Flashing dealers
My question is: under what circumstances would a dealer flash? More specifically, does it only happen when he is dealing by hand? The reason I ask is when I watch them deal from a shoe or a shuffle machine, I don't see any possibility of flashing. Or have I not seen enough?
I have a feeling that there is far more talk of dealers exposing the hole card than ever really takes place in actuality. It was featured in the movie Casino and of course it therefore gets alot of talk as half the world's movie goers therefore become experts at playing blackjack in Vegas. Casinos know what to look for and they look for dealers who are impatient or in any way whatsoever not following the procedures strictly. Players watch, floor persons watch, surveillance watches, pit bosses watch, shift supervisors occasionally watch. I doubt with all this watching anybody really sees much of anything that doesn't get noticed and remedied quite promptly.
Casinos love shoes. Frankly, I don't think a hand held single deck or hand held double deck game is anything to get excited over. Its a "draw" to get players to sit at the table and hope for a peek at the hole card, but that doesn't mean it happens all that often.
Notice the question marks, I am not sure about this. If I have this right, this is not ethical IMO. If for some reason the dealer flashed the card like that without me intentionally doing anything, that is different [I might genuinely have forgotten to place the bet for example]
Flashing his hole card seems really sloppy with no excuse. I would take advantage of that without a problem.
I too have wondered if shoes or CSMs don't really pretty much shut this down?
Quote: andysifThe Wizard have different strategies in BJ, Baccarat and 3 cards poker if the dealer flashes his hole card or the next card to be dealt
My question is: under what circumstances would a dealer flash? More specifically, does it only happen when he is dealing by hand? The reason I ask is when I watch them deal from a shoe or a shuffle machine, I don't see any possibility of flashing. Or have I not seen enough?
Under no circumstances should a dealer flash his/her hole card.
But it can and may happen.
It may happen if a dealer is a relatively new dealer who has not yet fully learned dealing.
Nothing to rejoice in this:
1. If a dealer is flashing his hole card, it is either because he is a new dealer - and not yet fully competent at his job - or is a crook who is working in collusion with a "player agent." Nothing to be proud of here.
2. If a dealer is a new dealer trying to learn the trade, and is making a mistake here and there as he is learning the job, then you would be far more decent a person by trying to help the dealer be a better dealer - by helping him to deal better, than in trying to take advantage, or even steal for a few extra dollars, or even to help him get fired.
Two months ago I went through a fast-food drive through, and the drive-through clerk at a Jack-in-the-box gave me change for a twenty - when I paid with a $10 bill.
I wasn't going to pocket the extra "profit" as an advantage play - although many gamblers "Think Like That."
I returned the extra $10 back, and told her to be more careful.
I don't need to take money that way.
Not at a Jack-In-The-Box, - and not at a Casino.
No Where.
My position.
I was also in that position five years ago, as a new break-in dealer then.
And we in the gaming industry appreciate your consideration now.
I mean, if you went to a bank - to cash a check, and a new "on-the-job" teller made a counting mistake that gave you an extra ten or twenty dollars - would you be proud to take it and shove it in your pocket it - because of a mistake?
Some people would indeed.
And some would not.
A couple dealers hinted (although none outright said) that they knew they were flashing but there was really no way to avoid it until they made the machine flush with the table. One even said they were surprised IGC hadn't taken an issue with it, but nothing was said. Unfortunately, the cards weren't really going my way, so I couldn't use the extra information to my advantage, but an AP could certainly have.
Sigh. I, too, had different expectations about this thread.Quote: FleaStiffAlas, a flashing dealer is not a young attractive female who is exposing her breasts.
Anyway, there is also talk about flashing, or hole-carding, in Three Card Poker. This occurs when the dealer lifts the cards out of the shuffler.
The shuffler for 3 card poker, delivers them 3 cards at a time. 4 card poker, 4 cards at a time. Pai Gow, 7 cards at a time. Etc.
However, in 3 card poker, learning one of the dealer's three cards, is a LOT more valuable than one of the dealers 4 cards in 4 card poker. Valuable enough to change the basic strategy to the point where the game may favor the player who uses that information.
Quote: PaigowdanUnder no circumstances should a dealer flash his/her hole card.
But it can and may happen.
It may happen if a dealer is a relatively new dealer who has not yet fully learned dealing.
Nothing to rejoice in this:
1. If a dealer is flashing his hole card, it is either because he is a new dealer - and not yet fully competent at his job - or is a crook who is working in collusion with a "player agent." Nothing to be proud of here.
2. If a dealer is a new dealer trying to learn the trade, and is making a mistake here and there as he is learning the job, then you would be far more decent a person by trying to help the dealer be a better dealer - by helping him to deal better, than in trying to take advantage, or even steal for a few extra dollars, or even to help him get fired.
Two months ago I went through a fast-food drive through, and the drive-through clerk at a Jack-in-the-box gave me change for a twenty - when I paid with a $10 bill.
I wasn't going to pocket the extra "profit" as an advantage play - although many gamblers "Think Like That."
I returned the extra $10 back, and told her to be more careful.
I don't need to take money that way.
