You are overpaid for blackjack...
Poll
 | 31 votes (83.78%) | ||
| | 6 votes (16.21%) |
37 members have voted
January 9th, 2011 at 6:37:58 PM
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You sit at one of those 6:5 blackjack tables. (There were 2 smoking hot women with one seat open between them). You bet $20. You get blackjack. The dealer pays you $30. And you..... ?
Math Extremist and I have been going back and forth on the ethics involved in this issue on the 'computer glitch' thread. I am interested to see what the rest of the forum thinks.
My prediction is 7 of 10 keep the money.
Math Extremist and I have been going back and forth on the ethics involved in this issue on the 'computer glitch' thread. I am interested to see what the rest of the forum thinks.
My prediction is 7 of 10 keep the money.
January 9th, 2011 at 6:41:11 PM
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I tell the dealer. Maybe something to do with the job I'm in.
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January 9th, 2011 at 6:43:05 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOYou sit at one of those 6:5 blackjack tables. (There were 2 smoking hot women with one seat open between them). You bet $20. You get blackjack. The dealer pays you $30. And you..... ?
Keep the money. If challenged by the pit boss say, "The sign said BLACKJACK/"
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
January 9th, 2011 at 6:45:09 PM
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I'm a big fan of playing ignorant. You have an easy out if the pit comes and says something - saying you thought it was a 3:2 table and you wouldn't play the 6:5 garbage. I know it's on the felt, but I bet 3/5 people don't see it.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
January 9th, 2011 at 6:50:58 PM
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I point out that I was overpaid, because I don't want to see the dealer get grief and maybe jeopardize her job for $6.
Then, of course, I ask the person seated next to me to whack me on the head for playing at a 6:5 blackjack table in the first place.
Then, of course, I ask the person seated next to me to whack me on the head for playing at a 6:5 blackjack table in the first place.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
January 9th, 2011 at 6:53:40 PM
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I give the dealer the $6 difference as a tip, and then, about 5 hands later, tell him/her what s/he did. I get mispaid or overpaid in craps enough and do the same thing there. I don't tell them however because the table is usually moving so fast that it isn't worth stopping to point out the error.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 9th, 2011 at 6:58:11 PM
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So you pointing out her/his error so that she/he now must call over the pit boss so she can correct it is better for the dealer than letting the likely unnoticed $6 error remain unnoticed? I have never seen this type of error corrected from the eye in the sky. But I do not want to divert my own thread. I appreciate your honesty and motive to protect the dealer. This is answering mkls recent post.
January 9th, 2011 at 7:05:13 PM
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I don't suppose they watch these low-stakes tables so closely as to catch that. So, if I noticed at all (3:2 for blackjack is hardly something suspicious) - I'd probably keep it if I was losing (at a 6:5 table, who wouldn't?) and would consider returning it if I was ahead at the moment, so as not to kill my luck. Not that I believe in luck, but if it is there, it certainly wouldn't like me keeping extra money while ahead already.
Again, I'm not sure what would get the dealer in more trouble, returning it or keeping. If I liked the dealer, I'd try to return it if it could be done quietly. If not, I'd keep it regardless.
Again, I'm not sure what would get the dealer in more trouble, returning it or keeping. If I liked the dealer, I'd try to return it if it could be done quietly. If not, I'd keep it regardless.
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January 9th, 2011 at 7:13:26 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOSo you pointing out her/his error so that she/he now must call over the pit boss so she can correct it is better for the dealer than letting the likely unnoticed $6 error remain unnoticed? I have never seen this type of error corrected from the eye in the sky. But I do not want to divert my own thread. I appreciate your honesty and motive to protect the dealer. This is answering mkls recent post.
If she's doing it with me, she's likely doing it with others. She may have changed from a 3:2 table to this one. She may be an experienced dealer who learned in the days of no 6:5 and may be paying 3:2 purely as a reflex. This might mean that the eye in the sky IS watching, and I know from experience that when the phone on the podium rings, you, the dealer, are already in serious trouble. So yes, I would call attention to it, because doing so might save her ass. And she wouldn't even necessarily have to call the floorman over to correct the payout if I alerted her in time.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
January 9th, 2011 at 7:17:11 PM
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I don't play BJ, but Nareed's 19 Law states:
Of course I should add a corollary: you are responsible for the consequences of your decision.
