Flashing dealers

Dan, I find your perspective interesting. I imagine most here admire the code of conduct you yourself seem to live by. I'm sure it is one reason you made it as a dealer.

I guess your point of view partly boils down to the reality that what the casino wants is people to play and have fun, winning sometimes, but accepting that the house always wins end the end, and that pays for the entertainment. That's pretty much what it has been for me.

But I would say gambling in general, excluding typically casinos, is properly a matter of making the best bet and coming out ahead by having an edge. That might mean being a better poker player, for example, but there are usually other elements at play for that edge too. When it's "dealer's choice" private poker, there is absolutely no question that part of that game is to call a game when you are the dealer that you feel you know better than the other players. When making a sports bet, the smartest thing is to bet on games where you have an edge through knowledge. And, yes, sometimes a little stunt is involved, such as betting you can throw a watermelon on top of a tall building then tossing it from an adjoining building instead of from the street. [IMO there would be circumstances where that would be acceptable, such as a long-standing understanding between some bettors that no holds are barred].

What I am getting at is that casinos welcome in gamblers, and gamblers are entitled to bringing that attitude with them. So that might mean that when you can triple down in a BJ promotion you hustle off and do so, and when you do you feel like you played it smart. And I am going to say something that no one else has, and that is that the Wizard condones and encourages this and sometimes you stand out as someone who isn't with the program, so to speak. I would also say you seem to take it a little personally as a dealer per se, when the object isn't cheating the dealer.

Your perspective is welcome, and probably somebody needs to keep mentioning it is easy to cross the line into unethical behavior; clearly there are people who need to hear this.

My 2 cents.

Dan, I think you have a few basic misconceptions about this style of play. It's not as black and white as an innocent gambler noticing when a dealer accidentally has an arm spasm and flips the hole card right-side up on the felt by accident vs a player marking cards to determine the value of a hidden card. I know you don't believe it, but there are plenty of experienced, skilled dealers that accidentally flash cards once in a while. Obviously, marking, mucking, using a mirror, etc. are all cheating. But if you haven't used the term "cheater" specifically to refer to hole card players (who do not fall into the category of markers, muckers, or players using mirrors), you have certainly made it a strong implication, in this post and in others. I'm not trying to flame you on this, I just think painting every single person who plays with an edge over the casino with the same brush is ridiculous. Let me guess—card counters are cheaters too?

And regarding the other part of my post, I see your point, of course. I spend a lot of time playing casino games, so I know that most dealers really want the customers to win. More tokes for them, and I would imagine that it goes down easier than watching a single mother lose her paycheck on a Friday night. But when that latter situation occurs, it's the dealer's job to take every last penny that degenerate gambler is willing to wager, and a good dealer (ie. profitable for the house) will do it with a smile, so the gambler can at least justify wasting their money as "entertainment." The dealer has no ethical dilemma here—they're doing their job. They're not bad people, and I certainly don't fault them for it. But if the casino can offer these games and I can find a way to legally beat them, I feel no ethical obligation to do otherwise.

If you think I'm somehow misrepresenting the altruistic intentions of casinos, consider a quote from Gary Loveman. I'm paraphrasing here, as I don't have the actual quote in front of me, but when asked why a gambling addict that had been self-excluded from playing in Harrah's casinos was allowed to subsequently return and lose their shirt, he responded by saying that the casino simply doesn't have the resources to monitor and patrol every single patron that comes through the doors. Sounds reasonable—the casino can't catch every problem gambler that walks in, even if they are losing tons of money (although I'll bet I can count the number of problem gamblers that an average casino does "catch" in a year on one hand). But do you think it's odd that a person that sits down at a blackjack game (even a crummy 6:5 Harrah's game) and starts spreading their bets wildly will get attention from surveillance and the floor, generally within a few minutes? The casino has plenty of resources to watch these people and give them the boot, but the problem gamblers are going to make their hold figures for the month.

Dan...

