fantastic vault security?
December 31st, 2009 at 11:37:56 AM
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Oceans 11 movies show fantastic vault security for casinos... but I have my doubts, and suspect security is considerably more mundane than the movies would have you believe.
What is fact and what is fiction?
btw I can't find online any confirmation of a story I heard about a casino vault in Puerto Rico getting hit, might have been a few years ago, or a decade. Anyone?
What is fact and what is fiction?
btw I can't find online any confirmation of a story I heard about a casino vault in Puerto Rico getting hit, might have been a few years ago, or a decade. Anyone?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
December 31st, 2009 at 11:51:34 AM
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I'm by no means an expert on this topic, but from my understanding talking to a couple people it is very similar to a bank. Meaning multiple safes, fireproofing, cameras, controlled access etc. Nothing special, and like everything, movies probably make it seem far more high-tech than it actually is.
Obviously one of the keys to security is to always have multiple witnesses to large physical moves of chips or money. Simple and effective.
Obviously one of the keys to security is to always have multiple witnesses to large physical moves of chips or money. Simple and effective.
December 31st, 2009 at 2:13:19 PM
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If you listen to the Ocean's 11 audio commentary, the writer admits to making the whole thing up.
The vaults the casino's have are very small and contain very little money.
The concept of the casino's having to have enough cash on hand to cover all bets made is ridiculous as stressed by the screenwriter himself. He researched it and realized the truth would not make a good film.
The truth is the casino keeps the money in the bank just like any other business. Any large wins and a check is made to draw against their bank account. And don't forget that much of the casino money is comprised of assets that would be sold off, not disposable cash.
The vaults the casino's have are very small and contain very little money.
The concept of the casino's having to have enough cash on hand to cover all bets made is ridiculous as stressed by the screenwriter himself. He researched it and realized the truth would not make a good film.
The truth is the casino keeps the money in the bank just like any other business. Any large wins and a check is made to draw against their bank account. And don't forget that much of the casino money is comprised of assets that would be sold off, not disposable cash.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
December 31st, 2009 at 3:02:14 PM
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Here is the complete information on bankroll requirements in Nevada, revised in 2006:
http://gaming.nv.gov/bankroll_formula.htm
Here are some specific documents:
http://gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/06feb23_bankroll_overview.pdf
http://gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/06feb23_bankroll_instr.pdf
The pertinent part:
http://gaming.nv.gov/bankroll_formula.htm
Here are some specific documents:
http://gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/06feb23_bankroll_overview.pdf
http://gaming.nv.gov/documents/pdf/06feb23_bankroll_instr.pdf
The pertinent part:
Quote: NRS 6.150
--Dorothy"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
December 31st, 2009 at 3:57:38 PM
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The question is what those requirements are. In the movie, they are going to rob the casino on a fight night because there will $160 million in cash on hand.
That's ridiculous. Not only are they risking moving the money back and forth from banks by changing the amount required in their vaults daily, but how would any casino actually know how much money will be bet by players on any given night, aside from rough estimates.
It also is standard practice to hand out checks for large payoffs. And really the casino doesn't have to cover every bet, because most of the time, bets on one side are offset by bets on the opposite side by other players, e.g black, red at roulette.
So there must be more to it.
That's ridiculous. Not only are they risking moving the money back and forth from banks by changing the amount required in their vaults daily, but how would any casino actually know how much money will be bet by players on any given night, aside from rough estimates.
It also is standard practice to hand out checks for large payoffs. And really the casino doesn't have to cover every bet, because most of the time, bets on one side are offset by bets on the opposite side by other players, e.g black, red at roulette.
So there must be more to it.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
December 31st, 2009 at 4:08:21 PM
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Quote: darkozThe question is what those requirements are.
The documents that I pointed to are very specific, including an excel spread sheet to be completed. Maybe you didn't look through it all.
--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
December 31st, 2009 at 4:20:52 PM
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Yeah, I can't get the files to open. I know I don't have excel on mine so maybe thats why.
Maybe we should consider robbing a casino. Sounds like they have a lot of cash on hand.