Quote:19) You're not responsible of correcting a dealer error in your favor. You may do so, and it may even be the honest thing to do, but ultimately it's your choice.
Of course I should add a corollary: you are responsible for the consequences of your decision.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
January 9th, 2011 at 7:21:40 PM
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Probably the worst option.Quote: boymimboI give the dealer the $6 difference as a tip, and then, about 5 hands later, tell him/her what s/he did. I get mispaid or overpaid in craps enough and do the same thing there. I don't tell them however because the table is usually moving so fast that it isn't worth stopping to point out the error.
On the assumption that the Eye In The Sky did see it, you've just made it seem like you're in collusion with the dealer. Or, that the dealer is deliberately making mistakes in the hopes of getting a tip.
Doing anything other that pointing it out and returning it does not relieve you of the obligation to return if it the suits stop by.
So it you give the dealer that $6, and the suits stop by, you'd have to shell out another $6!
My answer: Keep it. If the suits stop by, I'll say I thought it was a 3:2 table.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 9th, 2011 at 8:38:23 PM
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Keep it, his mistake isn't my problem.
I saw the other thread and I have to say if I was at the grocery store and it didn't add up my items correctly in my favor I wouldn't point it out there either. Again, it's not my problem that they fucked up.
I saw the other thread and I have to say if I was at the grocery store and it didn't add up my items correctly in my favor I wouldn't point it out there either. Again, it's not my problem that they fucked up.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
January 9th, 2011 at 8:49:50 PM
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You're probably right DJ.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 9th, 2011 at 8:53:38 PM
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Quote: JimMorrisonhis mistake isn't my problem.
If more people thought like that, there would probably be a lot less lawsuits in the world. Or does it not apply when someones mistake doesnt benefit you?
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January 9th, 2011 at 9:40:43 PM
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Quote: CroupierIf more people thought like that, there would probably be a lot less lawsuits in the world. Or does it not apply when someones mistake doesnt benefit you?
Re JimMorrison's post:
I would assume that the attitude "their mistake isn't my problem" would, for the sake of consistency, dictate that you wouldn't point it out if you were underpaid at the blackjack table, or overcharged at the grocery store. After all, they made the mistake, so it isn't your problem--right?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
January 9th, 2011 at 11:32:42 PM
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If I was working, I'd definately point it out. It's my job to and the obvious answer.
If I was playing, I'd probably be too busy counting and remembering BS to be able to add properly on top of remembering the number in my head. Same if I was underpaid. As long as money came to me and it was in any way larger than the bet, I'd probably not notice.
I know the question was 'if you NOTICED being overpaid' and I havent yet answered that, because I almost always fail to do so. In our gentlemen games, I'm famous for noticing every error by the dealer but never notice when they purposefully under pay me to get back at me for being so anal about their deal, delivery, etc. But by consulting my morals, and figuring the $5 max I would bet in the situation, and assuming I caught every overpayment, I'd let the first mistake slide in a 'did that just happen?' sort of way, and advise of any additional overpay mistakes. If it continued after advisement, I'd shut up and enjoy being the 'victim' of a dealer angry at their place of business who absolutely requires me to allow them to rip their place off ;).
If I was playing, I'd probably be too busy counting and remembering BS to be able to add properly on top of remembering the number in my head. Same if I was underpaid. As long as money came to me and it was in any way larger than the bet, I'd probably not notice.
I know the question was 'if you NOTICED being overpaid' and I havent yet answered that, because I almost always fail to do so. In our gentlemen games, I'm famous for noticing every error by the dealer but never notice when they purposefully under pay me to get back at me for being so anal about their deal, delivery, etc. But by consulting my morals, and figuring the $5 max I would bet in the situation, and assuming I caught every overpayment, I'd let the first mistake slide in a 'did that just happen?' sort of way, and advise of any additional overpay mistakes. If it continued after advisement, I'd shut up and enjoy being the 'victim' of a dealer angry at their place of business who absolutely requires me to allow them to rip their place off ;).
