Red Flag Comp 'Cheats'

Quote: Tiltpoul

However, EvenBob, most groceries stores will swipe their card for you.

Well, Spartan stores do not and they won't let
an employee use theirs on your checkout either.

EvenBob: Casinos are for profit companies. So what they advertise that they love winners? Axe Body Spray is somehow allowed to advertise that their products increase your success with women. I've never seen a company advertise that they're just trying to increase their bottom line. All companies also know their most profitable demographic and market to them accordingly. Players who play at the house edge or worse are profitable and so they get the highest reinvestment. How many toy commercials market to adults?

As for "you guys aren't the casinos", the front-line employees definitely are the casino in terms of providing the "we love winners" experience. I've been to plenty of casinos where the dealers are happy to see me win. In fact they earn the majority of their pay from tokes so they have every reason to want the typical player to win. The floorpeople usually aren't involved in any sort of profit sharing so they have no reason to want to see anyone lose either.

The ability to track slots players has definitely skyrocketed in the past decade with advances in slots tracking technology. This isn't necessarily true on the tables, though. The floor still writes or types his estimate of your average bet onto a rating card or into a computer. The vast, vast majority of casinos have no way to reliably track your average bet or your skill that they didn't have in the '60s. The four products that did provide some or all of that functionality have all failed miserably. What advances their have been in comp targeting are mutually beneficial to the player and the casino. The casino knows when their rated patrons like to play and what games they like to play so as to better target the reinvestment dollars. This means the average player gets a mailer he might actually want.

If you refuse to play with a card the only thing you're accomplishing is denying yourself the upwards of 30% reinvestment. Assuming you use your comp dollars towards something you'd like anyways that basically knocks 30% off the edge of the game. Hell, if you play somewhere long enough they probably already have an entry for you in their database, name or not, just so they can accurately track you over time.

Lastly, as for the supermarket thing, I agree that I hate having all my purchases logged into some master database with hardly any benefit. Most major chains, at least all the ones I've been to, Albertsons, Vons, Kroger, etc., have a keypad where you an type in the phone number linked to your rewards card. I've tried (my area code) 867-5309 in Albertsons and Kroger and have had it go through at both. That way you get your discounts without the hassle.

Quote: PopCan

Assuming you use your comp dollars towards something you'd like anyways that basically knocks 30% off the edge of the game. .

The 30% is theoretical. If they give you a room, that
room cost them a fraction of the 30% in actual money.
Ditto for slot points, or a buffet, or a show, or whatever
comp they give you. They never give you back $30
cash for every $100 you lose. Its more like the equivalent
of $10.

Although the article may be old, but does it happen in today’s world, absolutely.

My friend is an excellent Video Poker player here in Las Vegas and he has been “FIRED” or put in other words, not worthy of any COMPS.
His earlier attempts to find out the reason at the players reward club was met with “ I don‘t know why your comps stopped.”
After several attempts to get to the bottom of this, he realized they didn’t really want his business. He was too good for them.

I, too, have lost favor at some casino’s playing craps, my free bet comps have become non-existent. I suspect my rating comps have taken a nose dive as well.
I’ve also talked to others about this similar situation and I have come to the conclusion the RED flag policy is still alive and used at some casino’s

Back to the OP for a moment. I agree that the OP article is 4 to 6 years old, and it coincides with my retirement from 21 play. The reasons this manager gave is consistent with my own observations. Suddenly, I was no longer getting comped at 21, and getting pennies at Craps. I was what one might call "a more consistant small winner". About the only games I could play without a coomp-card was VP and craps. The VP generally wasn't worth it at 25c back then.Mohegan Sun, OTOH, comped my action at about 0.1%, and seemed not to worry about my play. HOWEVER, Mohegan Sun at that time was being played by a group of very skilled AP's in Hit and Run Style. Celphones were always going off. I decided not to look like an AP mark, and retired from there also.

