Sahara Lives On! Future of Vegas
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a makeover and will reopen without the roller coaster. Can
you imagine this happening even 4 years ago? You don't
have to wait for the future, its here. Do you like Circus Circus and
the Riviera? You better, cause they ain't going anywhere.
Sahara
I'll believe it when the construction crews start working.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI'll believe it when the construction crews start working.
Given the many half-finished and abandoned projects in Vegas, I'll believe it when they stop working. I can't picture any banks at this time loaning money to dump into the Sahara.
Quote: DJTeddyBearHiring an architect and getting permits are relatinely cheap.
I'll believe it when the construction crews start working.
Agreed. I don't believe it was the ROLLER COASTER that was holding that place back from reaching its full potential. Sahara is a classic property, and I sure hope it does reopen, but the property has more problems than just that. Furthermore, it doesn't really solve the Circus Circus/Riviera dilemma. Those properties are still significantly farther south. Now, if this, Fontainebleu AND Echelon or Las Vegas Plaza project gets going, THEN I think this could ease Sahara's woes.
Quote:1) Concerning development, especially on the Strip, post 2007: Whatever happens, nothing happens (Shamelessly taken from Asimov's Laws of Hollywood).
There's a reason why that's the First of Nareed's Vegas Laws :)
What I meant was, I'll believe they intend to re-open when the crews start working.Quote: WizardGiven the many half-finished and abandoned projects in Vegas, I'll believe it when they stop working.
On that note, with the abandoned projects you mentioned, I think you meant that you'll believe it when they finish working and re-open....
casino for 350mil, put another 150mil into it, and you have
a working Vegas Strip casino for a good deal less that it
would have cost to build a new one. Companies did a lot
of this during the Great Depression, renovate instead of
build. Makes sense.
Quote: WizardGiven the many half-finished and abandoned projects in Vegas, I'll believe it when they stop working. I can't picture any banks at this time loaning money to dump into the Sahara.
Banks may or may not be loaning the money. The Commercial Mortgage Backed Securities market (CMBS) has been pretty strong because Mom and Pop fled the stock market for bond funds. The hunt for yield has increased demand for deals like this. Banks may have initially made the loan but it was a deal already sold the second the check would be cashed. I am guessing even at 500MM it is below replacement cost for 1600 rooms and a casino. It's definitely risky but that risk (the debt)is now in your granny's bond fund:0
The owner runs a 4.5BB RE fund, at say 4:1 leverage they only put up 130 MM between the property and renovations (if they get done). Probably an aggressive bet for them but they have a lot of mellow industrial property for the steady eddy income.
Quote: WizardGiven the many half-finished and abandoned projects in Vegas, I'll believe it when they stop working. I can't picture any banks at this time loaning money to dump into the Sahara.
Where is the Teamsters Pension Fund when you need them?
On the serious side, I am glad to see the roller coaster go. I hate coasters and thought it made the place look stupid. My thought is that Sahara would do best not to try to go head-to-head with the Bellagios of the world and try to be a sort of cross between the strip and Freemont St. Smaller showrooms with a more intimate feel for acts on their way up or back. Smaller but more intimate, less intimidating casino floor. One-to-one service a 5,000 room place can't match. Total investment will be so much lower they can have a nice, middle-of-the-market place. Toyota made a fortune chasing that market.
Quote: AZDuffmanWhere is the Teamsters Pension Fund when you need them?
I enjoyed that one. Well done, AZDuffman.
Against all odds, the Riv is still percolating. They are not about to blow anything up to build from scratch, but are attempting to hold their own until things start to pick up again. It's pure market forces in operation. The hotels and casinos are trying different strategies to find a niche. Great for those who fit the "working class holiday" demographic.
The north strip is bringing "Downtown" closer to the "Strip" rather than the other way around.
Quote: AyecarumbaI enjoyed that one. Well done, AZDuffman.
Against all odds, the Riv is still percolating. They are not about to blow anything up to build from scratch, but are attempting to hold their own until things start to pick up again. It's pure market forces in operation. The hotels and casinos are trying different strategies to find a niche. Great for those who fit the "working class holiday" demographic.
The north strip is bringing "Downtown" closer to the "Strip" rather than the other way around.
Count me among the folks who are tired of feeling the casino-hotel is a cross between Disneyland and Romper Room. And count me as one who when I go to see a show at a casino would want the showroom to be smaller than a hockey arena. Count me as one who would play a game of Flip-it with some extra change. And count me as one who likes coin machines over TITO for a change. Count me as one who wants to stay where the real Rat Pack stood.
But are there 1,200 people like me a night to show up?
Quote: BozThat area will continue to be dead for many years to come. Room rates are still low and are not getting any better
Vegas property values are still going down.
Every month, like clockwork, property is worth less
than a month ago. And no end in sight.
Quote: EvenBobVegas property values are still going down.
Every month, like clockwork, property is worth less
than a month ago. And no end in sight.
Actually, there is an end. It will never go below zero. Vegas will never be a ghost town (unless radiation from Yucca Mountain turns everyone to zombies, and the Colorado dries up.) Give it a few years. Prices will rebound as the economy picks up.
Even Detroit is doing better (if home prices falling slower is a good thing), as the bankrupt and forclosed exit the market, providing opportunity for new money to flow in. Same in Las Vegas.