Not at a Jack-In-The-Box, - and not at a Casino.
No Where.
My position.
I was also in that position five years ago, as a new break-in dealer then.
And we in the gaming industry appreciate your consideration now.
I mean, if you went to a bank - to cash a check, and a new "on-the-job" teller made a counting mistake that gave you an extra ten or twenty dollars - would you be proud to take it and shove it in your pocket it - because of a mistake?
Some people would indeed.
And some would not.
I think this is different. I too would never take advantage of a teller or cashier, because if they are short money at the end of the day, they have to cough it up . But if the dealer is losing money, its not his own money. Its the casino's money. The casino didn't give a damn taking my money when I am tired or new or sick, so why should I?
I would try to too keep a low profile though, so as to not get the dealer in any trouble.
Quote: FleaStiffAlas, a flashing dealer is not a young attractive female who is exposing her breasts.
Been to any of those party pits?
Quote: DJTeddyBearSigh. I, too, had different expectations about this thread.
This
Quote: Paigowdan
Two months ago I went through a fast-food drive through, and the drive-through clerk at a Jack-in-the-box gave me change for a twenty - when I paid with a $10 bill.
When I owned the bar, you'd be amazed how many people
will hand you a ten and say 'out of twenty', hoping to trip
you up. When they did that I'd say 'out of five' and they'd
say HEY! Thats a ten! And I'd say 'I thought you said it was
a twenty.' They never tried that again with me.
I will need to remember that one although since I haven't handled money exchanges with the public since college, not sure when I will be able to use it :-)
Both employees probably won't be employed after the shift, though.
N&B
Flashing is more often done from a hand held deck because most such flashing is carelessness and lack of proper training. A dealer intentionally flashing in collusion with a player is rare and surely won't last long.Quote: andysifnow that the thread had drifted somewhat, lets go back to the question: is it possible for a dealer to flash, dealing from a shoe ?
I would expect that players wandering around a casino pretending to be gawking or idly roaming but actually looking for a dealer with small hands who is inadvertently flashing are often disappointed.
Flashing from a shoe is going to be easily noticed and surely won't last long since most flashing by a dealer is a result of his moving the hand-held deck.
With floormen, pitbosses and surveillance watching that dealer ... if you want to sit there waiting for a flash... well, I hope an attractive girl wanders by fairly soon and gives you one. Your chances of that are far better than getting a card prematurely exposed.
Blackjack is a game that is watched. It is watched carefully. Surveillance watches alot of other things but it watches Blackjack always. Casinos know where the opportunities are best so that is where they watch the most. They are not fools. They may get bored, there may be blockers getting in the way of the camera, etc. but there are always people watching from some angle.
Quote: PaigowdanUnder no circumstances should a dealer flash his/her hole card.
But it can and may happen.
or even steal for a few extra dollars
I can't let you get away with this, Dan. IT IS NOT STEALING if you, while NOT in collusion with a dealer, use the information visably available to you when deciding to hit or stand. It is 100% acceptable to use that information. If the casino does not want you to have that information, it is up to THEM to make sure it is not available to you. Show me any gaming regulation or posted casino rule that would back up YOUR assertion that it is stealing.
Quote: PaigowdanI don't need to take money that way.
Not at a Jack-In-The-Box, - and not at a Casino.
No Where.
My position.
I was also in that position five years ago, as a new break-in dealer then.
And we in the gaming industry appreciate your consideration now.
I mean, if you went to a bank - to cash a check, and a new "on-the-job" teller made a counting mistake that gave you an extra ten or twenty dollars - would you be proud to take it and shove it in your pocket it - because of a mistake?
Some people would indeed.
And some would not.
Your argument has been repeated in other threads elsewhere on this forum and I find it completely unpersuasive.
Somewhere in Vegas at this very moment there is an inexperienced tourist splitting 10s at a blackjack table. (An educated blackjack player knows better than to split 10s.) In April 2010, the Wizard wrote: "the 2009 profit from blackjack errors in Nevada could be roughly estimated as 1,008,525,000 * 0.5155 = $519 million." So it's morally acceptable for Nevada casinos to make $519 million per year from player error, but it's morally unacceptable for players to profit from dealer error? That's quite a double standard!
The Big 6/Big 8 bet in craps is a sneaky gimmick that's intended to trick new inexperienced craps players. (By the way, the Big 6 is illegal in New Jersey.) As long as casinos offer the Big 6, it's hard to argue with a straight face that players have a moral duty to avert their eyes when a new inexperienced dealer flashes their hole card.
Quote: PaigowdanI mean, if you went to a bank - to cash a check, and a new "on-the-job" teller made a counting mistake that gave you an extra ten or twenty dollars - would you be proud to take it and shove it in your pocket it - because of a mistake?
Absolutely.
Provided that the teller first did their best to get me drunk and distracted with the intention to cause me to make a counting mistake that they would gladly shove in their pocket.
Quote: kpAbsolutely.
Provided that the teller first did their best to get me drunk and distracted with the intention to cause me to make a counting mistake that they would gladly shove in their pocket.
