rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
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January 11th, 2011 at 1:22:19 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


On a side note, when were were in CT recently, we went to Foxwoods first for a few hours. She his a slot hand-pay and tipped $30 - because it was Christmas Eve. When we got to Mohegan Sun, she asked the desk clerk about a room upgrade. We got it, and she tipped the desk clerk $5.



Congrats to your wife on both the hand-pay and on her success in pulling off the "$20 trick" with a $5 bill;-)

Quote: DJTeddyBear


Sometimes I have no idea what the heck she is thinking...



This implies that you *do* sometimes know what she is thinking. I am envious of that condition, since I can't figure my girlfriend out at all...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 11th, 2011 at 1:43:06 PM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Congrats to your wife on both the hand-pay and on her success in pulling off the "$20 trick" with a $5 bill;-)

Except she asked, and got the upgrade, before showing any cash.

Quote: rdw4potus

This implies that you *do* sometimes know what she is thinking. I am envious of that condition, since I can't figure my girlfriend out at all...

Hmmm.... Let me rephrase....

I have no idea what the heck she is thinking...
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
P90
P90
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January 11th, 2011 at 1:57:33 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Your particular reason for tolerating getting a bad deal is valid as far as it goes, but someone playing $5 6:5 is paying four times as much to the house as someone playing $10 3:2


If he plays basic strategy. Do these people? Well, they probably wouldn't be playing at 6:5 tables if they knew enough to remember even simplified strategy is.

For most players the strategy is "hit up to 9, double down on 10-11, stand on hard 17", on 12-16 they follow their gut or at best know to stand against 2-6, but turn it into a mess against 7-A. Practically always they'll stand on 16 vs 7, for instance. There is no strategy for soft hands, no splitting strategy other than split all aces (not always even all 8s), and even all of that gets deviated from based on how the player feels.

With a house edge of 2-3% at a BJ table, playing at a 6:5 21 table only adds 1.4% to this edge. And 3.5%*$5 is slightly, but less than 2%*$10. So, for their money, they might actually be losing less at a 6:5 table, plus they have less variance. Since they have already written their bankroll off as entertainment fare, low variance allows them to last longer and get less adrenaline over risking money.
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Nareed
Nareed
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January 11th, 2011 at 2:17:40 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

x2 over x20.... because they only intend to play double odds on their bets anyway. x2 or x20 is all the same to me, I only over play $5 minimum with $10 odds behind anyways.



Fair enough. But if you do well and want to increase your odss bet, you won't be able to at the Fremont. Keeping your options open is not the worst of things to do.
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mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 11th, 2011 at 4:11:13 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

I disagree that it isn't relevant. If I only tip whatever I get above even money when I get a blackjack, and I only tip when I get a blackjack, then it's very relevant.

Basically, I don't care if the house is paying 6:5 or 3:2, because they're going to suffer in the form of getting dealers who get less tips. Then the good dealers will go to places where they get tipped better, and the 6:5 casino will suffer in the form of bad/sloppy dealers.

Economics.



I was kind of afraid that I would be misinterpreted.

The point was that you spend four times as much for your entertainment betting $5 at 6:5 than you do betting $10 at 3:2. So you incur a loss of that much greater magnitude (or win that much less often) at 6:5, so you are less likely to tip for that reason: people tip more when they win than when they lose. However, if you tip the excess from blackjacks no matter what, bully for you. But the amount you tip isn't, strictly speaking, a function of the game's rules; it's a function of how much you choose to tip in a given situation. I would expect tips to be lower at 6:5 simply because the house administers a much more thorough thrashing at 6:5 than 3:2.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 11th, 2011 at 4:17:15 PM permalink
Quote: P90

If he plays basic strategy. Do these people? Well, they probably wouldn't be playing at 6:5 tables if they knew enough to remember even simplified strategy is.

For most players the strategy is "hit up to 9, double down on 10-11, stand on hard 17", on 12-16 they follow their gut or at best know to stand against 2-6, but turn it into a mess against 7-A. Practically always they'll stand on 16 vs 7, for instance. There is no strategy for soft hands, no splitting strategy other than split all aces (not always even all 8s), and even all of that gets deviated from based on how the player feels.

With a house edge of 2-3% at a BJ table, playing at a 6:5 21 table only adds 1.4% to this edge. And 3.5%*$5 is slightly, but less than 2%*$10. So, for their money, they might actually be losing less at a 6:5 table, plus they have less variance. Since they have already written their bankroll off as entertainment fare, low variance allows them to last longer and get less adrenaline over risking money.