Yeah, but Detroit doesn't have to compete with a thousand new upstart car companies in every market....Quote: AyecarumbaEven Detroit is doing better.
"Plans state that the property would include a 2,830-square-foot beer garden."
So, yes, they are going middle-of-the-demographic.
Quote: AyecarumbaEven Detroit is doing better
Better than what? They're about to go BANKRUPT!
Quote: AZDuffmanOn the serious side, I am glad to see the roller coaster go. I hate coasters and thought it made the place look stupid.
Do you think that the coaster in front of New York New York makes that place look stupid?
I agree that at the Sahara was, if not stupid, at least a little "out of place." Then again, what the heck was a NASCAR cafe doing there?
Quote: DJTeddyBear
I agree that at the Sahara was, if not stupid, at least a little "out of place." Then again, what the heck was a NASCAR cafe doing there?
First off, NASCAR has a very specific demographic... one that has few teeth and can consume a lot of beer and burritos apparently.
Actually, the roller coaster at the time they installed it made a LOT of sense. Wet 'N Wild was right next door, and as a kid, I remember being there and seeing that roller coaster and wanting to go on it. My aunt (who lived in Vegas) would take me over and I'd ride that while she played the slots. BINGO! Now it's a bit out of place.
Neither "belong" in a Morocco themed resort.
And, quite frankly, your aunt could have left you at Wet 'n Wild while going to the casino. No need for the coaster...
Quote: DJTeddyBearYou missed my point:
Neither "belong" in a Morocco themed resort.
And, quite frankly, your aunt could have left you at Wet 'n Wild while going to the casino. No need for the coaster...
It still was a reason. At the time, it was one of the first Linear Induction coasters, so that was cool by itself. It didn't fit the theme at all, but how do you make a Moroccan theme work anyways?
In another post, I suggested that they go for an Asian themed casino. Really make it all Macau-like, with slots being in the background. Baccarat would be the game of choice, with others mixed in. Other than the Asian pits, and possibly the colors of Wynn, there really isn't a casino that does anything like that here, so why not try and nab a hold there?
Quote: TiltpoulQuote: DJTeddyBearYou missed my point:
Neither "belong" in a Morocco themed resort.
And, quite frankly, your aunt could have left you at Wet 'n Wild while going to the casino. No need for the coaster...
It still was a reason. At the time, it was one of the first Linear Induction coasters, so that was cool by itself. It didn't fit the theme at all, but how do you make a Moroccan theme work anyways?
In another post, I suggested that they go for an Asian themed casino. Really make it all Macau-like, with slots being in the background. Baccarat would be the game of choice, with others mixed in. Other than the Asian pits, and possibly the colors of Wynn, there really isn't a casino that does anything like that here, so why not try and nab a hold there?
The Sahara has a rich Las Vegas history, and is from a time when most of the casinos had "desert" names (Dunes, Desert Inn, Sands, Last Frontier, etc.). It is unfortunate that the only major joints still doing a "desert" theme are the Mirage and Luxor. With all the problems in the Middle East, the mystery and romance of "Casablanca" and "The Arabian Nights", has been replaced with images of solidiers rolling down bombed out roads in Humvees.
The risk of going, "all in" on a particular geographic theme, is that eventually, it falls out of vogue. What if you go for a Macau/China theme, and they pull another Tiananmen Square massacre? They're still commies propped up by the military after all.
Quote: Tiltpoul
In another post, I suggested that they go for an Asian themed casino. Really make it all Macau-like, with slots being in the background. Baccarat would be the game of choice, with others mixed in. Other than the Asian pits, and possibly the colors of Wynn, there really isn't a casino that does anything like that here, so why not try and nab a hold there?
Speaking of Asian themed. Does anyone know what game they were playing in the movie "Man with the Golden Gun" it was in Macau and these guys were playing at huge table and folks on the floor above were lowering down baskets. Looked chaotic. I assume the baskets were for collecting the cash from the dealers??
Quote: TiltpoulIt still was a reason. At the time, it was one of the first Linear Induction coasters, so that was cool by itself. It didn't fit the theme at all, but how do you make a Moroccan theme work anyways?
You have to work at it. It helps if you give the coaster a name associated with the theme. I think there's an Arabic word for dust devils in the desert, which would be sand devils I guess, but I can't recall what it is. Since this are little tornadoes that stir up a lot of fast wind, that would be an apropriate name for a coaster, harking back to such names as the Cyclone.
Anyway, wasn't all that back when Vegas was trying to rebrand itself as a "family" destination?
Chemin de FerQuote: Scotty71Speaking of Asian themed. Does anyone know what game they were playing in the movie "Man with the Golden Gun" it was in Macau and these guys were playing at huge table and folks on the floor above were lowering down baskets. Looked chaotic. I assume the baskets were for collecting the cash from the dealers??
https://wizardofodds.com/chemindefer
The first paragraph:
Quote:My history is rather murky, but I believe that Chemin de Fer is a precursor or modern-day baccarat. Some early James Bond movies feature the game. It is similar to baccarat, except the there was some room for decision making in drawing a third card. I am not aware of any remaining Chemin de Fer tables, especially in the United States.
