Casinos and Ethics

Recently I have started working in the casino industry doing math (mostly thanks to this forum). My mother is very happy because she studied math in university and uses it to work in advertising, though she is afraid that I am going to get into gambling and lose money. In contrast, my mother's sister (my aunt) thinks that it's really bad that I am working for the casino industry - she says I am ruining families and working for evil thieves.

Personally I don't think anyone I've met in the casino industry is evil, but I do understand where she is coming from I guess. While my aunt told me she disapproved of my job, she was drinking beer, which I said probably causes more societal problems than gambling, but 99% of the population can handle beer without getting addicted so it should be legal and regulated (she disagreed saying gambling is much worse).

Do you think there is anything I can do to convince my aunt that working in this industry is not evil? Or will certain people always disapprove of gambling for various reasons and there is nothing we can do about it? Have any of you faced conflict with people in your life regarding working for the casino industry?

Thanks for reading and have a good night - regards from New York City :)

You might point out to your aunt that casinos are a legalized and better form of an activity that is going to take place regardless. To focus on harm to individuals, I think you can make the case that susceptible people who will get into trouble are going to have this happen to them one way or another, perhaps in a different activity. If they keep to legalized versions of gambling, there is the possibility of help for them that is completely absent otherwise... and the type of trouble should be able to stay clear of things like getting beat up or killed.

Casinos at least require you to take the step of getting out of your house to got into them. The move to bring online versions in so many states means susceptible people can destroy themselves without leaving the house. She should be more concerned about that

yeah, that’s a tough one. some people just have really strong opinions about gambling and nothing will change their mind. sounds like you’re doing honest work and understand both sides, which is what matters most. just keep doing your thing and let your results speak for themselves.

Do they know that Barry Manilow still plays? In his casino residency in Las Vegas. Is he evil?

Where else could this elderly man, who provided part of the soundtrack of the lives of so many older people, continue to play? Casinos have become repositories for the arts, music and entertainment. Donny Osmond plays here. Penn & Teller. David Copperfield (OK, there's a rumor he might be evil!). And many names you don't know; all the magicians, comedians, buskers, dancers. Not evil.

I don't see evil in a casino. Where else can you leave thousands of dollars on a table, go and drain your lizard, and when you come back it's all still there? Would you do that in a church or shul? Would you do that on a university campus? How about in a government office building?

If you want to be really scary to your family- maybe you should try being an AP! You will meet very unusual people and have totally improbable experiences. You probably won't lose money, but there is no guarantee. And you get free tickets to shows. But there is a lot of conflict with those around you. Nobody who isn't also an AP ever really believes you're not just a gambler "with a system."

I had a property manager sneaking into tenant's apartments and stealing their money to go play Black Jack at a local casino. He was eventually arrested and removed from the premises.

There's a lot of guilt to go around in a casino and high minimums too. A lot of people older than a certain age really have an aversion to gambling on religious grounds yet Church Bingo is OK. Take a walk in Atlantic City and people could say the casinos bled the area dry, but I don't know what the deal is down there; just don't walk around where the casinos aren't. Black Jack dealers themselves could tell you more about what's happening in the casinos if they aren't under a gag order or a memory lapse. I don't know how they can play day after day, hour after hour; it takes more stamina than I'll ever contemplate.

In my opinion, casinos are filled up mostly with senior citizens who are mostly retired. I’ve rarely seen young girls in a casino for gambling. In Las Vegas, if I saw attractive girls there, I often judged if there were holes or not. However, OP is a talented young man doing honest research. This is like a lily in a dirty pond!

Problem gambling. Problem drinking. Problem drug use. Problem sex abuse. Etc.

They're all different flavors of the same thing.

Vices will exist regardless of their legal status. All you can tell her is that your job is in the legal / regulated portion of the gaming industry.

Frankly, if I were her, I'd be more concerned that you're also a patron of that very industry she objects to employing you.

Personally, I'd shrug it off for now. Eventually, attempt to show her through your accomplishments that you're one of the good guys, working for one of the good companies.

