Table Games Legislation in PA
December 17th, 2009 at 4:25:31 AM
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Below is a link to both the History an the latest Printers Number of Senate Bill #711 regarding Table Games in PA. Briefly, yesterday it passed the PA House and now is going back to the Senate (whether the Democrats--and this is a Democrat initiative--have the votes is an open question).
My apologies for not knowing how to attach the hyperlink directly:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/bill_history.cfm?syear=2009&sind=0&body=S&type=B&bn=711
My apologies for not knowing how to attach the hyperlink directly:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/bill_history.cfm?syear=2009&sind=0&body=S&type=B&bn=711
Nemo Omnibus Horis Sapit
December 17th, 2009 at 5:17:56 AM
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Quote: NiblickMy apologies for not knowing how to attach the hyperlink directly:
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/bill_history.cfm?syear=2009&sind=0&body=S&type=B&bn=711
Click on the "click here for formatting codes" and just play around with it using "preview". Rocket Science it ain't!
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/billinfo/bill_history.cfm?syear=2009&sind=0&body=S&type=B&bn=711
BTW, Maryland Slots is getting to be big yawn. Not that I had great hopes.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
December 17th, 2009 at 9:14:14 AM
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The thing is, when I formatted the URL/hyperlink I was not going to the proper page; I fared far better with the copy/paste.
Guess I need to keep practicing.
In any event, from what I gather, Delaware is supposed to be getting table games sometime in the spring. For what it's worth, the Racing/Sports Betting in DE is now up and running--the set-up at Dover is actually quite nice. Clearly, it's not what you get at a place like the Bellagio but still nice.
Guess I need to keep practicing.
In any event, from what I gather, Delaware is supposed to be getting table games sometime in the spring. For what it's worth, the Racing/Sports Betting in DE is now up and running--the set-up at Dover is actually quite nice. Clearly, it's not what you get at a place like the Bellagio but still nice.
Nemo Omnibus Horis Sapit
December 17th, 2009 at 9:27:23 AM
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Ohio passed table games in November, and of course Atlantic City and Buffalo have them.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:30:27 AM
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I don't have super high hopes that table games will be all that good in PA; the taxes placed on the casinos are very high, and the profit margins are low compared to casinos elsewhere. I would expect to see the lowest possible pay charts in effect on table games here.
A falling knife has no handle.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:48:12 AM
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I think each casino will have different rules and games. I'm surprised that the Bally's Single Player Roulette machines at Philadelphia Park are all Single Zero (and there are a LOT of them!). The ones at the PA Sands in Bethlehem are all Double Zero. I can't recall if they were Single or Double at Penn National, but there were very few. As a Craps player, the only place they can shave where I'm going to play is the free odds. They can do whatever they want to the center of the table. AC is almost universally 5x (10x at Bally's) so I'm thinking it will be 5x there. It's pretty obvious where they take their cues.
Off topic, in Atlantic City, you do see those machines some places...Harrah's has a bank of Single Zero and a Bank of Double Zero, roughly 200 feet apart, same betting limits. There are nearly ALWAYS people playing the Double Zero game when I see seats available at the Single Zero game.
Off topic, in Atlantic City, you do see those machines some places...Harrah's has a bank of Single Zero and a Bank of Double Zero, roughly 200 feet apart, same betting limits. There are nearly ALWAYS people playing the Double Zero game when I see seats available at the Single Zero game.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:54:23 AM
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Quote: MoscaI don't have super high hopes that table games will be all that good in PA; the taxes placed on the casinos are very high, and the profit margins are low compared to casinos elsewhere. I would expect to see the lowest possible pay charts in effect on table games here.
Sadly so true. Some ad was on the radio and it stated to call your legislature and tell them to keep the tax at 16% or whatever. I expect the greedy state to take near 50% just like slots.
To put those numbers in prespective, even the Spilotro/Rosenthal/Vandemark slot skim at the Strdust in the 1970s only took about 33%.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
December 17th, 2009 at 9:58:28 AM
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Quote: cclub79
Off topic, in Atlantic City, you do see those machines some places...Harrah's has a bank of Single Zero and a Bank of Double Zero, roughly 200 feet apart, same betting limits. There are nearly ALWAYS people playing the Double Zero game when I see seats available at the Single Zero game.
At The Meadows near Pittsburgh I was that. The "group" Roulette was "00" but across the floor there were single-player "0" machines. I wondered why anyone would play the other, but then I remembered 90% of gamblers don't take the time to get the best play.
