They are still derivative games, not independent ways to gamble. PGP, being a switching game using poker rankings, is likely to be displaced by a switching game using whatever becomes more popular. If China takes over the world (not necessarily in the literal sense)... maybe even by Pai Gow.

Quote: Tiltpoul

I think 3CP, PGP, and UTH all have the staying power to make a long-term run. CSP is almost dead, but not quite, and LIR has been replaced by the white-hot Mississippi Stud, for now.

Pai Gow Poker is near mainstream, but given a low number of installs in some key areas (mainly upstate NY, IN and IL) I wonder if it can attain 3CP status. I'd say the same about Ultimate, but it still has a long way to go, plus it has true "competition" from Texas Hold Em Bonus (Not really competition, as it's the same company, but you get the idea).

PGP has 2,000 U.S. tables, and 3CP has 1,500 world-wide. But it's that PGP is "clumped" in certain areas (West Coast, East Coast) while 3CP is uniform: Many casinos have one 3CP table, but almost all serious houses have it. With PGP, some casinos have 4 or more tables, while many have none. It is interesting to note that in some areas (like LV), a 15-table house averages two PGP tables: Cannery Group's 50 or so tables has nine PGP, all EZ Pai Gow; In Missouri, an 80 table casino may have two or three, and a 15-table casino, none.

To P90, I don't know if a culture is needed to support a particular game: Most BJ, Craps, and Roulette players "simply" play. You can be a devotee without being an aficionado, though it helps. I have an extensive gambling library, and play only craps and PGP, (and Baccarat and 3CP when I don't want to think), but do a lot of BJ and Bac projects as gaming work. The list of the major games change over time.
Modern Craps was really developed and codified by one man, John H. Winn, a gaming exec and gaming supply/dicemaker when gambling was nominally illegal. He came up with the modern layout of pass/don't pass, DC, Field bet, lay bets, developed and fleshed out the place and come bets, etc. It's his game design (circa 1910) that was the basis for modern craps. Patents then where limited to agricultural and factory processes.

Again, we need to do a "stats and charts" project on this: what games where hot or not over time, what did the table games pit look like over time? P90, Dave, Stacy, Paco - Interested??

Quote: Paigowdan

With PGP, some casinos have 4 or more tables, while many have none.

I wonder if those that have none, are reluctant to put it in because they don't want to screw around with those damn quarters. (hint, hint, nudge, nudge.)

Quote: Paigowdan

Again, we need to do a "stats and charts" project on this: what games where hot or not over time, what did the table games pit look like over time? P90, Dave, Stacy, Paco - Interested??

I assume you mean me.

Sure, I'm interested, although I have no data I can add to the project. I wouldn't mind taking whatever data is available and attempting to make a cool / fancy chart out of it...

---

Faro died off because it was impossible to find a fair game. As I understand it, that was because it had an extremely low house edge, and cheating was the only way for the house to make money.

If it were modified to have a more reasonable edge and no cheating, and were introduced today, it would be considered a carnival game.

It would make a good historical project, so I'd look up David Schwartz at UNLV for this. He may already have meaningful information. For proprietary games, Shuffle Master is publicly-traded and their sales data should be in annual reports. I remember reading about LIR installs by market during its heyday.

Quote: Paigowdan

PGP has 2,000 U.S. tables, and 3CP has 1,500 world-wide. But it's that PGP is "clumped" in certain areas (West Coast, East Coast) while 3CP is uniform: Many casinos have one 3CP table, but almost all serious houses have it. With PGP, some casinos have 4 or more tables, while many have none. It is interesting to note that in some areas (like LV), a 15-table house averages two PGP tables: Cannery Group's 50 or so tables has nine PGP, all EZ Pai Gow; In Missouri, an 80 table casino may have two or three, and a 15-table casino, none.

I find that to be true... Iowa is usually PGP friendly, on both sides of the state especially. Missouri has picked up on the game, especially in the Kansas City market. The Indiana casinos in Chicago have a high Asian population, thus it's got a following there. However, Tunica has few tables outside Horseshoe and Harrah's. Southern Indiana has few installs (Hollywood-1, Belterra-1, Horseshoe-2 and Rising Star-0) despite relatively large casinos. And the game is nearly nonexistant in IL, with the few casinos offering it. WV has a few installs, but the tables there are thin too.