Quote: odiousgambit

… Casinos at least require you to take the step of getting out of your house to got into them. The move to bring online versions in so many states means susceptible people can destroy themselves without leaving the house. She should be more concerned about that
link to original post

I think you missed a memo from another thread. Harris’ new employer is DraftKings.

Your suggestion of his new employer sounds not plausible, because DraftKings table games are not yet available in New York.

Quote: harris

Recently I have started working in the casino industry doing math (mostly thanks to this forum). My mother is very happy because she studied math in university and uses it to work in advertising, though she is afraid that I am going to get into gambling and lose money. In contrast, my mother's sister (my aunt) thinks that it's really bad that I am working for the casino industry - she says I am ruining families and working for evil thieves.

Personally I don't think anyone I've met in the casino industry is evil, but I do understand where she is coming from I guess. While my aunt told me she disapproved of my job, she was drinking beer, which I said probably causes more societal problems than gambling, but 99% of the population can handle beer without getting addicted so it should be legal and regulated (she disagreed saying gambling is much worse).

Do you think there is anything I can do to convince my aunt that working in this industry is not evil? Or will certain people always disapprove of gambling for various reasons and there is nothing we can do about it? Have any of you faced conflict with people in your life regarding working for the casino industry?

Thanks for reading and have a good night - regards from New York City :)
link to original post

Assuming your aunt's approval is not required, there is no need for you to try to convince her of anything. Tell her thanks for your opinion and then move on with life.

Quote: harris

Do you think there is anything I can do to convince my aunt that working in this industry is not evil? Or will certain people always disapprove of gambling for various reasons and there is nothing we can do about it? Have any of you faced conflict with people in your life regarding working for the casino industry?
link to original post

I think there is nothing you can do. I suggest you agree to disagree and move on.

Personally, I never lost a minute of sleep being in the gaming business. Like many things, yes, gambling can be abused. When Las Vegas churches stop accepting donations from their members in the gaming business I'll take a second look at my opinion.

I don’t think Las Vegas is reflective of the rest of the country. I think almost everyone will be ok with a few gaming destinations like Vegas or AC where people go on vacation once or twice a year, blow some money and go back to their lives. Instead now states are increasingly money hungry for tax revenue and have now made gaming a local thing. Now it’s commonplace to hear stories of someone never gambling but then becoming addicted when a casino opens in their area. The expansion of gaming is a net negative for society.

Quote: Sandybestdog

I don’t think Las Vegas is reflective of the rest of the country. I think almost everyone will be ok with a few gaming destinations like Vegas or AC where people go on vacation once or twice a year, blow some money and go back to their lives. Instead now states are increasingly money hungry for tax revenue and have now made gaming a local thing. Now it’s commonplace to hear stories of someone never gambling but then becoming addicted when a casino opens in their area. The expansion of gaming is a net negative for society.
link to original post

Maybe those local casinos do good too. Being social is more difficult for the elderly and there are many people in that category who are only social because of the climate controlled, handicapped accessible, secure and always open casino that they frequent. I see the old men having their coffee in the keno lounge, the old ladies at the slots and in the bingo hall, and I know those people are being comped, getting bargains, and likely getting more relative to their own needs from this building than they are leaving behind.

Being social increases lifespan! That's pretty well proven. Take all the old people who socialize at casinos, add up all the elder-years added to human life. Then subtract all the bridge jumper-years of life subtracted from those who drove themselves to despair and harmed themselves with gaming, and consider the fact that there is non-casino, unlawful gambling available and a person with a gambling problem will surely find them. I estimate that casinos are +EV for humanity, all accounted for.

A lot of the tax revenue collected from gambling goes towards funding social programs, education, arts, infrastructure, that might not otherwise be funded. At least in theory, I know it depends on jurisdiction and proper allocation.

Does she also think working at a Liquor Store or a Marijuana Dispensary is evil as well?

I actually have family friends in NY state that own a Liquor store and have for decades. Nobody accuses them of being "evil" and while I'm sure they've likely sold products to people who ended up in a bad situation or two, it was the PERSON that abused the alcohol and caused the problem, not the PRODUCT!

