Are There Ghosts?

Quote: mkl654321

Now, THAT is a completely indefensible statement. I can see how, though, if you were religious, you might make yourself think that.

The only technology that has benefited from the presence of religion is the science of torture. Other than that, religion has ACTIVELY OPPOSED science, technology, reason, human advancement, and knowledge, because the more you know, the less likely you are to show up Sunday and put a little gold in the collection plate.

In fact, I'll go further than that, and hypothesize that if not for religion, we would be three or four centuries more advanced than we are now.

Present that assertion-filled rap to your fresh men, look away for 2 seconds, then turn around and see if you can find any of them not rolling uncontrollably all over the floor!

Quote: clarkacal

My point is many if not most of the important innovations that have shaped today's world were a result of the presence of religion.

Give the top 5 examples. The Church was against the printing press, the last thing they wanted was the Bible in the hands of the masses. They were against educating anybody but future priests. They were against anything scientific and imprisoned or killed math and science people. They were against musical instruments and only gradually accepted them over time. Exactly what 'important innovations' were they instrumental in? If anything, religion has dragged the world down and held it back. All of the present wars on the planet are over religion, or the vast majority of them are.

Quote: mkl654321

Now, THAT is a completely indefensible statement. I can see how, though, if you were religious, you might make yourself think that.

The only technology that has benefited from the presence of religion is the science of torture. Other than that, religion has ACTIVELY OPPOSED science, technology, reason, human advancement, and knowledge, because the more you know, the less likely you are to show up Sunday and put a little gold in the collection plate.

In fact, I'll go further than that, and hypothesize that if not for religion, we would be three or four centuries more advanced than we are now.

Ok well I just disagree with you then. By the way, I haven't been to church in about 15 years.

With the example of cathedrals and printing press:
Up until the craze of building more and more opulant extravagant cathedrals people lived in dark, drafty, unstable, uninspiring huts or sorry excuses for castles. Flying buttresses, pointed arches, deep stable foundations, etc. that were new to these buildings were the catalyst of modern architecture.

The printing press was the internet of it's day, making biblical material and later scholarly information available to learn from and share easily like nothing before it. I'm sure you agree the free flow of information and ideas is crucial for the advancement of a culture in any field of study.

Quote: mkl654321

The only technology that has benefited from the presence of religion is the science of torture. .

Talk about indefensible! One of the more ridiculous statements you have made...

Quote: EvenBob

Give the top 5 examples. The Church was against the printing press, the last thing they wanted was the Bible in the hands of the masses. They were against educating anybody but future priests. They were against anything scientific and imprisoned or killed math and science people. They were against musical instruments and only gradually accepted them over time. Exactly what 'important innovations' were they instrumental in? If anything, religion has dragged the world down and held it back. All of the present wars on the planet are over religion, or the vast majority of them are.

I am not talking about the church! I am referring to the presence of religion, be it a corrupt bishop who wishes to build the biggest cathedral around to fill his coffers or a sect of christians who wishes to make the bible accesible to everyone, whether it be for religious beliefs or monetary gain.

Quote: clarkacal

The printing press was the internet of it's day, making biblical material and later scholarly information available to learn from and share easily like nothing before it.

Certainly. The printing press ushered in a really big communications revolution. We don't have to rehash it here. Suffice it to say TIME magazine declared Gutenberg the Man of the Millennium and for once they were right.

But what does religion have to do with it? I know the first thing Gutenberg printed was the Bible. So?

Quote: clarkacal

Talk about indefensible! One of the more ridiculous statements you have made...

Then name ANY science that the Church didn't actively oppose, stifle, and subvert.

This could include any system of rational thought.

Quote: Nareed

Certainly. The printing press ushered in a really big communications revolution. We don't have to rehash it here. Suffice it to say TIME magazine declared Gutenberg the Man of the Millennium and for once they were right.

But what does religion have to do with it? I know the first thing Gutenberg printed was the Bible. So?

He's claiming that the printing press was the product of divine inspiration, and the proof of that is that it was used to print a lot of Bibles.

Quote: Nareed

Certainly. The printing press ushered in a really big communications revolution. We don't have to rehash it here. Suffice it to say TIME magazine declared Gutenberg the Man of the Millennium and for once they were right.