PA and Atlantic City has a lot of tables.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Faro died off because it was impossible to find a fair game. As I understand it, that was because it had an extremely low house edge, and cheating was the only way for the house to make money.

It's not that low actually. House wins each time there is a pair. The probability of that is variable: it's 3/(n<=50) from the first round, then 2/(n<=48) after one card you're betting on is out, then 1/(n<=46), and finally 0. A full math analysis should be relatively simple, but still somewhat time-consuming.

I'm not sure if I'm off with this calculation, but, playing through the deck, the house should on the average make pairs 3/51*23=1.35 times, winning 1.35 of a bet on an even, maintained 26-bet field. That is if all bets are placed from the start. It's topped off with a 17% HA turn bet. For a realistic scenario, Wizard's calculations suggest 2% HA per bet resolved.

That is a larger HA than Hazard/Craps (I still consider it fundamentally the same game, craps just adds a ton of side bets) and more than classic SD Blackjack even with simple strategy. There is no potential for straight-up advantage play, although one can make some bets with 0 edge late in the game. But "comps milking" could be prevented, not to mention there weren't any comps back in the day.

The edge is only low if you count it per deal, but that's like counting it in hazard/craps per dice roll rather than per bet. Faro is a very fast game too.
So the more likely reason for rigging Faro is that it's just so easy to rig. You don't need loaded dice, stripped shoes, biased wheels, all you need is to do is place cards such as to create more pairs than usual and do an imperfect shuffle. No cost and minimal skill.

BTW, while at that: http://www.gleeson.us/faro/game

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Carnival games are games that have a high house edge.

Quote: cardcounter

Carnival games are games that have a high house edge.

No.
Carnival games are "one-off," or new or "niche" games that are non-standard offerings - regardless - and with nothing to do - with the house edge.
Two Card high = 1.3% H.E.
Extreme 21 = 0.6% to 1.16% HE
etc...

Quote: Paigowdan

Carnival games are games that have a high house edge.

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
Carnival games are "one-off," or new or "niche" games that are non-standard offerings - regardless - and with nothing to do - with the house edge.
Two Card high = 1.3% H.E.
Extreme 21 = 0.6% to 1.16% HE
etc...

While a blanket statement that all carnival games have a high house edge is incorrect, it is fair to state that carnival games tend to have a much higher house edge than more traditional card games like Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, or Baccarat.

Let's look at the house edges on some of the more popular carnival games:
Caribbean Stud = 5.2%
Mississippi Stud = 4.9%
Three Card Poker = 3.4%
Four Card Poker = 2.8%
Texas Shootout = 2.6%
Ultimate Texas Hold'em = 2.2%
Texas Hold'em Bonus = 2.0%

When coming across a new carnival game, it's generally safe to assume that it's a rip-off game with a 2-5% house edge until you've seen analysis which suggests otherwise.

yes, indeed, this is generally true.
It is not the defining criterion of carnival games - but a very safe assumption about the older carnival games.
But for table games to have a 2.9% HE or less, it's not too bad.
The newer carnival/side game/new idea game/etc - the house edge is generally lower, as game designers want to neither burn out the players or burn the house, either way. The "Mike Shackleford/WOO" review effect on game examination is a big influence.

Quote: Paigowdan

It would be interesting to see a chart of the above mentioned games' ascendancy stats in a line graph over time. One chart for $ Revenue, the other for total installs.

This is a subject that fascinated me too, and though I didn't do all a full analysis, I did look at Three Card Poker (TCP), Caribbean Stud Poker (CSP), and Let It Ride (LIR) tables in Nevada. Here's what I found:



I owe a huge thank you to the UNLV Center for Gaming Research for the figures. All yearly figures from June of that year. A few quick observations and notes:

* Before 1995, both CSP and LIR were included in the "other games"
* Before 2002, any TCP tables were included in "other games"
* Pai Gow Poker (PGP) had 282 tables in 2011, and 293 in 2004. Interesting.
* My supposition that CSP and LIR were more popular at their peaks than TCP is now looks to be false. There were only 231 "other" games in 1994.
* LIR seems to be fading a little at a time; no telling how long that will continue
* It seems to be a waste to list CSP separately at this point; there are 279 "other" table games and several of them must have more than eight tables

Its interesting the other two games went
back and forth and CSP had a steady decline
since 1995. I played it once and I think my
comment was 'What a ripoff.'