I'm also seeing a Woman who works as a Cultivator at a Marijuana Dispensary and she LOVES her job, it's what she wanted to do since she was a little girl and she comes home every night happy as can be. She's doing what she loves and getting paid well for it.

Some purists will say, "She's just a glorified Drug Dealer" but that couldn't be farther from the truth! She is hired for her botany expertise and helps cultivate plants that produce flowers that help people with anxiety, glaucoma and other ailments and it is all 100% Legal!

Back on topic, No you are not in an Evil industry as everyone who enters and leaves does so of their own volition and while the casino may have "tactics" to keep them playing, it's up to the person to recognize whether or not they have a problem and handle it accordingly!

Quote: harris

Have any of you faced conflict with people in your life regarding working for the casino industry?
link to original post

My grandmother was fiercely opposed to gambling.
I am reasonably sure this was because the gambling near her was run by the mob, and she didn't like the car bombings.
I'm pretty sure she was also opposed to the loan sharking, prostitution, drug trade, and gay bars, so it wasn't just gambling.

When a tribal casino displaced the mob run gambling clubs, she tolerated it, but she still wouldn't set foot inside.

(I don't exactly work for the casino industry, and I wasn't gambling adjacent during her life... so I skipped the conflict.)

Quote: 7NeverWins

...I'm also seeing a Woman who works as a Cultivator at a Marijuana Dispensary and she LOVES her job, it's what she wanted to do since she was a little girl and she comes home every night happy as can be. She's doing what she loves and getting paid well for it.

Some purists will say, "She's just a glorified Drug Dealer" but that couldn't be farther from the truth! She is hired for her botany expertise and helps cultivate plants that produce flowers that help people with anxiety, glaucoma and other ailments and it is all 100% Legal!...

I don't think being a drug dealer is that bad either. What's so bad about it?

Suppose I wanted to do a line tonight. The person who sells it stores the product so I don't have to. He takes way more legal risk processing, transporting and selling than I do just buying a little bag and entertaining my proboscis with it. Not much chance of me ever getting shot by one of his competitors, customers or suppliers, but he may well someday.

And he does all this just so I can enjoy myself in a manner I have chosen! (Side note: I don't do lines. _{mumble any more mumble} ) He's doing the work and taking the risk, I'm having the fun and compensating him. I call that a benevolent man, not evil. I don't think a hooker is evil either. Why would she be, because she lays there and takes a pounding so some guy who might not have a lot of options can feel better about himself? No, I bless all these denizens of the jungle, that the people willingly seek out to taste what the world has to offer.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: 7NeverWins

...I'm also seeing a Woman who works as a Cultivator at a Marijuana Dispensary and she LOVES her job, it's what she wanted to do since she was a little girl and she comes home every night happy as can be. She's doing what she loves and getting paid well for it.

Some purists will say, "She's just a glorified Drug Dealer" but that couldn't be farther from the truth! She is hired for her botany expertise and helps cultivate plants that produce flowers that help people with anxiety, glaucoma and other ailments and it is all 100% Legal!...

I don't think being a drug dealer is that bad either. What's so bad about it?

Suppose I wanted to do a line tonight. The person who sells it stores the product so I don't have to. He takes way more legal risk processing, transporting and selling than I do just buying a little bag and entertaining my proboscis with it. Not much chance of me ever getting shot by one of his competitors, customers or suppliers, but he may well someday.

And he does all this just so I can enjoy myself in a manner I have chosen! (Side note: I don't do lines. _{mumble any more mumble} ) He's doing the work and taking the risk, I'm having the fun and compensating him. I call that a benevolent man, not evil. I don't think a hooker is evil either. Why would she be, because she lays there and takes a pounding so some guy who might not have a lot of options can feel better about himself? No, I bless all these denizens of the jungle, that the people willingly seek out to taste what the world has to offer.
link to original post

As an adult, I would agree to some extent to what you’re saying. Now repeat the above about doing a line, except you’re 16, or 14, or 12 years old… Is the dealer still doing you any favors?

Quote: camapl

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

...