Maybe we should consider robbing a casino. Sounds like they have a lot of cash on hand.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
December 31st, 2009 at 6:45:48 PM
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Yes, they have alot of cash on hand and additional letters of credit as well.
They also have rigorous procedures and although signs may say "cashier" its really the "cage" area that you are dealing with. Things go into the vault from the cage area. And its like anything else there are procedures regarding access. Multiple personnel required to open a vault door, some of whom know the first part of the combination some of whom know the final part. Standard bank stuff. And if you really want to knock over a vault you better have scuba equipment with you because that fire suppresant button means there won't be any oxygen in there.
Chips are audited and that means boxes and racks are counted but it also means that from time to time a full blown audit is conducted with the chips being examined rather than just counted. And ofcourse the auditors pay closer attention to the higher value chips when testing for counterfeits.
I'm sure you've all heard the terms 'hard count room' and 'soft count room'. Hard does not mean difficult, it is a term that embraces chips and coins rather than soft items such as bills and checks that are pliable. Usually everything gets machine tallied and transferred inside identifiable containers rather than loose. Everything is done in a certain sequence.
Physical access is controlled. All movement of machines, boxes, etc. is done according to procedures. There are no whims or idiosyncrasies. And don't think that a security guard uniform will get you inside, it won't. Casino Manager wants to give some whale a tour? Fat chance!! And don't think the access path is wide or the rooms are large. One door opens and is then closed. The next door can't be opened until that first door is closed and there is simply not enough room between the doors for alot of robbers to burst in. Doors are often unmarked. If you get in and don't belong there its going to be obvious.
They also have rigorous procedures and although signs may say "cashier" its really the "cage" area that you are dealing with. Things go into the vault from the cage area. And its like anything else there are procedures regarding access. Multiple personnel required to open a vault door, some of whom know the first part of the combination some of whom know the final part. Standard bank stuff. And if you really want to knock over a vault you better have scuba equipment with you because that fire suppresant button means there won't be any oxygen in there.
Chips are audited and that means boxes and racks are counted but it also means that from time to time a full blown audit is conducted with the chips being examined rather than just counted. And ofcourse the auditors pay closer attention to the higher value chips when testing for counterfeits.
I'm sure you've all heard the terms 'hard count room' and 'soft count room'. Hard does not mean difficult, it is a term that embraces chips and coins rather than soft items such as bills and checks that are pliable. Usually everything gets machine tallied and transferred inside identifiable containers rather than loose. Everything is done in a certain sequence.
Physical access is controlled. All movement of machines, boxes, etc. is done according to procedures. There are no whims or idiosyncrasies. And don't think that a security guard uniform will get you inside, it won't. Casino Manager wants to give some whale a tour? Fat chance!! And don't think the access path is wide or the rooms are large. One door opens and is then closed. The next door can't be opened until that first door is closed and there is simply not enough room between the doors for alot of robbers to burst in. Doors are often unmarked. If you get in and don't belong there its going to be obvious.
December 31st, 2009 at 7:50:16 PM
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Yeah, I know prisons are difficult like that too.
I had a friend who unfortunately got into trouble and ended up at Rikers Island.
In order to visit, you had to park on the mainland, take a bus through gates on the bridge that took you to the island. Once there, you had to show you had valid ID and who you were going to see(your name was checked against their database, felons are not allowed to visit). Then, you get sent to your appropriate bus which takes you to the complex of the inmate you are visiting, which is behind razor wire fencing twenty feet high.
Once inside the complex, all belongings must be placed inside a locker. You are searched including your mouth and trouser cuffs. The only item you can have on you is your locker key.
Then you are hand-stamped an ultra violet daily changing code on the back palm, and sent through a wall that moves back to allow access.
You go through this wall which closes shut behind you basically leaving you inside a sealed infra-red room. Security personnel can see you from above through plexiglass and you have to hold up your stamped infra-red hand at which time they will open the opposite wall entrance.
Once inside you take seats opposite the prisoners who always face one direction( the prisoners face the guards windows which are at the back of the room and they cannot lower their arms below a certain level so don't think about passing something to them.