First of all, Nobody gets you drunk but yourself. No waitress, says, "C'mon, c'om - you GOTTA drink this - YOU KNOW YOU WANT IT....(smile)." This doesn't happen. They say, "Sir, what would you like?" And they also distribute bottled water, too. We routinely hear people say, "Where's my drink! What's taking her SO LONG! The nerve!"
Secondly, you get "cut off" if drunk.
Third, - we distribute drinks as a courtesy - but it's viewed as a "trickery," - yet if we actually charged for the drinks, then we'd be called cheap bastards. Figure that out.
Fourth, no one "distracts," nor we we allow any player to distract or annoy another player. I've never seen dealers snap fingers in faces, or count down weird groups of numbers, or anything like that, to "distract." We simply stand and wait for people to hit or stand on their hands as they see fit, or wait until people set their hands.
What we are far more likely to see are players inching low to sneak peeks at hole cards, we see players snaping fingers or receiting random wrong numbers in an attempt to force dealers miscount and make mistakes "as a game," - you name it - called "taking shots" at the dealers - and the like. If we discreetly track and spot counters, we take defenses: tell the players to play Roulette or be done for the night. Our valid option.
Fact of the matter: if a dealer makes a payout mistake, and it gets caught, players don't get to keep the money. Players are asked/told to return $5, $10, xxx, the amount of the error.
If a dealer drops the hole card face up, player gets to play the hand with full knowledge, no problem.
If a player is caught hole-carding, he is asked to leave.
If a dealer is caught hole carding innocently, he gets put on another game and is order back to dealers' school.
If a dealer is caught hole-carding as a "agent" with a player, or is stealing chips, he gets arrested, along with the player
Kp, if you really think that dealers force you to get drunk and distracted with the intention to cause you to make mistakes to grab your money, then you should stay out of casinos, if you really believe that tripe.
Quote: renoYour argument has been repeated in other threads elsewhere on this forum and I find it completely unpersuasive.
As do I - and my industry - find yours. Got a problem with a casino? - go see a movie, or write a letter to the Gaming Control Board.
Quote: renoSomewhere in Vegas at this very moment there is an inexperienced tourist splitting 10s at a blackjack table. (An educated blackjack player knows better than to split 10s.) In April 2010, the Wizard wrote: "the 2009 profit from blackjack errors in Nevada could be roughly estimated as 1,008,525,000 * 0.5155 = $519 million." So it's morally acceptable for Nevada casinos to make $519 million per year from player error, but it's morally unacceptable for players to profit from dealer error? That's quite a double standard!
Actually it isn't AT ALL in a game of skill. It's called "being your best" and "playing by the rules."
It's morally acceptable for players to play their very best when they possible can, but also morally accountable if they themselves fail - because of their own failure of resources:
1. Players have an obligation to themselves to properly learn the game they are playing, if they are going to play. However, we have no obligation to to change known, fair, and established rules of game - such as "Dealer draws until 17, and hits Soft-17!" - which isn't a very difficult rule.
2. We even sell basic strategy cards that players may use, - but players very rarely use them, although allowed.
Quote: renoThe Big 6/Big 8 bet in craps is a sneaky gimmick that's intended to trick new inexperienced craps players. (By the way, the Big 6 is illegal in New Jersey.) As long as casinos offer the Big 6, it's hard to argue with a straight face that players have a moral duty to avert their eyes when a new inexperienced dealer flashes their hole card.
Casinos haven't been offering the Big-6 Big-8 for years, partly because it's a lousy bet, and partly because no one on the planet played it.
But at a $3 dollar table, making a $3 place 6 or 8 bets pays $3 like the big six or 8. No crime here. Bet $6 to win $7; press the bet.
Not really. We actually speak highly of the players now.Quote: Alancheap ass bastards.
You're well respected here, and you're my friend. If we were sitting together, gambling, and you noticed a dealer error in my favor, I would not think less of you if you pointed it out. FYI: The reason that I wouldn't point it out would be not being fast enough to recognize the error, and/or not wanting to get the dealer in trouble.
The truth is, sometimes I do point it out. But, not wanting to get the dealer in trouble, I'd talk to the floor person about it as much as half an hour afterwards. I do this because, I assume that without the floor person seeing the actual event, he can do little more than mention it to the dealer later. I.E. No write-up.
But I think you need to tone it down a little. And forgive me if you think I'm attacking you in this post.
As Reno pointed out, a casino would do little more than ask for verification if a player wanted to split 10s at BlackJack.
Casinos retain the Big 6 / Big 8 on Craps, even though there are other bets available that fit nicely in that space. If a player bets $30 on the Big 6 or Big 8, is it the casino's policy to move it to a Place 6 or 8? If you're dealing at that table, do you move it? Ask? Or do nothing? Does your answer change if the player is a jerk vs a nice guy who is tipping you? If that same player put down $25, would you give him $1 change and place it for $24?
What is the rule on Pai Gow Poker when a player fouls his hand? I'm not talking about a decision by a floorman who might be in a good mood. Nor am I talking about when the player is banking. I'm talking about the standard rule. Does the hand get set to house way, or does the player lose? In every rule sheet I've seen, the house does NOT fix the player's mistake.