The place must think people are idiots--the best VP I could find was 7/5. I'll never be back there! The only reason was to kill time before a BJ Dealing gig down the street.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
December 17th, 2009 at 10:21:11 AM
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I dunno if the tax rate will make THAT much of a difference...from what I understand the tax rate on table games in nearby West Virginia is rather high (something like 33%), yet their rules aren't too bad (BJ pays 3:2 and dealer stands on soft 17, 10x odds in craps). I do think they make up for it by making their slot machines very tight, though.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
December 17th, 2009 at 10:29:08 AM
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Quote: OneAngryDwarfI dunno if the tax rate will make THAT much of a difference...from what I understand the tax rate on table games in nearby West Virginia is rather high (something like 33%), yet their rules aren't too bad (BJ pays 3:2 and dealer stands on soft 17, 10x odds in craps). I do think they make up for it by making their slot machines very tight, though.
Do you play in WV? I've played the poker room but not the tables. At a monte-carlo night" a player or other dealer told me, "You can't split AA there."
I assume them mean you can't RE-split AA there as even with the tightest rules splitting AA is understood to be among the best plays available.
I also usually don't put the most faith in the advice I get there. One dealer who also deals at a real casino insisted outcome could be altered by how 3rd base played. I argued it 30 minutes before I realized to argue with the wall would be better.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
December 17th, 2009 at 10:41:56 AM
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Can't split AA? I find that very hard to believe. What are you supposed to do, play it as a 12?
Dealers often have no idea what's going on at other casinos down the street (for example if their rules have changed), so I wouldn't take their word. Other *players*, yes.
Dealers often have no idea what's going on at other casinos down the street (for example if their rules have changed), so I wouldn't take their word. Other *players*, yes.
January 8th, 2010 at 9:37:03 AM
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Table games approved yesterday, will probably appear in PA casinos by September at the latest: http://www.postgazette.com/pg/10008/1026660-454.stm
I would expect AC to largely become a ghost town not long after...
I would expect AC to largely become a ghost town not long after...
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
January 8th, 2010 at 11:09:05 AM
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Wife and I were down at the Sands Bethlehem yesterday; beautiful room, but it was like playing in an empty airplane hangar. No energy, no people. Saw a chart a day or two ago that listed The Sands as the top slot payback casino in PA at 91.4%, but it felt worse than that. Still, they have a nice setup for adding tables, with lots of room to move things around.
Am I alone in preferring the video tables, at least for 3 Card, with 40-30-6-4-1 and no need to tip the screen? Give me those, and some live craps and blackjack, and I'm OK.
Am I alone in preferring the video tables, at least for 3 Card, with 40-30-6-4-1 and no need to tip the screen? Give me those, and some live craps and blackjack, and I'm OK.
A falling knife has no handle.
January 8th, 2010 at 12:15:01 PM
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Quote: MoscaWife and I were down at the Sands Bethlehem yesterday; beautiful room, but it was like playing in an empty airplane hangar. No energy, no people. Saw a chart a day or two ago that listed The Sands as the top slot payback casino in PA at 91.4%, but it felt worse than that. Still, they have a nice setup for adding tables, with lots of room to move things around.
Am I alone in preferring the video tables, at least for 3 Card, with 40-30-6-4-1 and no need to tip the screen? Give me those, and some live craps and blackjack, and I'm OK.
91.4% the top in PA???? No wonder everyone who goes to Rivers says it is a money-sucker.
They just don't get it here in PA.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
January 8th, 2010 at 12:27:13 PM
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Quote: AZDuffman
91.4% the top in PA???? No wonder everyone who goes to Rivers says it is a money-sucker.
They just don't get it here in PA.
Well, they at least managed to get the lower tax rate approved--16% tax for the first year of operation, 14% thereafter. Much lower than the 34% they were originally proposing, which hopefully will translate to better comps and good rules.
Quote: Mosca
Am I alone in preferring the video tables, at least for 3 Card, with 40-30-6-4-1 and no need to tip the screen? Give me those, and some live craps and blackjack, and I'm OK.
Do the video machines there have the Ante Bonus? None of the 3CP machines at either the Rivers or the Meadows do, as far as I can tell. I'm sure that increases the house edge significantly, even with the liberal Pairplus payout.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
January 8th, 2010 at 1:01:59 PM
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Quote: OneAngryDwarfDo the video machines there have the Ante Bonus? None of the 3CP machines at either the Rivers or the Meadows do, as far as I can tell. I'm sure that increases the house edge significantly, even with the liberal Pairplus payout.
I didn't stop at the tables to play, I just assumed they were the same as the machines at The Mohegan at Pocono Downs, which do have the ante bonus.
It's just my opinion, but even with the reasonable pairs plus payback, the game isn't all that much fun played against a video dealer. Part of the appeal of table games in general is the social interaction. I don't go to the casinos to play slots by myself; I went once by myself and felt "unclean", I knew that I didn't have good odds and any thought of winning was desperate. I go because my wife and I like to go together, see each other have fun and maybe win. Same at a table. With everyone sitting around a video, it's like being at a peep show or something. With a live dealer, it's more like playing cards and having fun. Just my opinion, of course.
A falling knife has no handle.