To get off the island, you have to have your hand-stamp still visible to get past the infra-red room, you have to have your key to get your ID from the locker, and you have to have your ID to get past the razor wire fence(prisoners don't have ID so if you can't produce ID you stay on the island as a prisoner - at least till the court issues an order to have you released.)
You know in Shawshank where you just dig a hole straight out of prison. Well, it ain't happening there.
I had a friend who unfortunately got into trouble and ended up at Rikers Island.
In order to visit, you had to park on the mainland, take a bus through gates on the bridge that took you to the island. Once there, you had to show you had valid ID and who you were going to see(your name was checked against their database, felons are not allowed to visit). Then, you get sent to your appropriate bus which takes you to the complex of the inmate you are visiting, which is behind razor wire fencing twenty feet high.
Once inside the complex, all belongings must be placed inside a locker. You are searched including your mouth and trouser cuffs. The only item you can have on you is your locker key.
Then you are hand-stamped an ultra violet daily changing code on the back palm, and sent through a wall that moves back to allow access.
You go through this wall which closes shut behind you basically leaving you inside a sealed infra-red room. Security personnel can see you from above through plexiglass and you have to hold up your stamped infra-red hand at which time they will open the opposite wall entrance.
Once inside you take seats opposite the prisoners who always face one direction( the prisoners face the guards windows which are at the back of the room and they cannot lower their arms below a certain level so don't think about passing something to them.
To get off the island, you have to have your hand-stamp still visible to get past the infra-red room, you have to have your key to get your ID from the locker, and you have to have your ID to get past the razor wire fence(prisoners don't have ID so if you can't produce ID you stay on the island as a prisoner - at least till the court issues an order to have you released.)
You know in Shawshank where you just dig a hole straight out of prison. Well, it ain't happening there.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
January 1st, 2010 at 5:34:13 PM
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I once toured a major Vegas casino before it opened, including the cage. Behind the main cage that the public sees, there was another "cage for the cage" as I'll call it. It was my understanding that is where they kept the necessary cash on hand for Gaming Control Board purposes. They had lots of tables for counting currency, cameras everywhere, and one wall was all one-way glass. You had to go through one a trap to get in or out, where once you went through one door, it locked behind you, before the second could be unlocked. Lots of banks have them too. There is a term for it, for I don't remember what it is. There may be other safeguards or things I wasn't told. Suffice it to say it wasn't nearly as fancy as the Oceans 11 vault, but still pretty impressive.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
January 1st, 2010 at 9:58:04 PM
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Quote: Wizardwhere once you went through one door, it locked behind you, before the second could be unlocked. Lots of banks have them too. There is a term for it, for I don't remember what it is.
That type of door/portal is called a "Sally Port".
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
January 2nd, 2010 at 9:22:33 AM
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I've seen the vaults at currency exchange houses, and once a vault at a bank (because they kept the safety deposit boxes there). Security is tight, no question. The doors are heavy, hardened steel, maybe even armor steel, and very thick. At the currency exchange the door to the vault room was itself an armored steel door. There are combination locks and key locks, as well as electronic locks (one reuires a card key plus a code on a keypad).
But there are no time locks, no simultaneaous keys, no retina-print readers, no fingerprint readers (which are easily foiled anyway). In short none of the gimmicks you often see in Hollywood thief movies.
The alarm system had lots of sensors at the doors and windows, motion sensors inside and was linked to the fire alarm and sprinkler system. But there was no laser maze or any other kind of exotic movie system.
How secure is it all? Very secure. But no system will deter a determined band of thieves. It's just they prefer easier, less secure, less risky targets. For example, robbing an ATM is easier and far safer than robbing a bank vault.
Likely it also is more profitable. I don't know how much cash banks keep on hand, but it isn't as much as people think. Try to cash a large check early in the morning at most mexican banks, and you'll be told the armored truck with the money hasn't arrived yet.
Banks in Mexico City located at areas with large cash flows, such as the alrger food markets, take in loads of cash from customers, but send it all to a central location or, for all I know, the national mint, daily. I've seen the armored trucks arrive to pick up large sacks of bills. So a bank vault after closing time probably doesn't hold much cash.