I admire your personal code of ethics... I wish I could say I was as steadfast in some of my own choices. I do return money to a cashier who gets it wrong and I don't mark cards with ink or bend corners, but I'll admit I was happy to benefit from an "inexperienced" Texas Hold 'em Bonus dealer in Tampa. She paid losing hands as winning hands if you hit the bonus - and paid some bonus' double what they were listed as (ironically - always when I had a bet out for her, too). [Side note: interested to know how much that changed the game mathematically] My wife and I usually play $1 on the bonus for the dealer about 1 out of 3 hands and always after getting a bonus. We toke well at the craps table, too. I know for a fact that I've had field bets survive a losing roll as well as hardway bets stay up. Am I actively cheating if the crew shows this kind of appreciation? The box must see this happen a lot yet I see the some of the same crews everytime we go to Vegas.

Currently, I probably fall into the category of players who feel it is the casino's responsibilty to put dealers on a game that understand the rules - And the wife and I are always more surprised that the casino will allow an unhappy or surly or gripey or rude dealer deal than a sloppy one.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Incidentally, I'm not one to fall back on legal status to attempt to prove ethicality, but anyone that knows a thing or two about this subject knows that there are several very unambiguous legal precedents regarding hole card play—guess which side the judges decided in favor of?

Lonesome: great well-written post! Do you have any details on the legality of hole card play?

Quote: Paigowdan

Lonesome:
I did not say if you see a hole card then you are cheating. Re-read the thread. Indeed, I pointed out if a dealer has flashing his hole card, or even dropped his hole card, on the action of NO PLAYERS' part - then NO cheating was committed. In fact, I also pointed out that the floor supervision at our casino WILL:
- ALLOW the dealer to play is hand EXPOSED for all players to see and benefit; and,
- allow players to hit until they can BEAT the dealers hand - and get paid, and;
- if a player busts, he has NO LOSS.
Such a deal. NOT cheating here
Lonesome - Are we CLEAR on that?
NOW...If a player deliberately TRIES to see the hole card to knowledge of it via action (READ: marking the cards with invisible ink, using a small mirror, using a cell phone camera, etc.)
Then that is cheating.
No, if's, ands, or but.
Do you see this distinction?

And no, this is not "using your brains," because if you get caught above the radar - using a deliberate action, then yes, casinos are intriniscally protected from this, when they catch you in the act and can prove it.
Believe me, I am indeed convinced you are human at heart, and even human through and through, which is also pretty much dog-eat-dog in this world.

You keep alluding to the premise that an accidentally flashed hole card would be a strictly one-off occurrence. The point Lonesome is making without actually saying it is that there are dealers - yes, even very experienced dealers - that accidentally flash their hole cards with regularity, i.e. virtually every hand. Why, I can remember playing several such dealers at your own Fiesta myself. And there was no "staying under the radar", it was two hands of table max for several hours. Such dealers require no device, nor markings, or putting your head on the table to see their card. The Nevada Supreme Court has ruled that a player(s) taking advantage of this information in such a situation is not cheating.

Quote: odiousgambit

Dan,
.....
Your perspective is welcome, and probably somebody needs to keep mentioning it is easy to cross the line into unethical behavior; clearly there are people who need to hear this.

Thanks! I do think a real number need to hear a more middle road prespective
I take an unusual position: if a casino dealer gives me free money because of his mistake, - it's not mine (e.g., A crap dealer pays me on the DC/don't come on a seven out, for example) - I take my losing bet and the false winnings and return it to the dealer, telling him - this bet lost - it goes back into your working stacks.

I am puzzled as to why this is so hard for a person to do!
I was never entitled to it, I never won it, I shouldn't have had it, and it needs to be returned.The fact that people want this ill-gotten money as precious is beyond me.

Note that casinos like players involved with their game: they know Pai Gow strategy, they know basic strategy, they don't have their heads up their asses, but this is different than being a casino cheat, who's marking cards, or using electronic devices to destabilize slot machines. Make a huge distinction between these two groups.