Suppose I wanted to do a line tonight. The person who sells it stores the product so I don't have to. He takes way more legal risk processing, transporting and selling than I do just buying a little bag and entertaining my proboscis with it. Not much chance of me ever getting shot by one of his competitors, customers or suppliers, but he may well someday.

And he does all this just so I can enjoy myself in a manner I have chosen! (Side note: I don't do lines. _{mumble any more mumble} ) He's doing the work and taking the risk, I'm having the fun and compensating him. I call that a benevolent man, not evil. I don't think a hooker is evil either. Why would she be, because she lays there and takes a pounding so some guy who might not have a lot of options can feel better about himself? No, I bless all these denizens of the jungle, that the people willingly seek out to taste what the world has to offer.
link to original post

As an adult, I would agree to some extent to what you’re saying. Now repeat the above about doing a line, except you’re 16, or 14, or 12 years old… Is the dealer still doing you any favors?
link to original post

Oh, certainly not! Someone that young should not be engaging in what have always been known as adult pursuits. They should be playing it straight and developing discipline.

But in reality nobody wants that business. "Pushers hanging around schoolyards" is mostly a myth from the 1980s and any legit dealer knows he is going to make a lot more enemies than money doing that. Same for a prostitute and if she serves a minor either she didn't know or it was an act of personal depravity separate from her business. And same for a casino- no lawful casino is going to deal cards to a minor and an illegal game isn't going to let him in either. So if a kid really wants to bet he's going to have to get a poker game going with his friends and how bad is that really, if it's all kids?

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: camapl

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

...

Suppose I wanted to do a line tonight. The person who sells it stores the product so I don't have to. He takes way more legal risk processing, transporting and selling than I do just buying a little bag and entertaining my proboscis with it. Not much chance of me ever getting shot by one of his competitors, customers or suppliers, but he may well someday.

And he does all this just so I can enjoy myself in a manner I have chosen! (Side note: I don't do lines. _{mumble any more mumble} ) He's doing the work and taking the risk, I'm having the fun and compensating him. I call that a benevolent man, not evil. I don't think a hooker is evil either. Why would she be, because she lays there and takes a pounding so some guy who might not have a lot of options can feel better about himself? No, I bless all these denizens of the jungle, that the people willingly seek out to taste what the world has to offer.
link to original post

As an adult, I would agree to some extent to what you’re saying. Now repeat the above about doing a line, except you’re 16, or 14, or 12 years old… Is the dealer still doing you any favors?
link to original post

Oh, certainly not! Someone that young should not be engaging in what have always been known as adult pursuits. They should be playing it straight and developing discipline.

But in reality nobody wants that business. "Pushers hanging around schoolyards" is mostly a myth from the 1980s and any legit dealer knows he is going to make a lot more enemies than money doing that. Same for a prostitute and if she serves a minor either she didn't know or it was an act of personal depravity separate from her business. And same for a casino- no lawful casino is going to deal cards to a minor and an illegal game isn't going to let him in either. So if a kid really wants to bet he's going to have to get a poker game going with his friends and how bad is that really, if it's all kids?
link to original post

Speaking of Drug dealers not wanting to sell to kids, I wrote a fictional story where my Protagonist, Dave is 15 and regularly buys Cocaine from Mr. X, and Dave is getting beat up constantly by his Bully, Rob, a 16 year old.

Dave offers Mr. X a lot of money to beat up Rob and drive him far away and then leave him stranded. Mr. X refuses to beat up Rob and drive him far away and leave him stranded because he doesn't want to be in trouble for assaulting and kidnapping a Minor. People who read my story actually agreed with Mr. X for not wanting to beat up and kidnap a Minor as it's bad enough that he is selling Cocaine to a 15 year old but beating up and kidnapping a 16 year old would completely cross the line. 💡

I am not against kids gambling. Let’s just educate them.

I think I started my gambling around the age of 6 or 7. I really can’t remember a time in my life where I wasn’t gambling at cards, pool, or sports.

Are there any industries that don’t have some negative elements to them?