But I'm suddenly really curious about one thing:
What's the rule on EZ Pai Gow if a player fouls his hand?
Quote: PaigowdanIt's morally acceptable for players to play their very best when they possible can, but also morally accountable if they themselves fail - because of their own failure of resources
So the players are accountable if they fail, but the dealers are not?
Quote: DJTeddyBearDan -
But I think you need to tone it down a little. And forgive me if you think I'm attacking you in this post.
Thanks Dave, but I'm not wond up or anything.
I'm just saying that if you go into a casino and would become outraged if the dealer cheated you, then why try to condone player cheating yourself?
I feel this is utterly reasonable - what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Quote: DJTeddybearAs Reno pointed out, a casino would do little more than ask for verification if a player wanted to split 10s at BlackJack.
No Dave - a lot more. A player would have to visually and clearly signal a split of that hand when splitting ten's - with the dealer always asking "Sir, are you sure??!!"
And then would have to allow that foolish play - AND be blamed for a player's loss - but the player praised as a "sharpie" had it won.
bet stays at player's request - because the player explicitly placed the bet indicated he wanted to play it as such. Some players like having "player control" on the place 6 and 8. If the dealer moved it to the place 6 or 8, do you know he could get yelled at by the player: "Hey! What are you doing!! I didn't make a place 8 bet, - I bet the Big 8, dammit!" see it all the time.Quote: DJTeddybearCasinos retain the Big 6 / Big 8 on Craps, even though there are other bets available that fit nicely in that space. If a player bets $30 on the Big 6 or Big 8, is it the casino's policy to move it to a Place 6 or 8?
Quote: DJTeddybearIf you're dealing at that table, do you move it? Ask? Or do nothing?
I always advise the player that the Place bets are better values than the Big-6/Big-8 bets - everytime.
That was until three years ago, when we (Fiesta) removed the Big-6, Big-8 bets by our own accord, and as a benefit to the players - which of course got no regonition anywhere for that positive step.
Quote: DJTeddyBearDoes your answer change if the player is a jerk vs a nice guy who is tipping you?
No - the bet is still a poor bet no matter who plays it, and as dealers the bet was a wate of our time - for everyone.
Quote: DJTeddybearIf that same player put down $25, would you give him $1 change and place it for $24?
Yes - if okay with the player. That was the recommendation our dealers gave every time, as a better value; we pretty much forced its removal years ago.
Quote: DJteddyBearWhat is the rule on Pai Gow Poker when a player fouls his hand? I'm not talking about a decision by a floorman who might be in a good mood. Nor am I talking about when the player is banking. I'm talking about the standard rule. Does the hand get set to house way, or does the player lose? In every rule sheet I've seen, the house does NOT fix the player's mistake.
At Fiesta, 100% of the time a new player gets to reset his hand at least once, if:
1. Player acknowledges an innocent mistake made in good faith, and the hand gets reset by the house way that we ourselves use.
2. gets advised by the floorman that if "he has any question as to how to set a hand, he may get advice by the dealer or other players who have finished setting their hands."
Player catches a break, and also knows how to handle a situation where a hand is hard for him to set.
A player may also request at any time that the dealer set his hand.
If a player continues to not ask for assistance, and continues to foul, he will lose the next hand or two, then be backed off as a disruption, since he can ask.
Quote: BJTeddybearBut I'm suddenly really curious about one thing:
What's the rule on EZ Pai Gow if a player fouls his hand?
The fouled-hand rule is decided by the house, not by the strategy: depends on the house.
I have game ground rules for it along with the strategy on EZ Pai Gow's "official" house way (Customer houses may use any house way that want, though.)
[See the Notes on the bottom - how many house ways do this for the player?
Quote: Paigowdan*snips*
If the dealer moved it to the place 6 or 8, do you know he could get yelled at by the player: "Hey! What are you doing!! I didn't make a place 8 bet, - I bet the Big 8, dammit!" see it all the time.
what's wrong with paying 7 to 6 if the bet is divisible by 6? player complain about that too?[g]
Quote:
The fouled-hand rule is decided by the house, not by the strategy: depends on the house.
I have game ground rules for it along with the strategy on EZ Pai Gow's "official" house way (Customer houses may use any house way that want, though.)
I thought a 'fouled hand' was just that you set the front pair higher.
Quote: odiousgambitwhat's wrong with paying 7 to 6 if the bet is divisible by 6? player complain about that too?
Big-6 and Big-8 bets always pay even money, and never pays out extra like a Place-6 or Place-8. That's why it is a BAD value sucker bet.
Quote: odiousgambitI thought a 'fouled hand' was just that you set the front pair higher.
It is! it's just that the house decides how that situation should be handled as a rule (- to allow a re-do or Mulligan for the player, or to just take the player's money - too bad for the player, etc.)
Quote: PaigowdanI'm just saying that if you go into a casino and would become outraged if the dealer cheated you, then why try to condone player cheating yourself?
Surely you're not suggesting that any player who profits from any employee error is a crook. What if the oddsmaker in the casino sportsbook makes a foolish error setting the line? Is it unethical for a player to profit from the error?