Quote: RussHealey

You keep alluding to the premise that an accidentally flashed hole card would be a strictly one-off occurrence. The point Lonesome is making without actually saying it is that there are dealers - yes, even very experienced dealers - that accidentally flash their hole cards with regularity, i.e. virtually every hand. Why, I can remember playing several such dealers at your own Fiesta myself. And there was no "staying under the radar", it was two hands of table max for several hours. Such dealers require no device, nor markings, or putting your head on the table to see their card. The Nevada Supreme Court has ruled that a player(s) taking advantage of this information in such a situation is not cheating.

If a dealer is consistently flashing the hole card on a routine basis, you got a source of free money. I assume it was 3cp before the (new I-deal) new machines came out. Fine, if this is not cheating, but a house operational problem, I would document this situation for the floor and management. Granted, players taking advantage of it are declared non-cheating because it's the house that's basically saying, in a strange way - use our information to your benefit, while being silent, oblivious to it at the same time. A bizzare situation. I wouldn't do this becaue I wouldn't what that money. Also please note that if the Nevada board okays an error-type situation as non-cheating for a group of gamblers getting free money, the situation would be very suspect on the values and ethics food chain either.

I would notify the floor supervison that this is going on (and they can check the hemmoraeging figures and see for themselves), and they would fix the problem. I may even point it out at the table, "I notice you cannot help but to flash you hole card; can you stop doing that? I'd like to play and win at a CLEAN game, if possible in this joint." Announcing the cards that were flashed as they were flashed - but before long before the play out the deal, really clarifies it and exposes it.

As long as you, the player, have not used any device to obtain an improper advantage its not cheating. A dealer who inadvertently flashes his hold card, be it once or routinely, has displayed the information to you. You are therefore free to make use of it.

I don't know if routine exposures of hole cards continue to this day since it seems surveillance looks for it often, but I don't know if its all that profitable either.

Quote: Paigowdan

If a dealer is consistently flashing the hole card on a routine basis, you got a source of free money. I assume it was 3cp before the (new I-deal) new machines came out.

I have made a fair amount of money from dealers flashing at 3CP. I got the idea from reading the Wizard's book "Gambling 102" (which I recommend everyone here purchase...) and when I went to the nearest local casino and stood in from of the 3CP table I was both surprised and amused at how easy it was to see the hole card practically EVERY HAND from just about any angle, standing or sitting. I'd say about 40% of the dealers flashed the hole card and there was one poor kid who, when he took his own packet, raised his hand and waved the cards with a flourish and then slammed them down in front of him with a big grin on his face... a real entertainer.

If a dealer didn't flash, I played poker until the shift change and if the new dealer didn't flash I'd either play more poker or go home. If the dealer did flash I'd play about 50% of the table max and over a period of just over a year I made a very tidy sum. The game has been yanked from the casino (I don't know the reason why) and although it is still on the floor in a couple of other local casinos the chairs are too high or the machine is flush mounted or the dealers have been better trained - either way, I don't bother playing because I don't have an advantage.

The point I'm making (mostly to Dan) is that I never made an effort to see the hole cards, they were presented quite clearly to me. When I can't see the hole cards the casino has an advantage. I don't play the game in those circumstances. When I can see the hole card I have an advantage. Bear in mind that I didn't always win big every day and even had some pretty outrageous losing sessions, even with a mathematical advantage. I don't think the casino is cheating me when I can't see the hole card and I don't think I'm cheating the casino when I can. I do know who has the advantage in both situations though and I play accordingly.

If I found a truly biased roulette wheel, I'd play that section until I broke the bank if they'd let me. If I somehow discovered that the casino had purchased a batch of flawed dice where the number 1 could never be rolled, I shoot dice all day playing the high numbers. I see NOTHING wrong with any of these scenarios. If the casino, whose business it is to take my money by offering games where they have a built in advantage is foolish or lazy or unobservant enough to have a dealer or a device provide me with an advantage, I'm all over it like a fat kid on a doughnut.