You're misinterpreting the effect of variance. Sure, 6:5 has lower variance, but the sole component of that difference in variance is the lower payout on blackjacks. That moves the highest point of the bell curve to the left. So you lose some part of your wins (that are now smaller, or turn into losses, because of the loss of that 0.3 unit), including the largest ones--that's where the variance is "cut off". In other words, the variance is decreased solely by reducing the outliers at the right side of the bell curve--the largest wins are now that much smaller.

Obviously, I see your basic point that playing $5 crap BJ might be less expensive than playing $10 decent BJ if a player garbages up Basic Strategy so badly that he's fighting a huge HE even in the decent game. But I make the assumption that anyone smarter than a walnut can learn Basic Strategy, so my comparisons are based on that.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
P90
P90
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January 11th, 2011 at 5:08:49 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

You're misinterpreting the effect of variance. Sure, 6:5 has lower variance, but the sole component of that difference in variance is the lower payout on blackjacks.


The lower variance here is in absolute units, i.e. in dollars. At lower stakes, the player gets lower bankroll swings, even though due to the rules ends up losing less.


Quote: mkl654321

Obviously, I see your basic point that playing $5 crap BJ might be less expensive than playing $10 decent BJ if a player garbages up Basic Strategy so badly that he's fighting a huge HE even in the decent game. But I make the assumption that anyone smarter than a walnut can learn Basic Strategy, so my comparisons are based on that.


Can. But do they even try? The typical minimum-stakes gambler in Vegas, at least when the stakes in question is $5, isn't a gambler at all, he's a casual tourist that has come to see NV and sees casinos, blackjack and hookers as an essential part of the experience. From his point of view, a lower-stake table means lower admission price for the same entertainment.

Don't remember the source, but IIRC the typical house edge in BJ for an unskilled player is 2-3%. At this rate, their poor play harms them even more than the outrageous rules. Though in my opinion, the 6:5 game shouldn't even be called blackjack, just a 21 variant. While I'd still urge such players to go to a 3:2 table or another casino altogether, so as not to reward the practice of ruining a good game to faster screw people who are already screwing themselves over pretty good, such a rule won't necessarily save them money unless they also bother to learn and follow even a simplified strategy.
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mkl654321
mkl654321
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January 11th, 2011 at 7:22:57 PM permalink
Quote: P90

Can. But do they even try? The typical minimum-stakes gambler in Vegas, at least when the stakes in question is $5, isn't a gambler at all, he's a casual tourist that has come to see NV and sees casinos, blackjack and hookers as an essential part of the experience. From his point of view, a lower-stake table means lower admission price for the same entertainment.



What's happening here is that you're focusing on the fact that 6:5 games are usually offered at the lowest limits, and conversely, if you want to find 3:2, you often have to move up an increment in stakes. The issue has to be looked at in the light of "ceteris paribus"--all other things being equal. Ceteris paribus, a 3:2 game is better than a 6:5 game. Ceteris paribus, it's better to play $5/hand than $10/hand. Ceteris paribus, it's better to play basic strategy than to play like the average tourist.

So given that all three of these things are under the player's control, there's no surprise that there's such a huge gap between the HAs for 3:2/BS and 6:5/TS (Tourist Strategy). And given that there's still a house advantage under optimal rules and conditions (ignoring those very few games that are essentially even off the top), it's best to play the lowest stakes available. But my point was that you will do MUCH better playing 3:2 at $10/hand than you will do playing 6:5 at $5/hand. The benefit of the halved stakes is dwarfed by the harm of playing 6:5.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Toes14
Toes14
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January 11th, 2011 at 8:06:34 PM permalink
You forgot the 25% vig on all bets at the Sportsbook!
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P90
P90
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January 11th, 2011 at 8:07:25 PM permalink
Yes, of course, anyone who knows how to play will do way better at 3:2. In no way am I defending 6:5. Just mentioning that when people who know nothing about the game choose to play at 6:5 with half the stake, they aren't necessarily making the wrong choice for themselves, presuming that the bulk of their utility comes from "Wow, I'm on the Strip and I'm playing blackjack!". Any player who bothered to learn even a little will be better served by higher stakes and proper rules, but "don't play 6:5" is one of the first things you learn.

In the $15 6:5 vs $20 3:2 scenario, though, or even $15 vs $25, mentioned previously in the thread, even tourist strategy players are better off with the latter, as short BJ payout cuts into the least skill-dependent part of their expected return.
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