A bookmaker's error on the official posted line is fair play. That's his homework, that's HIS play of the hand.
For that matter a weak House way in Pai Gow Poker that is beatable by strong play is honest player winnings, too.
Depends if it was done by the rules, or by a gun - or by marking cards or adding loaded dice.
Quote: PaigowdanThanks Dave, but I'm not wond up or anything.
I'm just saying that if you go into a casino and would become outraged if the dealer cheated you, then why try to condone player cheating yourself?
SHOW ME ONE CASINO REGULATION THAT STATES USING ALL THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE, SO LONG AS IT DOES NOT INVOLVE DEALER COLLUSION, IS CHEATING!!!! You keep saying cheating but to me if a dealer makes his hole card visible, you have no obligation of any sort to NOT use that information. Cheating is trading cards with a neighbor. Cheating is altering your bet after you have your cards. Seeing the card made visible to you BY THE CASINO is not cheating. You may not like it, you may feel it is unethical, you may think many things.... but is NOT cheating.
If you're inching down to peek at the dealer's hole cards, or using a mirror in a pinky ring to do so (both have been done).
Sometimes people make the hole cards known by daubing invisible ink on them. Many things have been done. Where to draw the line??!!
Some people might think that's okay.
I would say:
1. You are a cheat using - or trying to get - newly available information.
2. Casino Security may apprehend you and hold you for police. You may get arrested.
3. Casino may file charges, or publicly post you "in the book" as a casino cheat.
4. Surveillance tapes, and testimony from floormen and casino dealers (such as myself) can and will be used as part of the process.
5. Casino regulations will be shown to you and your lawyer.
6. If you avoid jail, you will still have an arrest record and a mug shot, a la Lindsay Lohan or Larry King.
We arrested a guy a week ago at one of our crap tables. (I was off that night on vacation). Long story.
It doesn't matter what I like/don't like/what have you, SooPoo.
In fact it doesn't matter what I think.
If I think the rules were violated, I notify the floor, the floor handles it from there, and surveillance films it. I often let on not a clue.
The floorman may come and ask you to leave, or in some cases Security may come and hold you, to be booked at Central Booking.
Depends what happens. Each situation is different.
Nobody's arresting anybody for seeing a hole card. In fact, I stated in an earlier thread that if a dealer's hole card was exposed, we allow the hand to be played out full-exposure, allowing players to hit until they can beat the dealer's hand, and then we push (no loss) any player who happened to bust.
What I said is that there are many fine-line areas on cheating and ethics, and taking steps to get an unfair advantage is both unethical and may be illegal.
Sometimes, and very occasionally [sic] players cross the line with their egos and their money on the line, and they get backed off - or even arrested. This is all right in some circumstances if the offense is great enough.
In talking with many old-time dealers and old-school floormen and pit bosses, I'm actually relatively mild.
1. Play by the rules, and.
2. Never at any time backroom anyone. Let the floor and surveillance handle it. They won't do so either, but at worst they'll call the police and keep a copy of the surveillance tapes and statements. People try some outrageous stuff, - even gamblers! :)
Edit:
Quote: kpI hope I never play in your casino if they believe like you that I should be back-roomed and arrested for accidentally seeing a dealer's hole card.
Never said that. See above, players get a free pass if the dealer had clearly flashed his hole card. Use a mirror to see the hole card, or mark the cards with ink, then you got something different.
As for enforcing the rules, we're pretty lenient. See how we handle fouled hands in Pai Gow Poker - we reset and pay, etc., along with openly flashed hole cards as above, etc. We give more Mulligans than anyone can think of.
But if you seriously cross the line at any casino, things can clamp down. This is a tough point to agree on.
But in this post:
Quote: Paigowdan1. You are a cheat using - or trying to get - newly available information.
I took it to mean that you think anyone just "using" hole card information, even if it was accidentally obtained without using cheating devices, then they are just as guilty as someone using a pinkie mirror, etc.
Use a pinky ring mirror, or mark the cards with invisible ink (red sunglasses at night?) , or lower your head to the table level (at eye-level - cheek to the layout!) to peek the hold card (and then say, "Oh! I was just adjusting my chair!!") it's undefendable cheating. Seen it - call the floor!
If a break-in dealer is new at the job, and is exposing his/her hole card after a couple of rounds - then say something, at least in the sense the sense of "stealing candy from a ababy." If you say that "it's just the evil casino trying to take my money," you can also say it's also a 24-year old woman just out of dealer's school, trying to feed her baby and pay her rent on a new job, and you'd be taking that from her - and from her life in the same way. You'd think nothing about that. Never gets looked at that way. See it all the time. Would you be happy to get her fired for an $30 extra in your pocket tonight, even though she'll get to be dealing fine in four or five days out?
True gamblers never looked at it that way.
Quote: PaigowdanA bookmaker's error on the official posted line is fair play. That's his homework, that's HIS play of the hand.
For that matter a weak House way in Pai Gow Poker that is beatable by strong play is honest player winnings, too.