OT: One of the big advantages of A5 is that an increased bet is a flag that Blackjacks or Aces are favored, in spite of "the count" being negative. Anyone possessing this knowledge could mark a team of players. Bet four as a signal to play, when reduced to one, time to leave. /OT

I kinda believe the method described in Karoul's article has been universally used by most major casinos

Can you blame the casinos? If you were giving out the comps, would you give more to the player who plays solid basic strategy at 3:2 blackjack, plays craps with the pass/come with odds, or to the one that splits 5's, doubles a 12 against a dealer 20, and plays the hardways and one roll bets?

Actually, yes I will.
There's no way the casino is losing money on comps, provided:
1.) Everyone gets a minimum... lets say .001x Action.
2.) Losers get more. Just less than their given, fitting the model about the base of the pyramid supporting the top.
3.) No one gets none.
4.) If any game not have comps then its 21... no one gets any, the Casino sweats the game only.

Quote: 98Clubs

Actually, yes I will.
There's no way the casino is losing money on comps, provided:
1.) Everyone gets a minimum... lets say .001x Action.
2.) Losers get more. Just less than their given, fitting the model about the base of the pyramid supporting the top.
3.) No one gets none.
4.) If any game not have comps then its 21... no one gets any, the Casino sweats the game only.

This assumes that comps are awarded proportionately to skill level. That's just not true. Your average floor supervisor watching 42 players on a weekend night while making comp decisions, filling his tables, watching his dealers for errors, chatting up the guests, and watching the game on TV has no idea what skill level any of those 42 are playing at. A bad BJ player will get the same comp reinvestment as a basic strategy player.

1.) The comp reinvestment ranges from 10-40% depending on the casino and their ratio of hard (cash value) and soft (casino amenities) comps. This would be about 0.0025 times their wager times average hands per hour times average bet. .001x is actually a pretty good estimate on the low end.

2.) Losers don't get more, see the first paragraph. If anything, rebates on a short-term loss, say a casino will give 5% in comps back on a short term loss regardless of action, has more to do with variance than with skill level.

3.) "No one gets none" works against your argument. Even the most skilled players, like 101% payback video poker players, get something.

4.) BJ is the single best game for comps outside of advantage video poker. It's one of the few games where you can lower your edge yet still receive the comp rate a bad player gets. If the average player gets 30% of his 1.5% EV and you're playing at 0.5% then you're getting a 90% reinvestment. If you're counting with a small enough spread to break even then the comp reinvestment means a profit for you and a loss for the casino.

For a single given player the casino can absolutely lose money on comps. Overall they absolutely don't. I don't really mean to sound argumentative; if you mean the casino isn't losing money on comps overall then of course you're correct.

Quote: PopCan

]For a single given player the casino can absolutely lose money on comps. Overall they absolutely don't. I don't really mean to sound argumentative; if you mean the casino isn't losing money on comps overall then of course you're correct.

I think there also has to be a distinction between hard comps, soft comps and the in-betweens. If I'm asking for a car or cash back, then absolutely the play should reflect that, and if I'm an advantage player, the casino should take that into account. However, a buffet is a fixed cost for a casino; they are going to prepare a certain amount of food every evening, and one person (outside an AP eater) will not change the outcome drastically. In this case, it shouldn't really matter how much you're playing, but that you are playing.

The in-between area includes rooms and restaurant comps that aren't to a buffet. A room is a fixed cost, kind of, but you would have to pay maids and the amenities, plus the potential loss of another player wanting that room at the last minute. In that case, APs shouldn't get special treatment, but they shouldn't be brushed aside either. Restaurant comps are hard costs, but the prices are so inflated, it's easy to write a small amount and still manage to make money on the whole deal (or at least break even). Again, these situations are fine lines.

To me, who plays low HE games and usually doesn't get comped a ton but enough to make it fun, a buffet and room is about all I request. Anything more is nice, but not necessary.