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
January 9th, 2011 at 11:40:31 PM
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I would assume the dealer was giving me a toke and politely would say thank you.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
January 9th, 2011 at 11:44:17 PM
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Quote: Wavy70I would assume the dealer was giving me a toke and politely would say thank you.
Best answer yet!!!!
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January 9th, 2011 at 11:59:51 PM
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Quote: CroupierBest answer yet!!!!
Well I am rather handsome. My mom told me so.
I have a bewitched egg that I use to play VP with and I have net over 900k with it.
January 10th, 2011 at 12:00:42 AM
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Quote: mkl654321Re JimMorrison's post:
I would assume that the attitude "their mistake isn't my problem" would, for the sake of consistency, dictate that you wouldn't point it out if you were underpaid at the blackjack table, or overcharged at the grocery store. After all, they made the mistake, so it isn't your problem--right?
No, then it would be my problem to point out since I was shortchanged.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
January 10th, 2011 at 12:19:03 AM
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Quote: JimMorrisonNo, then it would be my problem to point out since I was shortchanged.
If you have the right to keep the money if you're overpaid, then they have the right to shortchange you.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
January 10th, 2011 at 12:20:44 AM
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Quote: mkl654321If you have the right to keep the money if you're overpaid, then they have the right to shortchange you.
If they pointed out that they overpaid me and I refused to give them money back then your example would make sense.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
January 10th, 2011 at 12:24:15 AM
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Quote: JimMorrisonIf they pointed out that they overpaid me and I refused to give them money back then your example would make sense.
I think this is going at cross purposes. MKL and I are trying to argue that you should react the same whether over or under paid. JimMorrison seems to be arguing that if I benefit great, if I dont I'll say something.
Doesnt look like we will reach common ground on this.
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January 10th, 2011 at 12:27:24 AM
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Quote: CroupierI think this is going at cross purposes. MKL and I are trying to argue that you should react the same whether over or under paid. JimMorrison seems to be arguing that if I benefit great, if I dont I'll say something.
Doesnt look like we will reach common ground on this.
No, since it's largely a matter of ethics.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
January 10th, 2011 at 12:41:49 AM
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It is largely a matter of ethics and I don't think you will find many professional gamblers who would point out if they were overpaid. Maybe that says a lot about the ethics of the group, however I've seen people loan six figures of money on a handshake and every penny was paid back. Right or wrong the casino is the enemy and seen differently. In my opinion, most pit bosses etc don't expect you to point out getting overpaid. Sure they won't complain if you do but it happens and the house absorbs that loss.
I'll tell you a story, I'm a member of the Playboy Club and when it opened up a few years ago they hired hot models as dealers even though they had no experience. Sure they trained them for a few weeks but it was laughable how bad they were. Some of them couldn't even count to 21. For the first few months it was open you could count on getting paid on a lost bet at the very least once a hour. I'm not exaggerating, it was that bad. Every pro I know asked me to take them up there and everyone I took to the club took advantage of this. When you included comps it made the game a slight advantage. Eventually some of the bunnies got better and the others were replaced by hot girls who knew how to deal and interest among my friends in playing blackjack there died down. Never once did anyone I knew question whether this was right or wrong and I guess you could say that says something about us. Long after the fact I told George Maloof this story and he laughed at it and admitted they were awful dealers. Now if the casino owner isn't sweating it I sure as hell won't. If it bothers you then point it out when a mistake is made in your favor, all I ask is you don't say anything if you see a mistake made in my favor.
I'll tell you a story, I'm a member of the Playboy Club and when it opened up a few years ago they hired hot models as dealers even though they had no experience. Sure they trained them for a few weeks but it was laughable how bad they were. Some of them couldn't even count to 21. For the first few months it was open you could count on getting paid on a lost bet at the very least once a hour. I'm not exaggerating, it was that bad. Every pro I know asked me to take them up there and everyone I took to the club took advantage of this. When you included comps it made the game a slight advantage. Eventually some of the bunnies got better and the others were replaced by hot girls who knew how to deal and interest among my friends in playing blackjack there died down. Never once did anyone I knew question whether this was right or wrong and I guess you could say that says something about us. Long after the fact I told George Maloof this story and he laughed at it and admitted they were awful dealers. Now if the casino owner isn't sweating it I sure as hell won't. If it bothers you then point it out when a mistake is made in your favor, all I ask is you don't say anything if you see a mistake made in my favor.