Suppose a blackjack player stands on a hard 14 because the dealer's up card is 3. The dealer draws a 5, a 4 and then another 5 for a total of 17. But the dealer makes a foolish arithmetic mistake and thinks she only has 16, so she hits it one more time and busts. Your opinion is that an honest player ought to speak up and return the money.
I mentioned in my previous post that Nevada casinos earn $500 million annually from player error in blackjack. But we don't know the nature of these errors. Some of these errors were made because the player was ignorant of basic strategy. On the other hand, some of these errors were made by players who had memorized basic strategy, but they made a foolish arithmetic error: they thought they had a 16 but really they had a 17. The casinos don't distinguish between an arithmetic error and a strategy error; the casinos keep the money either way. If the casinos don't have a moral obligation to distinguish between different types of errors, why must the player?
Quote: renoSuppose a blackjack player stands on a hard 14 because the dealer's up card is 3. The dealer draws a 5, a 4 and then another 5 for a total of 17. But the dealer makes a foolish arithmetic mistake and thinks she only has 16, so she hits it one more time and busts. Your opinion is that an honest player ought to speak up and return the money.
Yes, I would. In March of 2006, I was a break in dealer at the River Palms Casino in Laughlin Nevada, and I made the same mistake dealing blackjack, nervous as hell. A player caught it, and saved my job, neither wanting the dirty money or to see me get fired 6 days into a new job and career. I will remember this man and this event for the rest of my life.
Quote: renoI mentioned in my previous post that Nevada casinos earn $500 million annually from player error in blackjack.
1. Player error may happen - but are you claiming to say here that this is dealer/casino malfeasance theft in any way, - when honest dealer errors (such as Dealer-exposed hole cards) are routine given to the player? We lose $500 million a year also to player cheating/player claiming.
2. Casinos go out of their way to re-do fouled hands, to give player wins on dealer-error exposed hole cards ("players may hit until the bet the dealer's hand, and if they bust - they get a push!")
3. How much is lost to player theft/cheating rings - on occasion or even routinely defended in gamblers forums? You have a figure for that? Yes or no.
Quote: renoBut we don't know the nature of these errors. Some of these errors were made because the player was ignorant of basic strategy.
Yes, that is true. And that would be the players' fault, considering how hard the wizard of odds, Max Rubin, Anthony Curtis, and all these gaming forums (www.blackjackinfo.com, www.wizardofodds.com, blackjack forum, etc., etc., etc.) educate people on the gamblers side. I see no major effort to educate dealers after dealing school, and I use these very same gamblers sites, too....So, I would say that "players errors".....well, would finally have to be declared as players errors in that case. Duh. Perhaps there comes a point where players errors...are finally owned by the players who commit these errors without any damn excuses.
- players may ask for the basic strategy or "book play" whenever uncertain. Dealer gives the standard strategy play in BJ - or sets the players hand to the house way in Pai Gow Poker and in Pai Gow tiles.
- players may ask fellow players for advice as to play a hand.
- players may buy a basic strategy card to guide their play - and use them at the table during play.
- players may elect not to drink, but if offered free alcohol, they claim it is a plot to take there money (if free drinks) - or that the casinos are cheap ass bastards at casinos where they have to pay for their drinks.
Quote: renoOn the other hand, some of these errors were made by players who had memorized basic strategy, but they made a foolish arithmetic error: they thought they had a 16 but really they had a 17. The casinos don't distinguish between an arithmetic error and a strategy error; the casinos keep the money either way.
How could they determine otherwise? If a player makes an error when he can ask for hand-setting advice, and then petition the floor for a one-off redo or push, then how many times can a player say "I made a MENTAL bet - I MEANT to play it the OTHER way, ahem!" Would YOU as a player give THIS back to the casino? I don't think so. This far, we cannot go.
Quote:If the casinos don't have a moral obligation to distinguish between different types of errors, why must the player?
Because both the player and the casino have to play by the rules, - and by how the cards were actually dealt, - aside from constant excuses for errors which may be often deliberate on EITHER side simply by saying -
"Opps! I MEANT to play it that way....It had a mental bet....I made a mistake, please give me my money back, I'm sorry, " etc.
We all have to play by the same rules,
I think you're a stand up guy with a lot of integrity.
I don't think this thread started out as "lets go nail the casino". You know that in reality that a dealer that regularly, even unintentionally lets players, peek at their hole card won't last long. So, really this has become a pissing match of sorts. If the player, on the very rare occasion, gets a peek at the dealers whole card, so what! Is Vegas going to roll up the sidewalks because some player won $5, when he/she should have lost it? I doubt it. In fact, I don't know if seeing the dealers hole card guarantees the player a win(someone will have to do some math for that one). I think this intended to be for a non-gambler type that doesn't even know what basic strategy is or kinda sorta knows it, but I could be wrong. More like a 'how should I react if that happens and I'm at the table?" type thing. Will I be busted for cheating, when there is no intention on my part? or whatever.
and I hope you know that I was messing with you with the cheap ass bastards remark! ;-)
Of course!