AP eater...
I love it

Delete

Delete

I can almost guarantee the casino I go to in Reno is losing money on comps...i know right off the bat, 13 people who stay 4/7 nights a week in the hotel/eat on their comp dollars, and enjoy the VIP events etc...of course this is all "soft comps" because they wouldn't have sold those hotel rooms anyway...they would have still prepared that same food in the buffet, and these 13 people will have an expected loss of probably $100 per day...so in the end the casino really DOES make a little money, and we as the players feel like we're getting good value for our money...

Though the author of the article had the luxury of working at Foxwoods,
Which along with Mohegan sun has the corner on the casino market in CT,
Most casinos face enough competition that they will still have to offer comps to remain competitive.
In spite of the collusion which obviously goes on in the industry,
The player has far too many options in most markets.

That is VERY true. They are King (not for long) in Boston and Providence, and CT. In coming years, they WILL have to compete. And they have over-built believe it or not. MGM-Grand was a bad bet on the Customers. IMHO both tribes should have allowed the Schagticoke's their Casino in Kent/Cornwall (NW CT) rather than be over-built. At least if the NW fell on hard-times, a friendly buy-out would have ensued. /MHO

You should have a right to privacy and the right to be a number and change your number any time you want.

I want to become a corporation called Robert California.

What I hate is when casinos don't respect the public in general as shown in this thread and then fake poverty asking for law changes and tax breaks.

Quote: PopCan

EvenBob: Casinos are for profit companies. So what they advertise that they love winners? Axe Body Spray is somehow allowed to advertise that their products increase your success with women. I've never seen a company advertise that they're just trying to increase their bottom line. All companies also know their most profitable demographic and market to them accordingly. Players who play at the house edge or worse are profitable and so they get the highest reinvestment. How many toy commercials market to adults?

As for "you guys aren't the casinos", the front-line employees definitely are the casino in terms of providing the "we love winners" experience. I've been to plenty of casinos where the dealers are happy to see me win. In fact they earn the majority of their pay from tokes so they have every reason to want the typical player to win. The floorpeople usually aren't involved in any sort of profit sharing so they have no reason to want to see anyone lose either.

The ability to track slots players has definitely skyrocketed in the past decade with advances in slots tracking technology. This isn't necessarily true on the tables, though. The floor still writes or types his estimate of your average bet onto a rating card or into a computer. The vast, vast majority of casinos have no way to reliably track your average bet or your skill that they didn't have in the '60s. The four products that did provide some or all of that functionality have all failed miserably. What advances their have been in comp targeting are mutually beneficial to the player and the casino. The casino knows when their rated patrons like to play and what games they like to play so as to better target the reinvestment dollars. This means the average player gets a mailer he might actually want.

If you refuse to play with a card the only thing you're accomplishing is denying yourself the upwards of 30% reinvestment. Assuming you use your comp dollars towards something you'd like anyways that basically knocks 30% off the edge of the game. Hell, if you play somewhere long enough they probably already have an entry for you in their database, name or not, just so they can accurately track you over time.

Lastly, as for the supermarket thing, I agree that I hate having all my purchases logged into some master database with hardly any benefit. Most major chains, at least all the ones I've been to, Albertsons, Vons, Kroger, etc., have a keypad where you an type in the phone number linked to your rewards card. I've tried (my area code) 867-5309 in Albertsons and Kroger and have had it go through at both. That way you get your discounts without the hassle.

Popcan, thank you, - a rational, level-headed response that is appreciated.

It's amazing how people at a gambling forum, and who are casino patrons, just bitch and moan about conspiracies of the casinos they patronize, it's a bit over the top.

Casinos trust the math, and know and accept that there is, as it should be, a mix of winners and losers, and without sweating the money.

Quote: Paigowdan

Popcan, thank you, - a rational, level-headed response that is appreciated.

Dan, that post from Popcan is a year and half old,
has he even been here since then?

Quote: EvenBob

Dan, that post from Popcan is a year and half old,
has he even been here since then?

Bob, it's:
1. Timeless, and;
2. needed to be said and heard often.