Quote: CowPieDon

Quote: Paigowdan

Carnival games are games that have a high house edge.

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
Carnival games are "one-off," or new or "niche" games that are non-standard offerings - regardless - and with nothing to do - with the house edge.
Two Card high = 1.3% H.E.
Extreme 21 = 0.6% to 1.16% HE
etc...

While a blanket statement that all carnival games have a high house edge is incorrect, it is fair to state that carnival games tend to have a much higher house edge than more traditional card games like Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker, or Baccarat.

No, it's not. I WORK reviewing and recommending new games, and the days of high house edge "hit-and run" ripoff games are gone. No one will put out a new game to see it get trashed or killed or fade away. The lessons of CSP/LIR are in place. We KNOW that the general public is generally ignorant, and so just automatically assumes that new games are ripoffs ( - and you're a typical case in point with your comment). As a result, we have to place fairer games that play well (fair house edge, high hit frequency), so that the new games will have a chance at some popularity and longevity. And if Three-Card poker were a ripoff, instead of a game that's fun to play can where players can win, it would have been gone by now, pretty much like CSP and LIR.

Quote: CowPieDon

Let's look at the house edges on some of the more popular carnival games:
Caribbean Stud = 5.2%
Mississippi Stud = 4.9%
Three Card Poker = 3.4%
Four Card Poker = 2.8%
Texas Shootout = 2.6%
Ultimate Texas Hold'em = 2.2%
Texas Hold'em Bonus = 2.0%

Most of these game provide raise opportunities where the element of risk helps the player. Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, Four Card Poker, and Texas hold 'em bonus have HE's of < 3%. Blackjack wouldn't be released today with house edge parameters of < 2%, and so we are seeing people play and patronize 6:5, etc.

Quote: CowPieDon

When coming across a new carnival game, it's generally safe to assume that it's a rip-off game with a 2-5% house edge until you've seen analysis which suggests otherwise.

No.
When coming across a new carnival game, it's generally safe to review the game on WOO, and to sample the game for yourself, and consider the effect of element of risk - so that you can really know what you're talking about instead of making blanket statements, like "tend to have much higher house edges..." and wrongly applying statements to games that don't have such characteristics. Know for sure before opening the mouth, as they say, and admit you don't know WHEN you don't know.

If you look at all games and assume that 2% or 'x'% to be the "ripoff point," then you failing to see such things as the paytable payouts, the element of risk, and a host of other factors, along with the fact that if any game is a ripoff because it has a higher house edge than optimal BJ, then optimal BJ would the the ONLY table game that is considered viable. This is not the case. If a game is successful and popular, it is so for some very researched reasons.

What I've gleaned from this thread:

Let It Ride was apparently dubbed Let It Die by bored dealers and so it seems to have drifted off the charts.
CSP seems to have been somewhat volatile but less popular.

Faro was oft rigged and might even have been at one time almost universally rigged but remained being played due mainly to simplicity and lack of alternatives.

Craps had staying power and really boomed when it became Banked Craps rather than Craps.

I think the Faro data is telling. Desperation may have sustained Faro. And a customer base that is desperate will support anything if it really has to. Most gambling halls cater to gamblers, the Evil Empire caters to newbies, half-drunks, would-be gamblers and tourists.

I would say that Indian Casino main job is to educate new gamblers ... and they dont seem to be doing it.

Also I think Mississippi Stub has taken over for LIR to some extent. I realize it has different rules, but the jist of the game is the same.

And my hit gambling threads keep coming. This
one got 68 replies and 12,000 hits. Still interesting.

Quote: EvenBob

And my hit gambling threads keep coming. This
one got 68 replies and 12,000 hits. Still interesting.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/28330-bad-casino-giveaways/


Bad casino giveaways?
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Thread starter: Nathan by Nathan
Aug 24, 2017 at 5:41 PM


And it's not even a year old.

A recent one she started has 5 stars.

Black Jackpot