By the way, all your talk about altruistic dealers and supervisors and managers and how they really want you to win and have a good time is a bit hard to stomach. I've never been in your casino so I have no comment about your place of business but if you were to play in the casino I play in you'd soon discover that the GREAT majority of dealers have little to no concept of customer service, have little or no interest in the players and most of them are just clock watching in what for most of them is nothing more than a dead-end job that required no real skills other than a few weeks of training.

I will restate what I said earlier. You say if a dealer pays you when you should not that its wrong . It isnt any more wrong than in any other sport when you get certain benefits due to errors or bad calls. Its gamesmanship and you can use any legal means necessary to win.

Quote: TheNightfly

The point I'm making (mostly to Dan) is that I never made an effort to see the hole cards, they were presented quite clearly to me.

This I can understand - that's okay for the player, (in a non-felonious but arguably unethical sort of way) - but it is certainly not okay for the dealer. A fireable offense if it occured after a "correction warning" was given to the dealer. If a player took some sort of positive action to effect trick action to seeing a hole card when the dealer was proper or"tight" in his dealing delivery, a felonious action of sorts may have occurred.

Quote: The nightfly

When I can't see the hole cards the casino has an advantage. I don't play the game in those circumstances. When I can see the hole card I have an advantage. Bear in mind that I didn't always win big every day and even had some pretty outrageous losing sessions, even with a mathematical advantage. I don't think the casino is cheating me when I can't see the hole card and I don't think I'm cheating the casino when I can. I do know who has the advantage in both situations though and I play accordingly.

Sort of playing in "different shades of the grey area".

Quote: Thenightfly

If I found a truly biased roulette wheel, I'd play that section until I broke the bank if they'd let me. If I somehow discovered that the casino had purchased a batch of flawed dice where the number 1 could never be rolled, I shoot dice all day playing the high numbers. I see NOTHING wrong with any of these scenarios.

Quote: Dan

I would, and I would speak with supervision.

If the casino, whose business it is to take my money by offering games where they have a built in advantage is foolish or lazy or unobservant enough to have a dealer or a device provide me with an advantage, I'm all over it like a fat kid on a doughnut.

Quote: Dan

There are Others helping the other side, by saying: "okay, here's a list or procedural problems you need to fix in your dealing operations" as the fat doughnut for the casino worker. As for the unobservant dealer who has lost control of his game, well that's his last day on the job and his first day on the unemployment line. Casinos don't play around with f-ck-up unobservant dealers who are sloppy and lazy, as well as dealers who are not enforcing the rules of the game, but instead are printing money free for the taking.They get walked off by security, or may even be held for an arrest if working in collusion.

Quote: the nightfly

By the way, all your talk about altruistic dealers and supervisors and managers and how they really want you to win and have a good time is a bit hard to stomach.

things actually work great when people win and lose by the ground rules, where the rules of fair play are in place equally for all, and all are cool with it, without apprehension. What's hard to stomach is when you have a dog-eat-dog environment at a gaming table, with constant cheating manoeuvers, with accusations and counter-accusation abounding. Now THAT's a breakdown at a gambling table that's hard to stomach, and is not the way gambling should occur.

Quote: thenightfly

I've never been in your casino so I have no comment about your place of business but if you were to play in the casino I play in you'd soon discover that the GREAT majority of dealers have little to no concept of customer service, have little or no interest in the players and most of them are just clock watching in what for most of them is nothing more than a dead-end job that required no real skills other than a few weeks of training.

Sounds like a bad and unfrienfly environment. Our management terms people with nasty attitude problems towards players, as we term dealers who have attitude problems to enforcing and playing by the rules. May be true, a great shame. We play with a different mix of gamblers, gamblers who are okay with enforced dealing rules that are tight, with dealers focused on clean games and customer service, and where ligit strategy or "brain power" in card games are respected - this is fine. A Pai Gow Player sets a hand as an AK top with an flush instead of playing it as two pairs for the win by using his brains, we smile and pay him and compliment his sharp play by the rules, and the money is his with our blessing.