But what does religion have to do with it? I know the first thing Gutenberg printed was the Bible. So?

No it wasn't the first thing. The first thing was actually religious indulgence receipts. The first 5 out of 6 items were of a religious nature, the other being a calendar. If there was no atmosphere of religious zeal there would have been no incentive for Gutenberg to find a way to mass produce something. The fact that so much of the early work produced was religious demonstrates what a crucial part religion played in driving innovation.

Basically religious fervor, whether you believe it to be misguided or not, lit a fire under people to do things they would not have otherwise been inspired to do.

Quote: mkl654321

Then name ANY science that the Church didn't actively oppose, stifle, and subvert.

This could include any system of rational thought.

There you go substituting the church for religion again...

Quote: mkl654321

He's claiming that the printing press was the product of divine inspiration, and the proof of that is that it was used to print a lot of Bibles.

um no I'm not. I'm claiming religious fervor of almost everyone at the time created a market Gutenberg judged he could profit from.

Quote: clarkacal

There you go substituting the church for religion again...

Do you seriously think that there was any difference in people's minds between...oh, never mind. I keep making the mistake of trying to argue reason and logic with Believers.

Quote: clarkacal

I'm claiming religious fervor of almost everyone at the time created a market

Necessity is the mother of invention, not religious fervor. Religious fervor is the antithesis of creativity and invention.

Quote: mkl654321

Do you seriously think that there was any difference in people's minds between...oh, never mind. I keep making the mistake of trying to argue reason and logic with Believers.

Did you call me a believer? If I am anything I am agnostic. By the way, I was the one who created the boob size poll, remember?

Quote: EvenBob

Necessity is the mother of invention, not religious fervor. Religious fervor is the antithesis of creativity and invention.

Something has to drive necessity, right? It could be hunger, thirst, shelter, etc. The percieved need to save ones soul consumed a large portion of the people in the western world during this period of time.

Quote: clarkacal

Did you call me a believer? If I am anything I am agnostic. By the way, I was the one who created the boob size poll, remember?

Boobs and religion are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I know a number of religious boobs. But I'll take your word for it that you're not a Believer.

I do think, however, that you drastically overvalue religion's contribution to the world. I don't understand why, frankly--only a totally unobjective person (usually, blinded by religious beliefs) could not see the awful and widespread harm religion has caused mankind.

I change my mind.

Simple, they have an overactive limbic system in the brain.

I don't believe in ghosts, but I believe in near death experiences. But that's because I think I figured out what sometimes happens if the conditions are right, which is based on what happens to a lot of elderly people, at least the ones who experience various degenerative memory effects.

If you notice, recent events go first. They may not remember yesterday, or what happened a hour ago, but they remember things that happened years ago. 'So, the brain appears to hang onto the oldest memories longest. Therefore, if the brain suffers a rapid decline (due to oxygen deprivation) this starts destroying recent memories first, and so on, creating the effect of ones life being played backwards, so one feels one going back in time reliving their life backwards (flashing before one's eyes). As your newest memories are destroyed, you become that person you were last year, then the year before that (nature abhors a vacuum, so it's filled with other memories), and so on, and so on... That's why you may see dead people, like your grandma (past memory) -- and try to speak to her, maybe thinking she‘s really there..

If you recover, you may be able to remember this in some cases if there's not too much brain damage.

But then again, I'm just guessing.

Quote: mkl654321

Just about every culture has fairy and witch and dragon stories too. Not to mention religion.

Some of these irrational things you are required to believe in, others are optional. It is required that you believe in our state religion, medicine. It is optional to believe in leprechauns but if you happen to find yourself in an Irish pub on or about Saint Patrick's Day it is generally considered wise to profess an acceptance of them if not an outright belief in them. Ghosts, goblins and haunts are good tools for exercising control over the fools who would believe such things.

Quote: FleaStiff

It is required that you believe in our state religion, medicine.

Huh????

Aside from the question of whether or not medicine is a "religion" (huh?????), I'd like to point out that you aren't required to believe in it; you can choose to bleed to death outside the entrance to the emergency room if you wish. You can even deny your children lifesaving medication--we're a tolerant society.

I change my mind