smoothgrh
smoothgrh
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November 8th, 2011 at 1:29:47 PM permalink
There's a news article about an upcoming casino poker slot machine: http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2011/nov/04/new-poker-slot-machine-simulates-human-brain/

It's renewed my curiosity about why some (many?) poker video games are biased in that, the computer players seem to know what cards will be on the board.

The Apple iPod and iPhone apps are notorious for this, and the World Poker Tour plug 'n play game is also to a lesser extent. The AI computer players seem to "know" when to play crappy cards in critical situations, knowing they will make a hand with the board. Example: playing 9-3 offsuit when the board turns the hand into trip 3s, or something similar.

Is there a simple programming reason for this? Is it difficult to "partition" the computer's play from the cards that will be dealt? To this programming layman, it doesn't seem like there should be difficulty in this.

Anyone have insight into this phenomenon?

(I'm certain the slot machine poker AI will not have this problem and/or advantage!)
DJTeddyBear
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November 8th, 2011 at 1:38:31 PM permalink
I have a good deal of programming experience, although little in gaming and none in artificial intelligence.

But I can say this: You'd have to deliberately give the AI the ability to see other people's hole cards and/or the cards to be dealt.

Quite frankly, I think that most of the Poker AI is too stupid to play well. They just experience dumb luck the same way certain idiots at the poker table experience it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
smoothgrh
smoothgrh
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Mission146
June 17th, 2021 at 10:33:48 AM permalink
Here are some examples of the "gaffed" nature of the World Poker Tour Plug 'n Play game reviewed by Mission146.

In this hand, I was short stacked so from UTG, I went all-in with A-6. The NPC that was next to act went all-in with Q-3os despite having 4 players yet to act. The small blind NPC called with A-J. As is unsurprising for this game, a queen and a 3 appeared on the flop. I used to think there was something wrong with the "partitioning" of computer hands and the cards that appear on the board, but as pointed out in the article, the game is gaffed.



But NPC players don't just do this to you, brave adventurer. They suck out against other NPCs all the time.



This results in a frequent situation in which after one player goes all-in, three others also go all-in and nearly every time, each NPC gets a piece of the board.

So the game becomes a test of patience and survival. Let the other players knock each other out. But even if you have the nuts on the flop, it might not be enough to get you the win.



It's maddening what NPCs do, but I like everything else about the game that I'm willing to keep coming back. I realize that I'm probably not like most poker players.

A few quick observations:
 I enjoy the minimal sounds. They add just the right touch for the experience. I love the "chair" sound when a new player joins the table.
  I find it pleasing how the backgrounds change depending on being at "poker night" versus a main event. It's a cheap representation of excitement!
  I like the art styles of the different NPC avatars even though they're not animated. I prefer it that way, because some other older poker games try to simulate opponent banter, and I think that's annoying.

And on a deeper level, each NPC does have a playing personality. You can glean whether one particular NPC likes to call and then can easily be pushed out of a hand. Another NPC will call down everything with nothing or at least a small pair. Some raise like crazy.

It's funny, all the good reviews on Amazon for this game mimic my experience: this plug 'n play game eventually gets worn out after a few years, but reviewers liked it so much that they bought another one. I did too!
Last edited by: smoothgrh on Jun 17, 2021
Mission146
Mission146
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June 17th, 2021 at 10:40:40 AM permalink
Smoothgrh,

Now look what I've started! I got you back playing that game. I owe you an apology and a drink, if we ever meet. I'll have Dr. Pepper, myself.

You'e darn right about the top hand being unsurprising, though I am a little surprised. Looking at the Community Cards, I'd have guessed that he called with 5-2, offsuit.

I'd found the only way to win in the late stages of the game was to have the Stone Cold absolute nuts such that being outdrawn was impossible. Additionally, you virtually cannot ever go all-in preflop in the late stages of that game.

I guess completing the game is something of an accomplishment...my main gripe is that it purports to teach the player how to play poker and it absolutely does not do that, unless it's meant to teach how to play badly...the only thing that a player can eventually learn is how to beat this game specifically. It's a satisfying achievement, but one that has no real world value.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
smoothgrh
smoothgrh
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Mission146
June 17th, 2021 at 10:58:11 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146



I guess completing the game is something of an accomplishment...my main gripe is that it purports to teach the player how to play poker and it absolutely does not do that, unless it's meant to teach how to play badly...the only thing that a player can eventually learn is how to beat this game specifically. It's a satisfying achievement, but one that has no real world value.



I think that's part of the appeal. If I want to win actual poker, I'll play against real people. But I want to beat THIS SPECIFIC GAME knowing its flaws. It's even more of an accomplishment, albeit inane.

But yes, it does not at all teach people how to play poker, aside from gaining patience from folding most hands.

Another note about the "educational" nature of the game: it comes with a DVD with Lou Diamond Phillips teaching you things like what's a "blind" (It's a forced bet!).
heatmap
heatmap
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June 17th, 2021 at 12:13:08 PM permalink
my question to all of you is....

why none of you know what the biased card deal is and if Drich will tell us about it ?

as well if he ever has known it to be used outside of the game he has developed it for?

as well as if it can be adapted to ANY poker game?
Mission146
Mission146
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June 17th, 2021 at 12:21:59 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

my question to all of you is....

why none of you know what the biased card deal is and if Drich will tell us about it ?

as well if he ever has known it to be used outside of the game he has developed it for?

as well as if it can be adapted to ANY poker game?



Did DRich program this game? It's not the card deal that is biased, it's that the AI opponents know what cards are coming in the community hand.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
heatmap
heatmap
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Mission146
June 17th, 2021 at 12:30:36 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Did DRich program this game? It's not the card deal that is biased, it's that the AI opponents know what cards are coming in the community hand.



he developed



which utilizes something called the "biased card deal" (found through patents then connected it to drich)

https://patents.google.com/patent/US7624987B2

Quote:

In the present invention, a method is provided for biasing or controlling the deal of cards, or other indicia, to players of a game. The cards are biased such that each player in the game will receive a hand that is close in ranking to all the other players of the game.



which was eventually used on a game called "wasioux"

i also know of another game that utilizes this algorithm as well but i just dont care to divulge that info

edit

https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/wasioux-game-provides-poker-without-the-pressure

Quote:

WaSioux, as the game is called, is an interactive game that incorporates a mathematical array of some 3.5 million, mostly upper-level, hands to keep the game interesting for players and for the house as well.



edit 2

i should mention drich has said he could not get this game approved in nevada - but most of this stuff i read about "wasioux" being placed into casinos was outside of nevada i think
DRich
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heatmap
June 17th, 2021 at 1:31:23 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap


i should mention drich has said he could not get this game approved in nevada - but most of this stuff i read about "wasioux" being placed into casinos was outside of nevada i think



I am only aware of it being placed in New Mexico. I looked much younger in that video.
Order from chaos
heatmap
heatmap
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June 17th, 2021 at 3:10:06 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I am only aware of it being placed in New Mexico. I looked much younger in that video.



I noticed the creator of the patent and game but that痴 pretty cool you were in that video

Last edited by: heatmap on Jun 17, 2021

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