EvenBob: "Look America, I have a tiny wee-wee, can anybody
help me?"
January 10th, 2011 at 1:39:50 AM
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Firstly, I would not be playing this game, even if the smoking hot women are the hottest in the world, I would choose to watch the game rather than play. But assuming I did, the extra money is mine, the game is bad enough, and if the dealer is poorly trained or not paying attention, that's his mistake not mine. I was once over paid on three card poker, the dealer hesitated, then left the over payment. I never said a word.
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/10042-woes-black-sheep-game-ii/#post151727
January 10th, 2011 at 4:37:45 AM
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I offer the thirty dollars to the two smoking hot women ... and get my face slapped.
January 10th, 2011 at 4:45:30 AM
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If I knew or somehow believed that the dealer would get in trouble for that, I would give the money back. But I don't, so I won't.
I don't feel ethically obligated to the casino or any other corporate entities, only to human beings.
I don't feel ethically obligated to the casino or any other corporate entities, only to human beings.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
January 10th, 2011 at 4:54:09 AM
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I know it is still a small sample size, but it is 16 - 5 taking the money. And if I have followed the posts correctly, 3 of the 5 are either dealers or ex dealers. I think I echo weaselman's thoughts. Perhaps I give the money back to the cashier because i know at the end of her shift if she is short that money she gets in trouble/fired. I do not have that fear for the rare overpayment by a dealer at my very low limit table.
January 10th, 2011 at 4:56:02 AM
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Its too paltry for the dealer to get in trouble for it. It would have to be his umteen zillioneth time for the casino to fire him for it. And if it is his umpteenth zillioneth time doing it, then the casino doesn't deserve my concern at all. He is not a bank teller. He doesn't have to "balance" at the end of the day. I'd glance at the young ladies to see their reaction but I'd keep the money.
Dealers over pay and under pay fairly often. Some dealers deal a perfect blackjack hand at a LIR table or something. Even surveillance is supposed to have once phone down about a payment when the dealer had 21 and the pit told surveillance its 3CP, not blackjack. So don't think the casino always knows what they are doing ... and don't focus on the casino's business. Just make sure those smoking hot chicks don't lean over and take your chips.
Dealers over pay and under pay fairly often. Some dealers deal a perfect blackjack hand at a LIR table or something. Even surveillance is supposed to have once phone down about a payment when the dealer had 21 and the pit told surveillance its 3CP, not blackjack. So don't think the casino always knows what they are doing ... and don't focus on the casino's business. Just make sure those smoking hot chicks don't lean over and take your chips.
January 10th, 2011 at 6:55:10 AM
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I got paid 3:2 on an A,9 once and kept my mouth shut. I've been paid for pushes several times and also kept quiet. I definitely keep my mouth shut if I notice a mistake in another player's favor. I've seen a player get paid for a push and we just glanced at each other and smiled or winked. I think this is part of the game, and if the dealer's aren't on the ball, the casino will absorb the loss. That said, I do point out cashiers' errors at the grocery store even if they are in my favor. I figure they need to balance the till at the end of the shift. Ethically, I know there is no difference between that case and BJ, but that's just the way I play.
January 10th, 2011 at 8:01:24 AM
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I haven't received a wrong pay in BJ that I have noticed but I am not much of a BJ player. I have received lots of wrong pays at craps both in my favor and in the houses favor. For a wrong pay I usually just leave the money on the table and look at the dealer. A good dealer will notice the money still on the table and almost allways correct it without any problem. Once in while they will look at me for direction and I will point out the error. If it is a busy hot table and the dice are already on the move then I won't bring the whole table to a grinding halt for 5 or 10 bucks and just pick up the pay if it is till there. And yes I have ignored short pays under that scenerio too.