Churches - Child sexual abuse scandals

Defense Contractors - Napalm & cluster bombs

Banks - Easy access to credit cards with 20% interest rates to trap people in debt

Insurance Companies - Looking for any reason to deny a claim after years of accepting premiums

Not to mention tobacco companies, gun manufacturers, debt collectors, lawyers, Monsato, oil companies, Walmart, McDonalds, Amazon, soda companies, prison guards who abuse prisoners, cops who beat innocent people etc, etc, etc,

Not to say that any of the above are actually evil, just that anyone can be negative on at least some aspects of any industry or profession.

I’d say on the whole casinos are probably one of the least “evil” industries when you compare them to all the others. Designed as places for primarily entertainment & fun.

My family members would probably be much more upset if I was working for oil or tobacco companies. Just because other industries are "evil" doesn't mean that we are all beyond criticism.

I do not think that anyone should judge the typical blackjack dealer, but I might slightly judge the team who designs the "Genghis Khan Auspicious Mid-Autumn Festival" slot machine which includes the "Lucky Pangolin Fortune bonus" that has been specifically crafted by psychologists to appeal to East Asian grandmothers between the ages of 75-85 in order to drain their children's inheritance with a barely-legal RTP. I don't even think that casinos are a net-negative on society, but I feel like there are definitely exploitative practices that should be called out.

However I have come to the awesome conclusion think that some vices that I like such gambling and marijuana are inevitable and fulfill some sort of mythical, spiritual role in society whereas vices that I don't like such as prostitution and heroin add nothing to society and are unnecessary :)

Quote: DRich

I am not against kids gambling. Let’s just educate them.

I think I started my gambling around the age of 6 or 7. I really can’t remember a time in my life where I wasn’t gambling at cards, pool, or sports.
link to original post

Good idea. It's things that we bet on, so we learn things. It's obvious that the people around here have a lot of knowledge about diverse things; math, sports, investing of all kinds. Betting could be a good educational tool in schools, where everything is expressed in terms of probabilities and risk.

Quote: harris

My family members would probably be much more upset if I was working for oil or tobacco companies. Just because other industries are "evil" doesn't mean that we are all beyond criticism.

I do not think that anyone should judge the typical blackjack dealer, but I might slightly judge the team who designs the "Genghis Khan Auspicious Mid-Autumn Festival" slot machine which includes the "Lucky Pangolin Fortune bonus" that has been specifically crafted by psychologists to appeal to East Asian grandmothers between the ages of 75-85 in order to drain their children's inheritance with a barely-legal RTP. I don't even think that casinos are a net-negative on society, but I feel like there are definitely exploitative practices that should be called out.

However I have come to the awesome conclusion think that some vices that I like such gambling and marijuana are inevitable and fulfill some sort of mythical, spiritual role in society whereas vices that I don't like such as prostitution and heroin add nothing to society and are unnecessary :)
link to original post

Much of the best music in the last century is heroin influenced.

Quote: billryan

Quote: harris

...
However I have come to the awesome conclusion think that some vices that I like such gambling and marijuana are inevitable and fulfill some sort of mythical, spiritual role in society whereas vices that I don't like such as prostitution and heroin add nothing to society and are unnecessary :)
link to original post

Much of the best music in the last century is heroin influenced.
link to original post

Not sure I agree. Many of them used it, but those same guys also seem to have done most of their best stuff before they got on hard drugs.

Also, in the prog-rock world I'm from it's not really respected. How many songs do I need to listen to that are ultimately about how bad their life is on drugs?

Quote: harris

My family members would probably be much more upset if I was working for oil or tobacco companies. Just because other industries are "evil" doesn't mean that we are all beyond criticism.

I do not think that anyone should judge the typical blackjack dealer, but I might slightly judge the team who designs the "Genghis Khan Auspicious Mid-Autumn Festival" slot machine which includes the "Lucky Pangolin Fortune bonus" that has been specifically crafted by psychologists to appeal to East Asian grandmothers between the ages of 75-85 in order to drain their children's inheritance with a barely-legal RTP. I don't even think that casinos are a net-negative on society, but I feel like there are definitely exploitative practices that should be called out.

