Professional Gamblers
For me to consider someone a professional gambler their primary source of income needs to be gambling, and they need to consistently be making enough yearly income to support themselves by playing +EV games.
Are there any other games you can find in a casino where people make a living nowadays?
Both Bob Dancer and Jerry Logan (Singer), at least, claim to be able to make a living from VP.
Quote: NareedDo you include VP in poker?
Both Bob Dancer and Jerry Logan (Singer), at least, claim to be able to make a living from VP.
I don't think either Logan or Singer (or both if you prefer to think of them as one entity) claimed to make a living from it. Just a lot of money. Subtle difference, no doubt.
Quote: NareedDo you include VP in poker?
Both Bob Dancer and Jerry Logan (Singer), at least, claim to be able to make a living from VP.
I would not include VP. There are machines that can be played profitably, but they are only available at lower limits. There has been at least one notable occasion where a casino screwed up and put a + EV VP in the high roller room, but the chances of finding a machine like this are few and far between. As far as I know there are no documented cases of players making a living off of VP.
If a casino sees a VP machine is consistently losing money they are not going to be stupid enough to leave it out.
Quote: iwannaiguanaI was just thinking about all the kinds of professional gamblers. I can only think of 3: blackjack, poker, and sports betting.
For me to consider someone a professional gambler their primary source of income needs to be gambling, and they need to consistently be making enough yearly income to support themselves by playing +EV games.
Are there any other games you can find in a casino where people make a living nowadays?
I think that I've mentioned on here before that I had an uncle who made his living handicapping thoroughbred racehorses. Somebody else replied that his uncle had also made a living doing the same thing. So there's one other kind of professional gambler playing a positive EV game.
Lyle Stuart was supposed to have been a professional baccarat player, but also made money publishing. The idea of playing baccarat professionally seems bizarre to me, and baccarat is my favourite game.
Quote: kpHow about being a casino owner?
That didn't work out so well for Sam Nazarian, did it?
Quote: iwannaiguanaIf a casino sees a VP machine is consistently losing money they are not going to be stupid enough to leave it out.
Fair enough. But a skilled player can win while many others lose and still the machine would turn a profit.
How about this. Would you consider a person who plays VP and publishes books about it to be a professional gambler, provided all his income is derived from play and books about VP?
Quote: NareedWould you consider a person who plays VP and publishes books about it to be a professional gambler, provided all his income is derived from play and books about VP?
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Or write books.
Hey even the WIZ is published.
Much more difficult with parimutual pools with huge takeouts like you have in the US but when you have bookmakers, betting exchanges and a much smaller 17% takeout of the pools it's a lot more possible.
Quote: NareedFair enough. But a skilled player can win while many others lose and still the machine would turn a profit.
How about this. Would you consider a person who plays VP and publishes books about it to be a professional gambler, provided all his income is derived from play and books about VP?
I still maintain that there are not +EV machines out there where a player can make minimum wage. I would not consider said player to be a professional because he made his money on books and not on playing.
I would agree that selling books, betting methods, etc. is usually far more lucrative than the actual practice itself. If people made enough money gambling they wouldn't need to write books on how to do it.
Quote: iwannaiguanaI would agree that selling books, betting methods, etc. is usually far more lucrative than the actual practice itself. If people made enough money gambling they wouldn't need to write books on how to do it.
They wouldn't need to for the money, but they might need to for other reasons. Or they may just want to write about it.
Quote: NareedThey wouldn't need to for the money, but they might need to for other reasons. Or they may just want to write about it.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. There are certainly reputable books out there on blackjack and poker written by players who were extremely successful. But it's the exception not the rule.
Quote: gofaster87If I had the money to bankroll a play that big I would be doing other things in life besides playing VP. This example is extreme but there have been many lucrative plays in the high denominations.
I tend to agree with iwannaiguana, but I get these contrarian moods from tiem to time....
I suppose an AP VP player might do better chasing progressives, perhaps, as well as playing positive EV machines, plus milking comps with multiplier days and such. But if they also write books about it, then it's likley they make a living from their books. As soon as a method that works is known to the public at alrge, you can bet all casinos will fight it somehow.
BTW I've heard that Thorpe, the original card counter, published his book because he wasn't interested in making a living playing BJ. I'm sure his book netted him a tidy sum, too.
Quote: NareedI tend to agree with iwannaiguana, but I get these contrarian moods from tiem to time....
Well after all, disagreeing is just more fun. You make legitimate arguments and good points which is more than can be said for some of the forum.
Quote: iwannaiguanaWell after all, disagreeing is just more fun. You make legitimate arguments and good points which is more than can be said for some of the forum.
Thank you, that's very gracious of you.
I can get very difficult and point out remote, ridiculous possibilities, too, but when I do it's usually in jest. As to VP, perhaps it was easier in the past, when there were better pay tables, and some holdouts from the era now make a living publishing VP books.
Quote: AceCrAAckersYou missed the most obvious. The stock market.
Ah, but I did say games you can find in a casino didn't I? ;)
Quote: kpSomeone needs to design what looks and acts like a slot machine but actually does day trading.
lol I'd play it
Quote: iwannaiguanalol I'd play it
How about something that looks and acts like it's a day trading terminal but is actually a slot machine?
Quote: AceCrAAckersYou missed the most obvious. The stock market.
I thought of that, too, but wasn't sure that it was positive EV. Never seems like it for me, anyway.
Quote: Nareed
How about this. Would you consider a person who plays VP and publishes books about it to be a professional gambler, provided all his income is derived from play and books about VP?
You'd have to include people who sell "betting systems" for roulette as well then ...