Every house is different, and developes its own personality which can realy vary from dog-eat-dog to "where we're all on the same sheet of music, let's play the games straight and have fun, salut a good job done" - or anything in-between.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Quote: reno

Lonesome: great well-written post! Do you have any details on the legality of hole card play?

One of the most well-known cases is the decision in State of Nevada vs Einbinder and Dalben, where it was established that it's a) legal to play with knowledge of the dealer's hole card, and b) legal to communicate the value of the card to an associate also sitting at the table. This was before mirror peeking devices were common in casinos, and Tony Dalben was able to sit at first base and see the dealer's hole card when she checked for a natural. He would then signal the information to his partner, Steve Einbinder, who was playing at 3rd base. They were arrested at the Golden Nugget in 1983, so the legality of hole card play is nothing new.

And before others may have the urge to lump hole card players in with "cheats," consider the case of James Grosjean vs. Caeser's Palace, Imperial Palace, and Griffin Detective Agency. Griffin shares the opinion that legitimate advantage players deserve to appear in their mug book alongside cheats and other criminals, often with misleading or incorrect information (eg. "possible involvement with card mucking team" when they are simply suspected of such a thing, with zero evidence to back it up). Caeser's made the mistake of backrooming Grosjean and his partner because the latter was listed in the Griffin Book as a "known card bender," despite the fact that they were using 100% legal methods to beat a game. If you research these lawsuits, you'll find that Mr. Grosjean was rewarded a very large sum of money for his treatment by Caeser's and IP (two separate incidents), and the case literally bankrupted Griffin. Unfair accusations and even vague implications can get people into a lot of trouble.

Quote: Paigowdan

things actually work great when people win and lose by the ground rules, where the rules of fair play are in place equally for all, and all are cool with it, without apprehension.

Sorry, I have to admit to not being much of a gambler. I have no interest in walking into a casino, handing over my 5%, and going home, even if that constitutes "fair play" in your books. Here's my take on fair play: if a casino wants to offer a floor full of sucker games and reverse ATMs, then I'm going to go in and turn the tables. I have never cheated in my life, and I'm consistently one of the friendliest people at the table, always treating the dealer, pit and other players with respect. I play the games offered by the rules posted, and I don't use "tricks" to obtain additional information, nor do I take shots. Yet, I enjoy a consistent edge over the house. Sounds "fair" to me.

No problem with that attitude. Keep in mind that:
1. The casino has to pay for its light bill;
2. Also the salaries (modest) it has to pay its dealers, slot techs, waitresses, managers, etc.
3. a "49%-51%" isn't a super rip-off or anything. Almost an even shot, and
4. In NO other venue do players complain about the entertainment fee. (Do you get a refund if the movie sucks?; "The reviewer LIED to me! That's cheating! Call the Movie house floorman!")
5. In no other venue do you get a chance to have fun and possibly win (you "Never not always pay" at restaurants, shows, movies, etc., but sometimes get "paid to play" if you get good cards or a good roll or hit a keno ticket.)

For every 1,000 customers, a casino may have some problem with 50 or so gamblers: trying to call the dice on a clear "no roll" event, trying to peek hole cards (not by the dealer showing), trying to re-use bogus free-play tickets, getting into altercations because a player blew his mortgage payment or paycheck, arguing with a waitress carying a tray of 30 pounds of booze because the Creme-de-methe frappe was inperfectly made as was a minute late, picking a fight with a shooter or a stickman calling dice on a lousy roll session, a million and one other methods to take shots from purse snatchings, claiming a fellow players winnings, etc.with people loosing their tempers all the time.

This is a rough and tumble and rude environmnent of high-turnover with little job security, frayed nerves and accusation. On the surface we have to happy greeting faces welcoming customers, any of whom could flip out at any moment and try to get a dealer canned for some perceived slight over the money they're sweating. Comparitively, a rude industry with relatively little job security when you're on top of your job.