However I have come to the awesome conclusion think that some vices that I like such gambling and marijuana are inevitable and fulfill some sort of mythical, spiritual role in society whereas vices that I don't like such as prostitution and heroin add nothing to society and are unnecessary :)
link to original post

Over an oil company? So you become a petrochemical engineer in a lab developing new polymers, and they're going to say "Where did we go wrong?" Tough family!

I believe all vice comes from us, and the difference between some thing being a vice or being something else comes from us. So I can visit fine wineries, in my outdated cardigans, boring girls with my erudite speech and lectures on vintages, and nobody calls that a vice, that's just being a wine snob as a hobby. Or I can drink myself to death with cheap vodka from a liquor store. The alcohol is the same, the difference is me and how I use it.

Quote: zbrownson

A lot of the tax revenue collected from gambling goes towards funding social programs, education, arts, infrastructure, that might not otherwise be funded. At least in theory, I know it depends on jurisdiction and proper allocation.
link to original post

Perhaps but I think most of these are indirect pet projects for politicians and special interests. In my state I believe the money goes towards education, horse racing, woman and minority owned businesses, and problem gambling. Schools are way overfunded and a waste. Horse racing is dying and not needed in society. Woman and minority grants disadvantages white men. Problem gambling would be almost non existent if state gaming didn’t exist. So I’m not seeing how any of the money lost benefits society, just pet projects.

I think part of the reason that gambling is really popular among my generation (Gen Z) is because of their relative lack of math skills. Around the time I started going to school they gutted the entire Gifted and Talented program (I imagine a lot of you also got inducting into this) in order to focus most of the resources on making sure the worst-performing kids could go to college if they wanted to (they didn't). By the time I was in high school, lots of people began to intentionally fail placement exams so that they could get easier work and there is no incentive to taking more advanced classes, and many people just refused to do any homework since there wasn't a consequence to failing all your classes.

If you don't believe me, there are lots of graphs online showing how math test scores among American students are plummeting right now. An article recently came out detailing how a significant portion of UC San Diego (prestigious university) students don't even know basic elementary math, yet they were accepted anyways. This definitely has to do with the fact that the university stopped looking at standardized test scores because they are supposedly "unfair" to some people (lol).

Compare this to the Middle East and Asia where in the 21st century, they have been focusing their resources on nurturing the highest-performing students. My father once told me, if an American says "I can't do algebra" people can laugh it off, but if you say that in Singapore, people will assume you are handicapped.

This brings me to my interesting ethical point: Casinos might be an important institution in society because they funnel money from people who are bad at math to those who are really good at math. People with no math skills who waste all their money on failed poker bluffs, splitting tens, low-RTP slot machines, and lousy side bets are essentially subsidizing the living of card counters and poker experts, both of which require better math skills than the average American (an exceedingly low bar). In a society that increasingly focuses its resources on the laziest and stupidest among us, isn't it time for the intelligent hard-working people to take what they deserve?

What do you think?

(To be honest I am not completely convinced of this idea, but I find to be a conceptually interesting justification of the existence of casinos in the modern day. Thanks for reading and have a great week!)

I don't think the stupid ones are subsidizing card counters. That implies card counters' existence is related to stupid players' existence. It doesn't work that way. Casinos don't like card counters because they turn the house edge negative.

It is true that bad players at blackjack are the reason why the game still exists with good rules. A casino would not offer that game at a reasonable minimum bet if everyone played basic strategy and never played side bets, because the cost of labor and the value of the floor space is more than the expected casino win.

The same is true with video poker. If the only people who played it refused to play anything less than 99% and with optimal strategy, the cost of operating the games (ticket paper, the drop team, electricity, slot attendants, and floor space) would be more than the expected casino win.

The actual RTP for video poker is 2 to 4 percentage points less than optional play, so a few 99% games with a few people who play it perfectly is okay when most of the games are 98% or 97%, and most people play them badly. It averages out to about 95%, which justifies their presence on the casino floor. A casino can't have rip-off video slots and nothing else, because they need to have a variety of games to attract the highest number of customers.