January 8th, 2010 at 1:06:15 PM
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CASINO
PAYBACK
Sands Bethlehem*
91.74
Mount Airy
91.46
Philidelphia Park
91.38
Presque Isle
91.18
Hollywood Casino at Penn National
91.15
The Meadows
90.77
Mohegian Sun at Pocono Downs
90.74
Harrah's Chester
90.74
PAYBACK
Sands Bethlehem*
91.74
Mount Airy
91.46
Philidelphia Park
91.38
Presque Isle
91.18
Hollywood Casino at Penn National
91.15
The Meadows
90.77
Mohegian Sun at Pocono Downs
90.74
Harrah's Chester
90.74
A falling knife has no handle.
January 8th, 2010 at 1:33:47 PM
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Quote: OneAngryDwarfQuote: AZDuffman
91.4% the top in PA???? No wonder everyone who goes to Rivers says it is a money-sucker.
They just don't get it here in PA.
Well, they at least managed to get the lower tax rate approved--16% tax for the first year of operation, 14% thereafter. Much lower than the 34% they were originally proposing, which hopefully will translate to better comps and good rules.Quote: Mosca
Yes, I heard the as on a local station here saying without the 16% it wouldn't work. 55% for the state for slots is criminal--Tony Spilotro's crew only took 34% from the Stardust Slots!
You sound local-have you had the Buffet at Rivers? Or Andrew's Steak House??All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
January 8th, 2010 at 2:15:40 PM
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Quote: AZDuffman
You sound local-have you had the Buffet at Rivers? Or Andrew's Steak House??
I'm local to NE PA; Mohegan Pocono Downs, Mt Airy, and somewhat to the Sands, but yesterday was my first (and last) trip there. We're about 10 minutes from Mohegan. It's been considerably upgraded in the last 2 months, with a lot of new machines that pay a medium number of medium wins; you can now go in with a couple hundred and spend a couple hours, rather than be cashed out in 15 minutes. Still, there's no good video poker. I heard the Ruth's Chris at Mohegan is pulling out; it is a lousy Ruth's Chis, with all the snottiness of the worst RCs and nothing else to offer, the service is typical small town shoddy. The second tier dining spot, The Rustic Kitchen, is really excellent, with a well trained staff, which is a strong endorsement to make in an area that has many excellent Italian restaurants (Mohegan is only 10 miles or so from Old Forge PA). We go to Mohegan most often as part of dining at Rustic Kitchen and playing the machines for an hour or so. We had the Timbers Buffet once; it's OK enough, but I'll spend more to get something worth eating. The extra $10 is what, 3 pulls on a 3 line $1 machine, give or take?
Da Burgh is my home town, and next time we're in we will definitely hit Rivers and explore it. If you have a recommendation, I'm all ears!
A falling knife has no handle.
January 11th, 2010 at 8:47:55 AM
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Quote: MoscaQuote: AZDuffman
You sound local-have you had the Buffet at Rivers? Or Andrew's Steak House??
I'm local to NE PA; Mohegan Pocono Downs, Mt Airy, and somewhat to the Sands, but yesterday was my first (and last) trip there. We're about 10 minutes from Mohegan. It's been considerably upgraded in the last 2 months, with a lot of new machines that pay a medium number of medium wins; you can now go in with a couple hundred and spend a couple hours, rather than be cashed out in 15 minutes. Still, there's no good video poker. I heard the Ruth's Chris at Mohegan is pulling out; it is a lousy Ruth's Chis, with all the snottiness of the worst RCs and nothing else to offer, the service is typical small town shoddy. The second tier dining spot, The Rustic Kitchen, is really excellent, with a well trained staff, which is a strong endorsement to make in an area that has many excellent Italian restaurants (Mohegan is only 10 miles or so from Old Forge PA). We go to Mohegan most often as part of dining at Rustic Kitchen and playing the machines for an hour or so. We had the Timbers Buffet once; it's OK enough, but I'll spend more to get something worth eating. The extra $10 is what, 3 pulls on a 3 line $1 machine, give or take?
Da Burgh is my home town, and next time we're in we will definitely hit Rivers and explore it. If you have a recommendation, I'm all ears!
I have yet to eat at Rivers. I work a weird schedule and if I go after work I will get the ends of the ends. A new job is in the works and that would change it. Actually up at two places, one of which is blocks from Rivers-close enough I am trying to figure if I can park there all day, drop $10 in video BJ and park free if I win.
All I can reccomend is go in summer after they open one of the two new hotels there so you can walk to the casino.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
January 11th, 2010 at 11:19:50 AM
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Quote: MoscaCASINO
PAYBACK
Sands Bethlehem*
91.74
I wouldn't put too much stock in Sands Bethlehem's number yet as they've only been open a few months. They will probably come down to the level of the others in a while.
I predict Mt. Airy will have the highest payback since they have the hotel and golf course and just got a permit to expand their floor. Things are looking good for them.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