Fair enough, I agree with you on all points there. No one likes a shottaker, and I have no problem with recreational gambling. I do agree that casinos provide entertainment to some, I'm only proposing that a player that has found a way to legally and legitimately beat the casino at their own game shouldn't be looked at as a cheater. An undesirable casino patron, sure—I respect a casino's right to ask me to leave—but a criminal, no. And at least I treat these people like humans. As a dealer, I'm sure you're quite familiar with the awful treatment that dealers receive for dealing the wrong cards, being "unlucky", or working in a casino with a policy that a patron doesn't like/understand, or whatever.

Someone once spouted some utterly unverifiable statistics about 95 percent of the people in a casino were honest, 4 percent were often dishonest when suddenly presented with an opportunity, and 1 percent were out to take you for everything you've got.

I wonder. Vegas, Baby...Vegas bespeaks a certain attitude. Alcohol enhances the attitude and dulls the perceptions. The rules probably change a bit in Vegas, but not too much.

I've finally found the evidence of a problem that has been brewing in my mind since Friday afternoon.


First, I think we all can agree that marking cards, using shiners, etc, is wrong, and it's correct that these actions are illegal. On that note, I kinda wish Dan would stop bringing up those topics. The question is: "Is Hole-Carding cheating?"


Seeking official answers to some of my questions, I was scanning the Nevada Gaming Control Board's website for official rules to Three Card Poker and Pai Gow Poker. The truth is, I couldn't find rules to ANY games on the NGCB website. IF someone can point me to the right source, I'd be happy.

But, assuming that NJ's rules are the same and/or based upon Nevada's rules, I went to the NJ Casino Control Commission's website. Poking around, I found this page:
http://www.nj.gov/casinos/actreg/reg/chapter_47.html
On that page, you can scroll down to any game, then download the rules.
Note: Sigh... The top of the list has a disclaimer that the text is unofficial. I gotta assume that's just a legal requirement in case there's a typo.



On the last page of the rules for Three Card Poker, is the following rule:

Quote:

(d) If one or more of the dealer's cards is inadvertently exposed prior to the dealer revealing his or her cards as prescribed in N.J.A.C. 19:47-20.10(b), all hands shall be void and the cards shall be reshuffled.

If the same rule exists in Nevada, then either the court rulings sited earlier in this thread are wrong, or, in Nevada at least, the rule only applies if the dealer or casino discovers the exposed card, and that the players are under no obligation to report it. I.E. A momentarily flashed card is not the same as an exposed card.


Now I turn to the rules for Pai Gow Poker, and focus specifically upon the rules for a fouled hand.

Page 30 contains the following rule for the banker's hand:

Quote:

(j) If the bank does not set his or her own hands correctly, the wager shall not be lost pursuant to N.J.A.C. 19:47-11.9, and the dealer shall be required to reset the bank's hands in the manner submitted to the Commission pursuant to N.J.A.C. 19:47-11.9 so that the round of play may be completed.

The following is an excerpt of a rule on page 20 and 21:

Quote:

(g) ....
A pai gow poker wager made by a player shall lose if:
...
3. The high hand of the player was not set so as to rank equal to or higher than the low hand of that player; or

So there's the official rules.

If a dealer fouls his hand, it gets fixed. If a player fouls his hand, it's tough luck.

That's a double standard that should not be tolerated.

Is it any wonder why players won't mention dealer mistakes that favor players?

The Dan & Dave war continues (toungue in cheek).....

Quote: DJTeddyBear

So there's the official rules.

If a dealer fouls his hand, it gets fixed. If a player fouls his hand, it's tough luck.

Didn't I give countless examples of players allowed to correct their hands - a redo, if you will - above and beyond these rules? If a player continually fouls hands, the hands lose because something else is going on. Some places stick to the "foul=loss" from the get-go, true, but not all, and you can pick where to play.
If a dealer fouls his hand, it gets fixed, to play out the hand. Dealer fouls are very rare, because dealers have to deal 20-40 hours a week of PGP, week after week.