I was just having fun with things, because you can see how far things can go one way or the other when someone's personal money is on the line!:
If a player saw a hole-card - as a one-off thing from an experienced dealer who almost nevers does that, he doesn't notice, floor doesn't notice, no need to call the Pentagon!
But I literally here some things..."What's WRONG with marking cards if I can get away with it??" or "I took my field bet back after I rolled a six! I mean...it would have lost...right??" and these are said with straight faces, I kid you not.
a Few weeks ago, a floor lady at Sunset Station was telling me of a player who came to the Roulette table, used his $25 FREE BET coupon that he got in the mail...and he bet RED...anyway, a ZERO was spun, - so the dealer took the coupon. It simply lost.
He was shocked - SHOCKED! that, well, he bet and lost of all things.
He was arguing for 20 minutes, saying "but it was a FREE BET coupon - how COULD IT HAVE LOST!
And she was trying to explain...."IF a zero is spun, the RED and the BLACK bets lose, and it was a bet in action......
I have literally seen and had people say to me:
"I do not understand WHY I have to lose the casino - when my bet had actually LOST! I made the bet- AND EXPECTED IT TO WIN! BUT THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!
I mean...If I had won, then YOU would have paid ME!
But I had lost my bet - and you TOOK it! From ME! - How DARE you!
@@#$% !! Thieves!
Quote: FleaStiffWhat did the jerk want to do with that free bet coupon... keep betting the same darn coupon all night long until it won?
Probably! Funny isn't it?
Quote: PaigowdanNever said that. See above, players get a free pass if the dealer had clearly flashed his hole card. Use a mirror to see the hole card, or mark the cards with ink, then you got something different.
As for enforcing the rules, we're pretty lenient. See how we handle fouled hands in Pai Gow Poker - we reset and pay, etc., along with openly flashed hole cards as above, etc. We give more Mulligans than anyone can think of.
But if you seriously cross the line at any casino, things can clamp down. This is a tough point to agree on.
I took those same comments exactly as KP did. I'm going to start a new interesting thread talking about the line between work and ethics (eventually). I find in my job as a retail manager there are a LOT of grey areas, and frankly, when I give some examples, you guys will all think I'm a jerk. But when I explain my side as a MANAGER, it'll make sense. But you won't see it that way, b/c like you, I'm a customer as well, and I don't always agree with policies.
Dan, I will both be defending what you say on here as well as criticizing how you put some of your wording. I think you make a ton of valid points, but honestly, you take a casino-line hard stance on a forum where most of the players probably don't agree with what's going on. There's a lot to be said on both sides and I hope my new thread can talk about how we often at work (not just casinos) have to argue one thing while we may believe something different, and even if we do believe something that may seem wrong to others, how we deal with it from that point on.
I hope to have the new thread up later tonight, but I have to get up early tomorrow morning and may not have time to finish all of them. I hope its a fruitful discussion.
To think that casinos are somehow intrinsically protected from players using their eyes and brains is ludicrous. If a casino wants to boot me for reading a dealer's hole card, I'm fine with that. It's their property and it's their right to not let me play their games of "chance." But to suggest that I'm somehow cheating the casino by sitting at a table and using the information available to me (by fine-tuned observation, or luck, or whatever) is offensive and ridiculous, even coming from a casino employee. Incidentally, I'm not one to fall back on legal status to attempt to prove ethicality, but anyone that knows a thing or two about this subject knows that there are several very unambiguous legal precedents regarding hole card playguess which side the judges decided in favor of?
I understand that this subject may hit closer to home than many casino dealers would like. I respect dealers, and I know that they're just trying to make a living. You may be surprised to know that many of the most profitable dealers that I've run into are long-time, experienced dealers that are not "sloppy" at all; they just make one or two crucial mistakes. I stay under the radar not just because I don't need the heat but also because I don't want to see anyone catch the wrath of the shift manager for making a simple mistake. And if you're still not convinced that I'm a human at heart, I even toke, too! But at the end of the day, I do my best to treat these people as they would treat meby taking as much of their money as possible, and with a smile.
I did not say if you see a hole card then you are cheating. Re-read the thread. Indeed, I pointed out if a dealer has flashing his hole card, or even dropped his hole card, on the action of NO PLAYERS' part - then NO cheating was committed. In fact, I also pointed out that the floor supervision at our casino WILL:
- ALLOW the dealer to play is hand EXPOSED for all players to see and benefit; and,
- allow players to hit until they can BEAT the dealers hand - and get paid, and;
- if a player busts, he has NO LOSS.
Such a deal. NOT cheating here
Lonesome - Are we CLEAR on that?
NOW...If a player deliberately TRIES to see the hole card to knowledge of it via action (READ: marking the cards with invisible ink, using a small mirror, using a cell phone camera, etc.)
Then that is cheating.
No, if's, ands, or but.
Do you see this distinction?
And no, this is not "using your brains," because if you get caught above the radar - using a deliberate action, then yes, casinos are intriniscally protected from this, when they catch you in the act and can prove it.
Believe me, I am indeed convinced you are human at heart, and even human through and through, which is also pretty much dog-eat-dog in this world.
