Would you be honest like me
About two weeks ago someone got arrested and fined S$1500 for doing the exact same thing I was considering doing. Honesty is best.
Maybe in US Casino's there might be a different situation if punters are not requered to produce ID.
Quote: Pando
Maybe in US Casino's there might be a different situation if punters are not requered to produce ID.
Depends are where you go. In some casinos if you find a cash ticket on the floor and don't turn it in, they'll call the police on you. I heard of a woman being arrested for finding a $20 bill on the floor and putting it into a slot machine. Yet in Vegas there are people who eek out a living by prowling the casinos looking for money that are left in them by patrons.
Now, if you were what we call a 'flea' (a parasite, hopping from machine to machine, taking from the 'host') and intentionally taking any ticket not being watched, then you almost definately would be excluded indefinately, charged with petit theft AND still have to pay restitution. And you're right, we have the identities of nearly everyone that games at our casino. And if we don't, the camera's in the parking lots + the onsite law enforcement could run your plate, which means the police would be waiting for you at your house when you get home.
You did the right thing and you did the smart thing. Taking it would have been similar to any gamble in the casino, with the HA possibly the highest of all. $70 might have gotten you an hour of extra gaming? You might have made another $70 off it, if you were super lucky. Or, with all the casino's player tracking and camera's stacked against you, you could have to pay 20 x's more money, lose multiple hours of your day dealing with the authorities and have your whole week ruined. You did the smart thing, not to mention classy. Kudos to you.
Quote: FaceAt the tribal casino located in NY where I work, there are different classifications for 'lost' tickets..
Most people have no idea what the laws are in the casinos they go to. They think everything found is 'finders keepers, losers weepers' and thats as far from the truth as you can get. I found $68 abandoned in a machine last year and I sat down and waited about 10min, then put in 10$ and hit the button a couple times and took the ticket. My bad. I once saw a casino employee standing on a $10 bill and he said he has to wait for security to arrive so they could pick it up. He also told me to do the same or I could possibly get into trouble picking up a lost bill because it doesn't belong to me.
Quote: FaceIf someone were to just find a lost ticket, as you had, we would ALWAYS ask for it back. It's just good customer service to the patron who lost it.
I may be a bit cynical, but by this statement may I assume that the casino you work for then checks who the rightful owner of the ticket is and returns the money to them. If not I don't see how it is good customer service.
Quote: EvenBobMost people have no idea what the laws are in the casinos they go to. They think everything found is 'finders keepers, losers weepers' and thats as far from the truth as you can get. I found $68 abandoned in a machine last year and I sat down and waited about 10min, then put in 10$ and hit the button a couple times and took the ticket. My bad. I once saw a casino employee standing on a $10 bill and he said he has to wait for security to arrive so they could pick it up. He also told me to do the same or I could possibly get into trouble picking up a lost bill because it doesn't belong to me.
I wonder over the years how many people have been nabbed by security for picking up their own money that they dropped.
Quote: ahiromuI find it appalling that you can get in legal trouble for something like this. Absolutely ridiculous.
No...Absolutely about time. Be a petty thief, win a pair of handcuffs, totally appropriate.
Quote: PaigowdanNo...Absolutely about time. Be a petty thief, win a pair of handcuffs, totally appropriate.
Most people don't know (hard to believe) but what you find in the street is NOT your's, it belongs to somebody. If you take it without turning to over to authorities, its considered theft. I always laugh when people get conned into sharing 'found' money, only to get ripped off themselves. Your own greed will get you every time.
And I (somewhat) agree ahiromu. I grew up knowing to keep track your stuff lest you lose it. Losing it is a lesson learned and teaches you to watch your belongings. Of course I'm just a jaded member of the casino workforce that's tired of babysitting drunkards possessions and spending time looking for $20 vouchers while $800 in top shelf liquor is being snuck out the back, but I suppose it's worth the paycheck. But in the case of 'fleas', I absolutely consider it theft and I highly enjoy busting them. Some of the joy comes from the fact that my family games here and I'm protecting them from being ripped off, but mostly it's because I really hate spending so much time looking for 'lost' items. Getting flea's kicked means there's one less person causing me 5 hours of work to 'save' $20 and gets me back to protecting the casino's assets and patrons.
And at the risk of being labeled 'stereotypical', if I may get back to the OP's topic, I wouldn't do anything even remotely dishonest in Singapore. I've never been there so couldn't speak from experience, but many of the crazy stories of minor infractions resulting in severe punishment seem to come from there, so best to keep your nose clean.
Quote: PaigowdanNo...Absolutely about time. Be a petty thief, win a pair of handcuffs, totally appropriate.
How is finding money the same as theft? It is one thing to steal a ticket but if you walk up to a Coke machine and it already has enough credit for a soda do you hit the coin return button and search out a security guard or employee to return the money and ask them if they could check if any security cameras captured who put the money in so it may be returned?
Casino's have made interesting "rules" when it comes to money. By and large anything that hits the floor is considered property of the casino. Does anyone here honestly think that the casino takes the effort to check the records of which players card was being used while this ticket was generated?
Quote: FaceYes, Wavy. Through use of their player's card and confirmation from Surveillance, we verify that the claimant indeed lost whatever they claim and that the suspect was indeed the one who picked it up. This is done before anyone is approached to prevent false accusations. Once everything is verified and suspect is approached, the item/currency is returned to the claimant. Sometimes the claimant is left out to dry, like cases of 'abandoned credits' where they simply leave their money on the machine for an extended period of time. There's not a whole bunch we can do in that case, yet some will still try. Like I said, it depends on the amount lost and the Supervisor you happen to get stuck with.