Quote: DJTeddybear

That's a double standard that should not be tolerated.

How does one not tolerate it? Write a letter to the Gaming control board?
Sit at a table, and moan, "- oh, the suffering, the agony, knowing THIS now..." when trying to have fun playing Pai Gow?
If the dealer mis-sets his hand, and the floorman resets it, it plays as supervison reset it. (and Yes, there will be blood: "I coulda won - but now I PUSH!" Hands play as if properly set, and dealer gets a re-do. Players sometimes get this at better places, but often don't - because players might deliberate misset a hand to confuse the dealer into a push (player's pair on top beats dealers KQ, and player may have been trying to "foul the dealer" - which happens often.)

Quote: DJTedybear

Is it any wonder why players won't mention dealer mistakes that favor players?

No, there's no wonder that most players don't mention dealer mistakes (unless, of course, it's in the DEALER'S favor, at which point they're screaming conspiracy), but that's because the average person would make a grab for the free dirty cash whenever given the chance!
Look - Other examples:
- gas station clerk or gas pump makes an error, and gives out an extra 10 gallons on a $10 gas buy after paying the counter clerk $10. Does the average person back run into the gas station office and say, "Here's an additional $34.99, at $3.49/gal - you or your broken gas pump gave me extra gas by mistake!"
- Someone gets change for a $20 after paying with a $10 bill at a Jack-in-the-box drive through. No one notices. Average broke-ass Joe just keeps his mouth shut, drives off, and eats his burgers with the extra cash.
But Get shortchanged by a simple innocent error the other way, - the riot act is read, and of course the NERVE!

This is the way many average people just ARE ethically - and THIS is why there's no wonder about these situations. However, human feelings of "evil conspiracy and rip-off persecution" are projected onto Casinos and their dealers, and to our local auto mechanics, the lawyers, the IRS, our first wives, etc., - everyone has a bad rep.

Edit 1: and I notify dealers if they make an error in the tables favor, and I get thanked by staff, NEVER by players. If a player gripes "YOU COST ME MONEY," I answer, "You never won that money fair and square from the get-go. - You wanna get your hands on some dirty money? - go stick up a 7-11." I tell them there right at the table.
Edit 2: Some of the worst and rudest casino shot-takers and stiffs are fellow dealers and floormen playing at other casinos. Also some of the best "dealer friends" are other dealers and floormen playing at other casinos. A truly polarized bag.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

So there's the official rules. If a dealer fouls his hand, it gets fixed. If a player fouls his hand, it's tough luck... Is it any wonder why players won't mention dealer mistakes that favor players?

Amen.

Here's my subjective, arbitrary list that I made up...

Cheating: A player who marks/bends cards. A player who introduces rigged dice to a game. A player who tampers with a slot machine. A player who tampers with a roulette wheel. A player who colludes with a crooked dealer. Poker players who collude. A player who engages in past-posting (adding or removing chips after the outcome of the bet is known.) A player who steals chips from the dealer or other players at the table.

Not cheating: A player who counts cards. A player who profits from a dealer flashing his hole card. A player who profits from an oddsmaker setting a foolish line on a sporting event. A player who profits from a biased roulette wheel. A player who profits from dice control. A player who profits from a dealer's arithmetic error. A player who profits when the craps dealer forgets to remove losing bets.

Gray area: A player who uses robots in online poker. (I'm too ignorant of online poker to have an educated opinion, so all you poker experts are welcome to critique this.) A player who uses a device to measure roulette wheel speed. (Technically the device isn't interfering with the wheel, so in that respect it's not cheating. But anytime you need to rely on anything other than your own mind to win the game, it's probably cheating.)

I suspect that the courts views much of this differently than I do...

Quote: reno

I suspect that the courts views much of this differently than I do...