Speaking of rip-off video slot machines, those games basically pay for everything else. If gamblers did not play them, casinos in their current form would not exist. It's even better when players use the skip-stop feature so they can shovel their money to the casino even faster. The best ones (from the casino's perspective) are "penny slots" where you can bet 1000 coins a spin. The casino gets a significant wager of ten bucks a spin while still paying out the crummiest RTP in the building, the penny rate.

Quote: KevinAA

Speaking of rip-off video slot machines, those games basically pay for everything else. If gamblers did not play them, casinos in their current form would not exist. It's even better when players use the skip-stop feature so they can shovel their money to the casino even faster. The best ones (from the casino's perspective) are "penny slots" where you can bet 1000 coins a spin. The casino gets a significant wager of ten bucks a spin while still paying out the crummiest RTP in the building, the penny rate.
link to original post

About 5 years ago when I was setting the hold percentages for the penny slots at our casinos, the average was around 90%. When I was designing slots, one major casino company told us that they would not be buying our machines unless we offered paytables around the 85% number. At the time our lowest paytables available were 87%.

The industry has no ethics. It is evil.

Gambling is not inherently evil, but the industry is very, very evil.

And it has become more evil in recent times. Not just because of how it presents its product ("perceived persistence"), but also how it markets itself. The industry uses social media "influencers" to promote/normalize problem gambling behaviors, spread misinformation, mislead the public, and be generally scummy. Often with no disclosure that a business relationship exists at all. Anything is okay to boost profits. Heck, problem gambling itself is an individual failure, not a problem for the casinos or game makers. Lose your life savings with the encouragement of the casino? You should have banned yourself. Our constant badgering and begging by "your host/player rep" had nothing to do with it. You could have said no. We will ban you now that you have lost everything though. Adios, pobre.

Saying people suck at math, while true, does not justify it when the industry hides everything that could help players better understand what is happening. Cutsheets are labeled as confidential and hidden by most companies despite providing no informations that could help a player or endanger the math model. And, again, they "partner" with people who are promoting bad math or a complete rejection of the math. (And no one wants to help get the math straight. I cannot get casinos or game makers to reject specific nonsense claims made about their products. They simply do not care.)

Quote: billryan

Do you think casinos are more evil today than when the mob ran them?
link to original post

How was it worse? The industry was viewed as shady, so it had to present itself as clean. Johnny Law was looking for ways to take down organized crime. Now gambling is acceptable so the industry can be as shady as it wants. No one cares if someone is smashing a slot machine to burn through tens of thousands of dollars for an audience of dumb-dumbs on youtube as long as some of those dumb-dumbs make their way to the casino. Begging for a win was reason to get someone out of the public eye. Now, as long as they are spending, but especially if they are encouraging others to spend, that is fine.

This is seen in how the industry markets to itself. SODA is not sold in back alleys. The makers are very clear that it can help them tackle the problem of "free play abusers" and "advantage players" which have almost no cost for the industry. Advantage play is the pinnacle of "responsible play." Cannot have that. They are worried about pennies, not people. The mob had to act like it cared on the outside while it broke your thumbs for not paying a marker.

Do you think casinos are more evil today than when the mob ran them?

Quote: billryan

Do you think casinos are more evil today than when the mob ran them?
link to original post

I think it's much easier to find a casino outside Nevada since IGRA 1988.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: billryan

Do you think casinos are more evil today than when the mob ran them?
link to original post

I think it's much easier to find a casino outside Nevada since IGRA 1988.
link to original post

Okay, but are you suggesting Native Americans are more evil than the Mafia?

Quote: itsmejeff

The industry has no ethics. It is evil.

Gambling is not inherently evil, but the industry is very, very evil.

And it has become more evil in recent times. Not just because of how it presents its product ("perceived persistence"), but also how it markets itself. The industry uses social media "influencers" to promote/normalize problem gambling behaviors, spread misinformation, mislead the public, and be generally scummy. Often with no disclosure that a business relationship exists at all. Anything is okay to boost profits. Heck, problem gambling itself is an individual failure, not a problem for the casinos or game makers. Lose your life savings with the encouragement of the casino? You should have banned yourself. Our constant badgering and begging by "your host/player rep" had nothing to do with it. You could have said no. We will ban you now that you have lost everything though. Adios, pobre.