Quote: weaselmanYou'd have to include people who sell "betting systems" for roulette as well then ...
I don't know. Do they make any money from playing their system? This would aply to all system slesmen, including dice setters/controllers. Of course if you asked them they'd say yes.
Pool, mostly.
I've heard of people making a lot of money hustling at golf, too.
Some say that golf was invented for the betting that went on.Quote: MrVI've heard of people making a lot of money hustling at golf, too.
Anecdotal information is available on some famous golfing bettors. A few years ago a Texas millionaire hired a hit man through two golfing-buddy intermediaries to kill his ex-wife in Florida. The extensive investigation of the two golf hustlers provided some more reliable data concerning their income. It seems though that except for the exceptionally well known players, golf makes money for: club designers, caddies and real estate developers.
Most successful sports bettor, ever (hello, computers).
Golf course designer.
Loves to hustle at golf, typically with friends / cronies.
A gambler who always gambles, typically successfully.
Lives the Gambling Life the way it *should* be done.
Quote: MrV
I've heard of people making a lot of money hustling at golf, too.
They say Doyle Brunsun was the best golf hustler of them all.
His secret was, he never choked on the final holes, no matter
how much money was at stake. Just like at the poker table.
Quote: ClownkeeperMaybe this would be a good idea for reality TV. Give 4 or 5 contestents $50,000 each to live and gamble on for season/year to see if it can be done. Cant be any worse than watching people sell their stuff to a pawn shop.
Don't try it with five dolts off the street; you'd need to find some contestants who actually have a clue, as well as some discipline.
I'd like to see "famous" personalities such as The Wiz, Wong, Scoblete, and Patrick enlisted to do it.
That would be fun. The dolts would lose all of it in a heartbeat. You could have an amazing race type thing. You have to play poker, dice, blackjack, video poker, horses, sports, prop bets etc.Quote: MrVDon't try it with five dolts off the street; you'd need to find some contestants who actually have a clue, as well as some discipline.
I'd like to see "famous" personalities such as The Wiz, Wong, Scoblete, and Patrick enlisted to do it.
Quote: ClownkeeperMaybe this would be a good idea for reality TV. Give 4 or 5 contestents $50,000 each to live and gamble on for season/year to see if it can be done. Cant be any worse than watching people sell their stuff to a pawn shop.
Make it 10 or so, and each week they have to pay rent/food bill. If they pay, food and nice accomadation is paid for. All other expenses 9travel/gambling comes out of their nut. Any who can't, get axed from the show. You can have a mix of average joe's, 'professionals' and degenerates. Put in a few special challenges (trip to races, No Limit poker tourney) with some extra cash added in.
I've wanted to do a Vegas challenge where everyone goes out with $100 (or $50), ID and a book of coupons and everyone comes back X hours later to see who has the most left.
Yes. but you could turn into a quest for the Big Prize with each of these very small samples contributing to the project.Quote: hook3670Now obviously it was a very small sample
Quote: iwannaiguanaI was just thinking about all the kinds of professional gamblers. I can only think of 3: blackjack, poker, and sports betting.
Are there any other games you can find in a casino where people make a living nowadays?
Okay, a few posters are willing to add Video Poker but most are not since its simply too difficult to find a real full pay machine and too difficult to get actual time at it since such machines are being hogged all the time.
So lets get to the nitty gritty.
Blackjack: Do people really play Blackjack for a living? They are undoubtedly going to have to be counters and if so they must be "heat dodgers" who alter their play when needed.
Poker: Is this limited to grinding out pennies stealing blinds and meeting occasional visiting fish? Low limit games wherein a night's "wages" makes Pornslapper look interesting.
Sports Betting: Massive bankroll to start must be a requirement, correct?
So overall, its really something you do for fun because darn few can do it for a living. Small time card counting at blackjack seems a fools errand, poker takes heaps of practice, sports betting can be fun but without massive capital its a bit of a joke to think it can be a career.
Quote: FleaStiff
Blackjack: Do people really play Blackjack for a living? They are undoubtedly going to have to be counters and if so they must be "heat dodgers" who alter their play when needed.
BJ teams are still around and they make money,
but I think most of it is in Europe and Asia. Its
very hard to make serious money in Vegas playing
BJ. All you need is any kind of rep and you're done.
Quote: ClownkeeperMaybe this would be a good idea for reality TV. Give 4 or 5 contestents $50,000 each to live and gamble on for season/year to see if it can be done. Cant be any worse than watching people sell their stuff to a pawn shop.
Currently, gambling is hated among the US worse than Satan...so this would never fly.
However, I sure in the hell would watch it.
I would agree with the other poster..give them challenges and immunity from getting axed..similar to other reality shows...
I think there IS one like this..except it's just someone following around Phil Ivey (Called "Life of Ivey")
Quote: TIMSPEEDCurrently, gambling is hated among the US worse than Satan...so this would never fly.
Really?
Gambling is hated?
Tell that to the hordes who pack the tribal and other casinos that dot the land.
Hate to lose, maybe ...
Quote: FleaStiffSome people seem to hustle prediction markets too.
Interesting! That would be a show I'd watch.
Quote: MrVReally?
Gambling is hated?
Tell that to the hordes who pack the tribal and other casinos that dot the land.
Hate to lose, maybe ...
Trust me they hate the GAMBLING part of it...they're their for the booze and social interaction...
A lot of people I work with, go to the local indian casino frequently...but when I mention I go to Reno frequently, it's all of a sudden I'm THE WORST HUMAN ALIVE!
It's no different...except I'm GETTING something for my money, where they are getting NOTHING (Indian casino = bad payback and NO comps/mailers)
