The Lunatic Shooter in AZ

I keep hearing this guy would break out laughing when nobody was talking. He would laugh in class and in the school cafeteria and nobody was talking to him. It reminds me of every time they'd show an insane asylum in an old movie, it would be full of people laughing hysterically to themselves. Look at his mug shot, you want this guy living next to you? Yet he walks around every day scaring people and we can do nothing about till he does what he did.

Tougher gun laws?

Quote: FinsRule

Tougher gun laws?

You used to be able to commit someone against their will if they were deemed unstable and a danger to themselves and others. You can't do that anymore. In the past somebody like this would have gotten help, now we just wait till they kill somebody.

Quote: EvenBob

You used to be able to commit someone against their will if they were deemed unstable and a danger to themselves and others. You can't do that anymore. In the past somebody like this would have gotten help, now we just wait till they kill somebody.

Nonsense; involuntary commitment is still done all the time, every day, in every state.

The fact of the matter is that the guy didn't exhibit any particularly alarming behavior. Sure, he acted eccentric, and said some weird things, but if we locked up everyone who acted and sounded like him, we'd need enough asylum beds for thirty million people.

I'm sure you'll say that he was OBVIOUSLY a danger, and therefore should have been hustled into a straitjacket, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. Also, there's the thorny little issue of civil liberties. It's a serious issue to deprive a person of his freedom, especially if he hasn't committed any crime. I know the quickie, no-think attitude is "we should 'er locked him up, goldurnit", but it's not legal--or moral--to lock someone away for life simply because they act strangely. This guy wasn't that far off the map. He went to school, did reasonably well in his classes, applied to join the Army. He didn't exhibit any signs oif extreme or violent behavior. His beliefs were bizarre, but we don't lock people up for that, either.

In short, this guy was below the radar.

Quote: mkl654321

Nonsense; involuntary commitment is still done all the time, every day, in every state.
.

Its much more difficult now. A person can't be committed for just showing strange behavior, like they could years ago. Now they have to have 'done' something, like attempted suicide, self mutilation, or show that they're incapable of caring for themselves. From the testimony of those who knew him, many were terrified of him and that used to be enough for someone to be forced into treatment.

Quote: EvenBob

Its much more difficult now. A person can't be committed for just showing strange behavior, like they could years ago. Now they have to have 'done' something, like attempted suicide, self mutilation, or show that they're incapable of caring for themselves. From the testimony of those who knew him, many were terrified of him and that used to be enough for someone to be forced into treatment.

Wow--do you actually think that's a good thing--that someone could have been deprived of his freedom, probably permanently, just because he showed behavior that somebody thought was "strange"? Or that somebody was supposedly afraid of him?

Don't forget, involuntary commitment is essentially a life sentence in prison, plus forced daily injection with brain-destroying drugs. It would be a fate worse than death for someone who is sane.

Quote: mkl654321

Don't forget, involuntary commitment is essentially a life sentence in prison,

Involuntary commitment for psychiatric evaluation is nothing of the sort. You've seen too many movies.

Quote: EvenBob

Involuntary commitment for psychiatric evaluation is nothing of the sort. You've seen too many movies.

Oh, come on. They treat a person as if he's crazy (whether he actually is or not), pump him full of psychotropic drugs until he's a zombie, and imprison him in a little cell for months. THEN, they decide if he's sane or not. Don't forget the "deviant behavior" that got him put there in the first place. They'll be watching him for any signs of that, to validate the decision to bundle him into the funny wagon in the first place. And believe me, if you put ANYONE in a mental hospital for six months and pump him full of drugs, you WILL find evidence of "insanity" in his behavior, especially if two guys follow him all over the place with notepads.

Though I do think that this guy will be found sane enough to stand trial. After all, in Arizona, havin' the urge to haul out the ol' shootin' irons and go blow away a few Democrats is considered natural and healthy, not a sign of insanity.

Quote: mkl654321

Oh, come on. They treat a person as if he's crazy (whether he actually is or not), pump him full of psychotropic drugs until he's a zombie, and imprison him in a little cell for months. THEN, they decide if he's sane or not. .

In 1895. Don't forget shackling him to the wall and straight jackets. The Dem congress gutted the funding for mental hospitals in the 1980's and threw all the crazy people into the streets. Ever since then you can't get them back in.

Quote: EvenBob

In 1895. Don't forget shackling him to the wall and straight jackets. The Dem congress gutted the funding for mental hospitals in the 1980's and threw all the crazy people into the streets. Ever since then you can't get them back in.

Now they all just bicker on forums.

Quote: TheNightfly

Now they all just bicker on forums.

That and they wander the streets, homeless. You never heard the words 'homeless person' until they emptied the mental hospitals,

Quote: mkl654321

Wow--do you actually think that's a good thing--that someone could have been deprived of his freedom, probably permanently, just because he showed behavior that somebody thought was "strange"? Or that somebody was supposedly afraid of him?

Don't forget, involuntary commitment is essentially a life sentence in prison, plus forced daily injection with brain-destroying drugs. It would be a fate worse than death for someone who is sane.

Lets see, life inside a mental facility, which is not a prison unless you are really, really dangerous. Or you can end up on the street, living in garbage, eating what I throw away, hmmmm?

Fact is this started years and years ago and it is correct, we don't put people in mental facilities anymore though many belong there. It isn't a matter of "someone thinking it is strange" it is a matter of it being strange. It might be temporary that they cracked or it might be long term. But better to have them in a proper facility than on the street. Or than for them to commit a crime and end up in prison where they will be raped and become a sex slave inside the walls.

The fact is, now that its almost impossible to get into a state or fed mental institution, these people end up in prison, where they at least get some form of treatment. When eventually released, they become immediately homeless and live in shelters until they eventually commit enough crimes to be sent back to prison. Its been this way since the 80's when the compassionate Dem congress gutted funding for state and fed institutions. To be fair, Reagan signed the bill, so part of it is his fault also.