Occasionaly I have had a dealer overpay me and if I have picked up the chips without noticing the error right away giving me subtle pressure to place the overpay as a dealer bet. Almost like a planned technique of increasing their tips.
On a similar but not gambling related scenerio I have many time been overpayed on an outstanding account receivable with my companies. I would always show this a credit on the payers account and try and get them to use up the credit or issue a credit cheque. Individuals were always happy to get notified and get their payment back. I eventually learned that government agencies were not set up for credits. I would get negative feed back when I pointed out the error since the paperwork for the employee was too much hassle for them or they would get in trouble for making the error in the first place. Eventually I never tried to return any government overpayments because I was made out to be the asshole for bringing it up. Companys that made overpayments were in between, the larger the company the more they acted like the government.
Occasionaly I have had a dealer overpay me and if I have picked up the chips without noticing the error right away giving me subtle pressure to place the overpay as a dealer bet. Almost like a planned technique of increasing their tips.
On a similar but not gambling related scenerio I have many time been overpayed on an outstanding account receivable with my companies. I would always show this a credit on the payers account and try and get them to use up the credit or issue a credit cheque. Individuals were always happy to get notified and get their payment back. I eventually learned that government agencies were not set up for credits. I would get negative feed back when I pointed out the error since the paperwork for the employee was too much hassle for them or they would get in trouble for making the error in the first place. Eventually I never tried to return any government overpayments because I was made out to be the asshole for bringing it up. Companys that made overpayments were in between, the larger the company the more they acted like the government.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
January 10th, 2011 at 8:14:00 AM
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I was playing texas holdem bonus once and the dealer failed to notice that her 4-8o connected to make a straight, instead she announced "8 high" and started paying everyone. It was funny having 4 or 5 people quietly exchange knowing glances at each other and smirking, especially since it was a fairly chatty game up to that point.
If a grocery clerk overchanged me I'd give it back but not the blackjack dealer; I suppose because of a "nobody gets hurt" mentality, unless someone convinced me that the dealer could get in serious trouble for it, which I doubt.
For people who said "point it out", i'd like to ask one question: Suppose the dealer accidentally flashed a 6 to his face up card of king, would you stand your 14, or would you "do the right thing" and hit? Would you pretend never to have received this extra information, since being overpaid and saving a loss are on the same ground morally?
If a grocery clerk overchanged me I'd give it back but not the blackjack dealer; I suppose because of a "nobody gets hurt" mentality, unless someone convinced me that the dealer could get in serious trouble for it, which I doubt.
For people who said "point it out", i'd like to ask one question: Suppose the dealer accidentally flashed a 6 to his face up card of king, would you stand your 14, or would you "do the right thing" and hit? Would you pretend never to have received this extra information, since being overpaid and saving a loss are on the same ground morally?
January 10th, 2011 at 8:16:06 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 10th, 2011 at 8:21:10 AM
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I don't always pay attention to what I get back in change or how I get paid at the table. One time at Epcot I apid for some souvenirs with a $20 and the salesgirls started giving me a $20 back and some singles, rather than a $10. I swear I didn't notice. She did while she was counting it and said so. I think I said "I wouldn't have minded the wrong change." So I took the correct change.
At the 3CP tables I do pay attention because the dealers often forget the ante bonus, especially when you don't play the pair+ bet. But I can still get distracted from time to time. I'd love to say I got paid pair+ when I didn't bet it, but that never happened.
There was the one time at the Excalibur PGP the dealer set his hans wrong. I dni't notice. Another player did and told him he was breaking up a flush to set his hand. Whereas we'd all ahve won with the wrong way, we all pushed with the right one. Had I noticed, I wouldn't have said anything because, I figure, the dealer knows the House Way and I don't.
Now, one time at the supermarket I acciedntally left a tiny packet of mints on the cart. I didn'tunlaod it at the resgister, and I didn't notice it until I was loading the groceries in my car. I did go back and pay for it.
At the 3CP tables I do pay attention because the dealers often forget the ante bonus, especially when you don't play the pair+ bet. But I can still get distracted from time to time. I'd love to say I got paid pair+ when I didn't bet it, but that never happened.