The safe deposit boxes, of course, hold a great deal. But little of it is cash. What people keep there is more along the lines of jewlery, expensive watches, important papers and maybe some foreign currency their bank won't handle.
But there are no time locks, no simultaneaous keys, no retina-print readers, no fingerprint readers (which are easily foiled anyway). In short none of the gimmicks you often see in Hollywood thief movies.
The alarm system had lots of sensors at the doors and windows, motion sensors inside and was linked to the fire alarm and sprinkler system. But there was no laser maze or any other kind of exotic movie system.
How secure is it all? Very secure. But no system will deter a determined band of thieves. It's just they prefer easier, less secure, less risky targets. For example, robbing an ATM is easier and far safer than robbing a bank vault.
Likely it also is more profitable. I don't know how much cash banks keep on hand, but it isn't as much as people think. Try to cash a large check early in the morning at most mexican banks, and you'll be told the armored truck with the money hasn't arrived yet.
Banks in Mexico City located at areas with large cash flows, such as the alrger food markets, take in loads of cash from customers, but send it all to a central location or, for all I know, the national mint, daily. I've seen the armored trucks arrive to pick up large sacks of bills. So a bank vault after closing time probably doesn't hold much cash.
The safe deposit boxes, of course, hold a great deal. But little of it is cash. What people keep there is more along the lines of jewlery, expensive watches, important papers and maybe some foreign currency their bank won't handle.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
January 2nd, 2010 at 10:15:09 AM
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I would have called it an "Air Lock"Quote: Wavy70That type of door/portal is called a "Sally Port".Quote: Wizardwhere once you went through one door, it locked behind you, before the second could be unlocked. Lots of banks have them too. There is a term for it, for I don't remember what it is.
Then again, I'm a SciFi fan.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 5th, 2010 at 8:58:19 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitOceans 11 movies show fantastic vault security for casinos... but I have my doubts, and suspect security is considerably more mundane than the movies would have you believe.
What is fact and what is fiction?q]
I ADMIT THIS IS JUST FOR FUN--I LOVED "OCEAN"S 11."
What had me thinking it was fake on "Ocean's 11" was the amount of cash stolen-$160,000,000. The volume of the amount is part of the security. Like in "Goldfinger" the sheer size of the heist makes it impossible.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=441929
Just ONE MILLION in $100 bills:
Would be a stack just over four feet high and weigh 22 pounds with a volume of 2 cubic meters (sorry for the metric/standard mix, all I can find.) Now you must multiply this all by 160:
640 feet high
3520 puunds
320 cubic meters
If I remember right, 7 of the 11 carried the funds out with Danny in the holding room, Basher knocking the power out and that weird electronics guy (forget the name) running the camera gags, and Brad Pitt the voice on the phone. So you are asking them to carry 502 pounds each.
BUT THAT ASSUMES THE BILLS ARE ALL $100s!
If half are $20s and we assume there is nothing smaller the volume of the haul is:
(hope my math is right this being Wiz's site!)
1920 feet high
10560 pounds or 1509 pounds per person
960 cubic meters
To picture 960 cubic meters, picture about 14 40' intermodal shipping containers!
As to "cage security" I think another big part of it is the complexity and size of the casinos. Say you get thru all of the hotel check in area and crowds. You have to carry out your haul. Far easier to watch the armored car pull out and knock it over I would think.All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
January 5th, 2010 at 9:14:42 AM
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Quote:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=441929
Just ONE MILLION in $100 bills: Would be a stack just over four feet high and weigh 22 pounds with a volume of 2 cubic meters.
A dollar bill has dimensions 6.14 inches by 2.61 inches.
You need 10,000 $100 bills to make that million. The thickness of a $100 bill is 0.0043 inches. To stack 10,000 of them would take 43 inches. Assuming some defects and imperfections in stacking, you get the 4 foot (48 inch) stack.
So this stack has volume:
(6.14/12 feet)*(2.61/12 feet)*(4 feet) = 0.44515 cubic feet. That's under 1/2 cubic feet for that $1 million. Assuming imperfections, call it 1/2 cubic feet per million.