Saying people suck at math, while true, does not justify it when the industry hides everything that could help players better understand what is happening. Cutsheets are labeled as confidential and hidden by most companies despite providing no informations that could help a player or endanger the math model. And, again, they "partner" with people who are promoting bad math or a complete rejection of the math. (And no one wants to help get the math straight. I cannot get casinos or game makers to reject specific nonsense claims made about their products. They simply do not care.)

Quote: billryan

Do you think casinos are more evil today than when the mob ran them?
link to original post

How was it worse? The industry was viewed as shady, so it had to present itself as clean. Johnny Law was looking for ways to take down organized crime. Now gambling is acceptable so the industry can be as shady as it wants. No one cares if someone is smashing a slot machine to burn through tens of thousands of dollars for an audience of dumb-dumbs on youtube as long as some of those dumb-dumbs make their way to the casino. Begging for a win was reason to get someone out of the public eye. Now, as long as they are spending, but especially if they are encouraging others to spend, that is fine.

This is seen in how the industry markets to itself. SODA is not sold in back alleys. The makers are very clear that it can help them tackle the problem of "free play abusers" and "advantage players" which have almost no cost for the industry. Advantage play is the pinnacle of "responsible play." Cannot have that. They are worried about pennies, not people. The mob had to act like it cared on the outside while it broke your thumbs for not paying a marker.
link to original post

I went into a car dealer 20 years ago. Asked the salesman how much that Subaru was. Showed me the sticker which had its MSRP of $25k. I laughed. Offered $20k, eventually we shook hands at $22k. I asked him if anyone paid the MSRP? His answer was ‘you’d be surprised’.
Are car dealers ‘evil’ because they prey on people who just aren’t smart enough to negotiate a fair price?

Is the hospitality industry evil when it charges ‘resort fees’?

Is the health care industry evil when you get a bill from your out of network anesthesiologist?

Is StubHub evil when the ticket that says ‘$100’ ends up being $128.60 after ‘fees’?

Is the tobacco industry evil because it sells tobacco?

Is the (blank) Party evil because it sells false hope that its policies will do good?

Etc…..

The problem is that people toss around the word evil so much that it has become almost acceptable.

Quote: billryan

Quote: Dieter

Quote: billryan

Do you think casinos are more evil today than when the mob ran them?
link to original post

I think it's much easier to find a casino outside Nevada since IGRA 1988.
link to original post

Okay, but are you suggesting Native Americans are more evil than the Mafia?
link to original post

Even if a Mafia casino, Corporate casino, Tribal casino, state lottery, and online casino are equally "evil", the barrier to entry between the common citizen and that evil keeps eroding.

Hopefully people are exceptionally entertained in exchange for their money.

I will make the same criticisms against alcohol, tobacco, and whatever else when alcohol companies start hiring "influencers" who have obvious alcohol dependency problems, promote binge drinking, or misinform/mislead the public about alcohol to host "shot tournaments."

I was going to say, what about influencers promoting cryptocurrency? prediction markets? stocks? forex?

Thousands of Americans die each year as a result of products sold by tobacco and liquor companies.

Quote: billryan

The problem is that people toss around the word evil so much that it has become almost acceptable.
link to original post

Old Testament: the Fall From Grace was caused by our seeking of the knowledge of good and evil, and our decision to be the judge of those things.

New Testament: "Do not judge, and do not condemn."

Nobody ever calls themselves evil, and when we say someone or something else is it's usually to promote ourselves. "They're evil, and I'm better than them because..." So in our desire to puff ourselves up as righteous, we end up having to declare other things to be evil, attack them, make war on them. And after we defeat one enemy we still need our self-righteousness fix so we pick another target. Bad news, there's never peace that way.

Instead we should see no evil and hear no evil, but let Penny Lane be in our ears and in our eyes. The casino is good! As the mellifluous numbers flow through, and the alcohol flows in, and its metabolites flow out. And the money flows, with movement indistinguishable from the random but to me.

Holy! Holy! Holy! The world is holy! The skin is holy! The nose is holy! The tongue and rock and hand and castle holy!