As you said about your belief in people - your quote:
Quote: LonesomeGamblerI do my best to treat these people as they would treat meby taking as much of their money as possible, and with a smile.
This is how:
1. You believe how people treat you, and
2. How you'd openly operate yourself - in the treatment of others.
Most dealers:
- do not cheat, and
- do not care at all about "taking people's money" or "giving people money." Not a cent of the casino's bankroll is the dealers, and neither is the players' chips the dealers either.
Most dealers do not have excess love for either the casino managers or the casino players equally. What they care about is their wives, their husbands, their sons, and their daughters, their hobbies, their pasttime, their movie collections, etc.
Dealers do not think in terms of "Casino money" or "Players' Money" above and beyond suiting up, showing up, and seeing that there's no cheating EITHER WAY (which is actually the dealer's job).
To think that dealers want to take as much of their money is not how the dealers think, despite accusations from gamblers. And casino managers may think that dealers are trying to take as much of their money, which is why we wear aprons around our pants pockets, and casino shirts with no pockets..
This is how Players think about the casino owners, and is how the Casino Owners may think against the players, and dealers see both sides.
Dealers often think that both the managers and the players are either equally evil, or guilty, or accusatory, or self-serving, or what have you. Dealers are caught in the middle two sides accusing one another.
If you say "I do my best to treat these people as they would treat meby taking as much of their money as possible, and with a smile."
Then I cannot tell if you are a gambler or a casino owner by that statement, but you are certainly not a dealer.
Quote: PaigowdanNo -
Use a pinky ring mirror, or mark the cards with invisible ink (red sunglasses at night?) , or lower your head to the table level (at eye-level - cheek to the layout!) to peek the hold card (and then say, "Oh! I was just adjusting my chair!!") it's undefendable cheating. Seen it - call the floor!
If a break-in dealer is new at the job, and is exposing his/her hole card after a couple of rounds - then say something, at least in the sense the sense of "stealing candy from a ababy." If you say that "it's just the evil casino trying to take my money," you can also say it's also a 24-year old woman just out of dealer's school, trying to feed her baby and pay her rent on a new job, and you'd be taking that from her - and from her life in the same way. You'd think nothing about that. Never gets looked at that way. See it all the time. Would you be happy to get her fired for an $30 extra in your pocket tonight, even though she'll get to be dealing fine in four or five days out?
True gamblers never looked at it that way.
Do you really expect us to believe that a new dealer making a couple of mistakes while going through the learning process would be fired? I don't buy it. I guess the people that trained her should also be fired.
If that 24 year old woman gets fired under those circumstances, then the casino truly is evil.
Quote: benbakdoff
Do you really expect us to believe that a new dealer making a couple of mistakes while going through the learning process would be fired?
Well, believe it, it's routine. "Break-in houses" are basically hire-and-fire shops.
Exactly what kind of security do you think dealers have?
It takes about six months experience to get good enough to be comfortable
Quote: benbakdoffI don't buy it.
You don't have to.
Quote: benbakdoffI guess the people that trained her should also be fired.
They frequently are.
Quote: benbakdoffIf that 24 year old woman gets fired under those circumstances, then the casino truly is evil.
No, but the particular floor supervisor or shift manager responsible absolutely is.
The point that I am trying to make is that gaming operations is quite a rough and rude business.
Ben, what do you do for a living?
I mean really, working in gaming operations isn't like being a florist or book editor at a publisher.
Constant money, nerves, and stess are constantly on the line, with floormen and shift managers alike sweating the money and jobs.
There are a number of comfortable pockets in the industry, but generally, front-line gaming operations can be nasty with little job protection.
Ask any dealer if "a trip to the shift office may involve some risk."
I've been at my casino for five years, which is a very long time for a dealer.
In that time FIVE Casino managers have come and gone, and forget about floor supervisors, shift managers, the fellow dealers, etc.
AND I work for a remarkably kind and friendly casino house, one of the least rude places in the industry, very decent.
Quote: PaigowdanNo -
Use a pinky ring mirror, or mark the cards with invisible ink (red sunglasses at night?) , or lower your head to the table level (at eye-level - cheek to the layout!) to peek the hold card (and then say, "Oh! I was just adjusting my chair!!") it's undefendable cheating. Seen it - call the floor!
If a break-in dealer is new at the job, and is exposing his/her hole card after a couple of rounds - then say something, at least in the sense the sense of "stealing candy from a ababy." If you say that "it's just the evil casino trying to take my money," you can also say it's also a 24-year old woman just out of dealer's school, trying to feed her baby and pay her rent on a new job, and you'd be taking that from her - and from her life in the same way. You'd think nothing about that. Never gets looked at that way. See it all the time. Would you be happy to get her fired for an $30 extra in your pocket tonight, even though she'll get to be dealing fine in four or five days out?
True gamblers never looked at it that way.
The CASINO has the responsibility to not put incompetent dealers on the floor. It is not any player's responsibility to teach the CASINO's employee how to deal. How is it possible that a dealer is allowed to deal and NOT be taught how to deal without making their hole card visible? By the way- I read your house ways--- it is of course stronger than all the casino's I play in. I'm glad they don't use yours!