The weight of a bill is approximately a gram. So, 10,000 of them would be 10 kilograms, or about 22 pounds, so that much is accurate.
160 Million in $100 bills would be about 80 cubic feet, or just under 3 cubic yards.
Many people overstate the volume of $1 million in 100 bills. If you watch poker on TV, where they regularly carry out several million dollars, you'll see it doesn't take as much volume as you might imagine.
--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
January 5th, 2010 at 9:33:41 AM
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Quote: DorothyGaleMany people overstate the volume of $1 million in 100 bills. If you watch poker on TV, where they regularly carry out several million dollars, you'll see it doesn't take as much volume as you might imagine. --Dorothy
assuming they are showing what they claim
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
January 5th, 2010 at 9:46:08 AM
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It's true. I was last in Vegas in the Summer of 2006, and Bally's or Paris or the connector between them had a glass case with $1,000,000 in cash in it. It wasn't THAT much space. Just what Dorothy says. Is it still there?
January 5th, 2010 at 9:53:22 AM
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OK. How many armloads does it take to carry out 'not that much space', times 160?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 5th, 2010 at 11:53:24 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearOK. How many armloads does it take to carry out 'not that much space', times 160?
At 22 pounds per 1M, that's 3520 pounds. It's also 3 cubic yards. That's a huge amount of stuff. I had a Ford F-350 heavy duty truck that couldn't carry that much weight, and that much volume would have extended well above the bed. I lived on a farm and used the truck for hauling hay and horses, not cash, so YMMV.
--Dorothy
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
January 5th, 2010 at 11:54:09 AM
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Haha...I was simply referencing Dorothy's quote that "Many people overstate the volume of $1 million in 100 bills."
January 5th, 2010 at 2:00:59 PM
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A inside of a briefcase is typically 17.5 x 12.5 x 3.5 inches.
A $100 bill is 2.61 x 6.14 x .0043 inches and weighs .983 grams.
So you could fit 830 bills high in a suitcase. You could fit 2x6 sets of bills across. Therefore, you could fit 9,960 bills in a standard suitcase. So you could fit about $1 million in $100s in a suitcase and put the extra 40 bills in your pocket. The suitcase would weigh an additional 21.7 pounds.
$160 million = 160 suitcases.
The volume of $160 million in $100 bills is 1,600,000 x 2.61 * 6.14 * .0043 = 110,254.75 cubic inches. There are 46,656 cubic inches in a cubic yard (36 x 36 x 36). Therefore, $160,000,000 in $10 bills would take up 2.363 cubic yards of space.
Depending on which F-350 you have the smallest cab has a volume of 64.4 cubic feet or 111,283 cubic inches which means that you could carry all of the money in the back of the smallest F-350. However, you would have to purchase the correct payload package to carry the weight.
A $100 bill is 2.61 x 6.14 x .0043 inches and weighs .983 grams.
So you could fit 830 bills high in a suitcase. You could fit 2x6 sets of bills across. Therefore, you could fit 9,960 bills in a standard suitcase. So you could fit about $1 million in $100s in a suitcase and put the extra 40 bills in your pocket. The suitcase would weigh an additional 21.7 pounds.
$160 million = 160 suitcases.
The volume of $160 million in $100 bills is 1,600,000 x 2.61 * 6.14 * .0043 = 110,254.75 cubic inches. There are 46,656 cubic inches in a cubic yard (36 x 36 x 36). Therefore, $160,000,000 in $10 bills would take up 2.363 cubic yards of space.
Depending on which F-350 you have the smallest cab has a volume of 64.4 cubic feet or 111,283 cubic inches which means that you could carry all of the money in the back of the smallest F-350. However, you would have to purchase the correct payload package to carry the weight.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 5th, 2010 at 8:20:26 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearI would have called it an "Air Lock"Quote: Wavy70That type of door/portal is called a "Sally Port".Quote: Wizardwhere once you went through one door, it locked behind you, before the second could be unlocked. Lots of banks have them too. There is a term for it, for I don't remember what it is.
Then again, I'm a SciFi fan.
Airlock = Shiny blue jump suit and a Tricorder.
Sally Port = Orange jump suit and leg chains.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