There was the one time at the Excalibur PGP the dealer set his hans wrong. I dni't notice. Another player did and told him he was breaking up a flush to set his hand. Whereas we'd all ahve won with the wrong way, we all pushed with the right one. Had I noticed, I wouldn't have said anything because, I figure, the dealer knows the House Way and I don't.
Now, one time at the supermarket I acciedntally left a tiny packet of mints on the cart. I didn'tunlaod it at the resgister, and I didn't notice it until I was loading the groceries in my car. I did go back and pay for it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
January 10th, 2011 at 8:26:31 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 10th, 2011 at 11:07:29 AM
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So there are I believe only 2 non dealers who would not accept the money. And you, ME, it seems at least peripherally work for a casino or at least have a financial interest in game results being as the math would have them, as you analyze them for casinos. I understand all of your points, but are you surprised by the results of this poll? You may look at the casino industry like any other big business, but clearly you are in the extreme minority. Not that being in this minority isn't more noble... thanks for your input, as always.
January 10th, 2011 at 11:10:42 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 10th, 2011 at 11:27:54 AM
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Quote: gogFor people who said "point it out", i'd like to ask one question: Suppose the dealer accidentally flashed a 6 to his face up card of king, would you stand your 14, or would you "do the right thing" and hit? Would you pretend never to have received this extra information, since being overpaid and saving a loss are on the same ground morally?
No equivalence here. If the house flashes the hole card, it would be pretty unrealistic to expect you NOT to use that information. In fact, a court ruling (I don't know where or when right now) affirmed this. That isn't in the same league with knowing how much you are entitled to be paid and willingly accepting a greater amount while saying nothing.
Also, knowing the dealer's hole card wouldn't necessarily save you from a loss.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
January 10th, 2011 at 11:28:51 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOSo there are I believe only 2 non dealers who would not accept the money. And you, ME, it seems at least peripherally work for a casino or at least have a financial interest in game results being as the math would have them, as you analyze them for casinos. I understand all of your points, but are you surprised by the results of this poll? You may look at the casino industry like any other big business, but clearly you are in the extreme minority. Not that being in this minority isn't more noble... thanks for your input, as always.
No, I'm not surprised, but I *am* fascinated by it. I'm not a psychologist, but I'm keenly interested in what makes people think so differently about gambling than basically everything else. That viewpoint and sensibility pervades public policy when, from an economic standpoint, there seems to be little difference (other than variance) between a gambling transaction and a non-gambling transaction.
And yes, I'm a consultant, primarily to vendors to casinos, but sometimes I get asked questions by casino operators too. But most casino operators either don't need a mathematician or don't think they need a mathematician...
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 10th, 2011 at 11:47:10 AM
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Perhaps because of the general desire to "beat the casino."Quote: MathExtremistNo, I'm not surprised, but I *am* fascinated by it. I'm not a psychologist, but I'm keenly interested in what makes people think so differently about gambling than basically everything else.
Casinos are in business to beat the gambler, so shouldn't the gambler be looking for every opportunity to beat the casino?
Whether it's from finding a successful system, not correcting dealer errors, or plain old Lady Luck, it's all the same to gamblers.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 10th, 2011 at 11:49:43 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 10th, 2011 at 11:56:45 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearPerhaps because of the general desire to "beat the casino."
Casinos are in business to beat the gambler, so shouldn't the gambler be looking for every opportunity to beat the casino?
I don't think it's that simple. If you could just chalk it up to "win at all costs", everyone would use cheat codes in video games, or take steroids in sports, or play dirty in any number of other scenarios. But there's a strong sense of fair play in most competitive activities. Why not in a casino?
Would it change if the casino offered zero-EV bets? Suppose a casino offered the free-odds bets, a coin-flipping game, and casino war with no double-bet requirement. Those are all zero-EV games. Would you accept an overpayment there? Or what if the games were player-positive. If the blackjack dealer rule was "hit on 18s or lower, stand on 19 or higher", would you accept an overpayment in that game?