Just pray I'm not on the jury.....(just joking)

Actually, living in Las Vegas, - and for some strange reason, VERY few gaming workers get onto juries, or even get called for jury duty. In a crime-ridden city, I and my fellow dealers and floormen have simply not been called for jury duty in like, years.....(fine with me...)

(I hear in my mind's ear on this board, from Mike S. on down, a collective sigh of relief: "WHEW!....THAT'S a GOOD thing....")

Hmm....I will ask around tonight....

Quote: Paigowdan

The Dan & Dave war continues (toungue in cheek)......

There's no war. Although if you want to call it that, I'm sorry it's you I'm up against. I just hope this disagreement doesn't affect our friendship. And, yes, I get the "tongue in cheek" part.

I focused upon hole carding because that was the original post topic.

I also focus upon Pai Gow Poker not because that's your baby, but because that's the only game I know of that has the rule discrepancy I described in my last post.

Yes, I realize that when players foul their hand, the floor person will often give them the Mulligan. My point is, that shouldn't require a floor person's decision. At most, the dealer should just inform the floor person, then go ahead and reset the hand.

Quote: Paigowdan

I did not say if you see a hole card then you are cheating.

No, you said if you inadvertently see a hole card, and use the information, then you are cheating and should go to prison. I doubt this is what you meant, and hope it is not what you meant, but you do take a pretty hard line about these things so it's hard to tell what you really mean.

Instead, I believe you are saying that the player should speak up and alert the floor when a dealer accidentally flashes their hole card. So with a new dealer, every 5 minutes you should wave your arms and go "Mr Floorman, she flashed her hole card again!"? This strikes me as a tattle tail in kindergarten. I think it would hasten her demise as well.

Without committing on the overall issue, i agree with dan that its not the casino's responsibility to correct player errors. (Most) players go to a casino for the purpose of entertainment, not for an exercise in minimizing house edge. If a patron decides to stand his 16 to "play it safe" that's his choice, he doesn't need to be given a lecture in EV. If a roulette player makes a comment about the last three rolls being red, is the dealer expected to interrupt and declare "FOR THE LAST EFFING TIME, IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE"? What about sucker bets? Should dealers inform everyone to stay away from them because the house edge is too high? The only expectation I have for dealers in this regard is when the patron actually asks for instructions. And I do have a minor gripe here; before learning basic strategy I used to ask things like whether to hit my 15 vs a 9 showing, and 70% of the time they would be afraid to commit to an answer.

Quote: gog

What about sucker bets? Should dealers inform everyone to stay away from them...

They might give a guy a break and quit hawking them, especially when the guy is tipping.

Quote: gog

Without committing on the overall issue, i agree with dan that its not the casino's responsibility to correct player errors.

I also agree. And since that's the case, it shouldn't be the player's responsibility to correct dealer errors.

Its the casino that makes those rules and enforces them ... consider those MindPlay tables wherein the casinos said that players can't count cards via a device or skill but the casino can electronically count down the deck constantly. Someone tried to enforce the rules and the casino countered that the dealer is not a player and the rules relating to player conduct did not apply to dealer conduct.

Anyway, all this focus on ethics is too much for me. And my vision is too poor to catch a dealer flashing his hole card anyway!

Quote: FleaStiff

And my vision is too poor to catch a dealer flashing his hole card anyway!

Probably would be my problem too. But you can get glasses that are set to focus at appropriate distances. I actually have a set of glasses for my computer and a set of what I call my poker glasses that is the modern idea for trifocals, areas of the lense graduating seamlessly into multifocals. The casinos wouldnt like knowing I have this secret weapon **diabolical laughter**.

LOL. Oddly enough, one of those "Vegas myths" that I first heard eons ago in some now long-forgotten casino bar is that Pit Personnel and those doing a Fill wear contact lenses that give them 40/20 vision or some such figure so that they can see the edges of chips clearly and determine not just an accurate count but also detect slightly large-diameter chips which might be a sleeve hiding chips of a different value inside it.