My guess is that those who would do so, would do so regardless of the edge. That eliminates the issue of the casino having the edge as "justification". So what is it?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 10th, 2011 at 11:57:04 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearCasinos are in business to beat the gambler, so shouldn't the gambler be looking for every opportunity to beat the casino?
The misconception articulated in the above sentence may put the finger on what's being discussed here.
The casino sells entertainment in the form of bets. Those bets have a cost--the house edge. That cost is fixed in the case of those bets where the player's actions don't affect the house edge (like roulette), and variable in the cases where they do affect it (like BJ or VP). In either case, that cost is paid WHEN THE BET IS MADE, not when the bet is settled.
So the casino isn't "in business to beat the gambler", any more than the gas station is "in business to beat the driver" when it sells him a gallon of gas that cost $2.25 for $3.00. A $100 bet on the crap table (Pass Line) costs $1.41. That is the price the player pays for the entertainment value of placing that bet. The house doesn't, and shouldn't, care whether that particular player wins that particular bet or not.
Also, again, the gambler should NOT be looking for every opportunity to beat the casino--just for those opportunities that are ethical. For some people (many, apparently), however, the sets of "every possible opportunity" and "every possibility within my personal ethical boundaries" are exactly congruent.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
January 10th, 2011 at 1:07:23 PM
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Quote: mkl654321For some people (many, apparently), however, the sets of "every possible opportunity" and "every possibility within my personal ethical boundaries" are exactly congruent.
No, what we have here is the set of "every possibility within my personal ethical boundaries" is different from "every possibility within MLK's ethical boundaries".
I never tell the house if they over pay me, unless it an obvious error, or I'm liking the dealers. I've been mispaid at craps a fair amount, and will note it if my pay out is under. If it's over, train the staff better.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
January 10th, 2011 at 1:13:29 PM
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I actually agree with you.Quote: mkl654321The misconception articulated in the above sentence ....
I was not stating a fact that the casinos are out to beat the gambler. I was stating a mindset why the gambler feels justified to beat the casino when opportunities like these arise.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 10th, 2011 at 1:27:41 PM
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Lets say you are at a 3:2 game and the dealer pays you 6:5 and you did not notice, I say there is a very very slim chance that you see that money they under paid you come your way. I say you watch out for your money and the casino watches out for there money.
January 10th, 2011 at 1:53:23 PM
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Quote: gogIf a grocery clerk overchanged me I'd give it back but not the blackjack dealer; I suppose because of a "nobody gets hurt" mentality, unless someone convinced me that the dealer could get in serious trouble for it, which I doubt.
I would say it's more that the grocery shop clerk is personally responsible for paying out the cash to his/her bosses, while in case of a casino, it's the big corporate casino that loses out. What's more, the casino by design expects to have random losses, and since it flashes money around so blatantly, it's hard to think of it as barely scraping by (even in the rare cases it is).
Finally, don't players ever make mistakes? Of course they do. And these rarely get corrected. In a game that already has a house edge, the dealer making a mistake is not very different from a player making one.
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January 10th, 2011 at 2:03:11 PM
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I wonder what the Wizard's opinion is currently, regarding dealer errors that overpay the player. The last question at this link at WoO indicates that six years ago his position was, "Personally I just keep my mouth shut."
For those of you who have been so critical in this thread of others you think are "stealing the money", do you consider the Wizard to be an unethical player in the casinos?
For those of you who have been so critical in this thread of others you think are "stealing the money", do you consider the Wizard to be an unethical player in the casinos?
January 10th, 2011 at 2:03:41 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistWould it change if the casino offered zero-EV bets? Suppose a casino offered the free-odds bets, a coin-flipping game, and casino war with no double-bet requirement. Those are all zero-EV games. Would you accept an overpayment there? Or what if the games were player-positive.
I personally would try to return overpayment in a +EV game, or even in a low -EV one, if I am ahead. If I'm at a net loss so far, or the game has outrageous rules (like 5:6 BJ on a cruise ship, leaving no choice), I would keep it in any case. I know mathematically it doesn't matter if I win or lose, as I paid for taking chances, but I don't feel that way. And it's ultimately all about how one feels: I would feel bad about accepting overpayment if already ahead, but not about having some of my losses reduced.
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