Sorry coulda been clearer. I don't doubt that when a patron says they had a ticket stolen they check but in the situation if someone finds a ticket or a $100 on the floor and turns it into the security I doubt any effort is made to recoup the person who lost it. Call my a cynic but normally I am an optimist!
Quote: Wavy70How is finding money the same as theft?
If you drop your money clip on the sidewalk and there it is right in front of you, who does it belong to, you or the first person to come along? You, obviously. If your two blocks away, who does it belong to now? Did your ownership of the clip decline just because you walked away?
Quote: Wavy70Casino's have made interesting "rules" when it comes to money. By and large anything that hits the floor is considered property of the casino. Does anyone here honestly think that the casino takes the effort to check the records of which players card was being used while this ticket was generated?
Yes again, Wavy. We do check the info given on the players card vs. identification of the claimant. In cases of patrons with no players card, Surveillance is quite sufficient. You physically see the patron drop it, see what they look like, compare it to the claimant and make the decision. If the amount is large i.e. $100+ and NO ONE has reported a lost and found, we'll even track the patron down ourselves, often times with the patron not even knowing they lost anything.
If the something is lost with no claim, and we can't find them ourselves, it's donated to the Head Start program if it's money (child education) or to the Tribal Advocate if it's items (go to the elderly and less fortunate). Nothing found is given to or kept for anyone employee'd by the casino or the casino itself. Of course, this is only our small corner of the world, I haven't a clue about anywhere else.
Quote: EvenBobIf you drop your money clip on the sidewalk and there it is right in front of you, who does it belong to, you or the first person to come along? You, obviously. If your two blocks away, who does it belong to now? Did your ownership of the clip decline just because you walked away?
Perhaps, however in the real world (Non Casino) you would take the found money clip to the police and if after x amount of time if no one claims the lost money it is reverted to the finder.
But back to the question of ownership of found money. Correct me if I am wrong but US currency is considered a bearers certificate so do you still own it once you lose it?
Keep in mind I am looking from solely a USA aspect. Singapore, well they got some funky laws.
Quote: FaceYes again, Wavy. We do check the info given on the players card vs. identification of the claimant. In cases of patrons with no players card, Surveillance is quite sufficient. You physically see the patron drop it, see what they look like, compare it to the claimant and make the decision. If the amount is large i.e. $100+ and NO ONE has reported a lost and found, we'll even track the patron down ourselves, often times with the patron not even knowing they lost anything.
If the something is lost with no claim, and we can't find them ourselves, it's donated to the Head Start program if it's money (child education) or to the Tribal Advocate if it's items (go to the elderly and less fortunate). Nothing found is given to or kept for anyone employee'd by the casino or the casino itself. Of course, this is only our small corner of the world, I haven't a clue about anywhere else.
I would commend your casino if they go through that amount of effort. But I would be shocked to find that the norm throughout the industry.
Quote: Wavy70Correct me if I am wrong but US currency is considered a bearers certificate so do you still own it once you lose it?
.
You absolutely own it and its enforceable on the person who finds it. Try this on for size. If it weren't enforceable, you could break into somebodies house, steal his property, throw it in the street as lost, and claim it as your own. It doesn't work that way, your property is always yours unless sold, given away, or abandoned for a length of time.
Quote: EvenBobYou absolutely own it and its enforceable on the person who finds it. Try this on for size. If it weren't enforceable, you could break into somebodies house, steal his property, throw it in the street as lost, and claim it as your own. It doesn't work that way, your property is always yours unless sold, given away, or abandoned for a length of time.
I think you may be arguing from extremes. If you break into someones home and take their money you have already committed a crime. So yes throwing the money on the ground and picking it up does not negate the previous crime.
I find a pile of money wrapped in a headband in a food court at a mall. I give the money to the police. The police hold the money for almost 2 years and post notices in the paper. No one legitimate comes to claim the money. Who owns the money?
From your argument the act of finding the money seems akin to a crime in it's own.
Quote: PandoThe fact that the casino was in Singapore was certainly a motivating factor for me. It sure is a place to keep your nose clean, especially if you want to go back again at any time.
That is a place that has more rules than a Soviet gulag. I would obey the law there, albeit full of fear that I was inadvertently breaking the law, by breathing too loudly or wearing the wrong color shirt or something. I would consider running to the airport and boarding the next airplane out of there, except I would probably be arrested for running in a public place.
Quote: Wavy70
I find a pile of money wrapped in a headband in a food court at a mall. I give the money to the police. The police hold the money for almost 2 years and post notices in the paper. No one legitimate comes to claim the money. Who owns the money?
.
You do because its now abandoned property.
Quote: EvenBobYou do because its now abandoned property.
Lost/abandoned, isn't that what this has been about? As I said only in Casino world is lost money theirs. Everywhere else it's finders keepers.
Quote: Wavy70Lost/abandoned, isn't that what this has been about? As I said only in Casino world is lost money theirs. Everywhere else it's finders keepers.
The real issue seems to be whether people think that the casino makes any kind of good-faith effort to identify the owner of lost money/a lost cash ticket, or it simply tells the finder that "anything on the floor belongs to the casino", which is a little less defensible. But I don't agree with "finders keepers" either--that's what they say on the playground at recess, but it isn't true or accepted even there. It's morally wrong to take possession of property that, while you may not know its owner, you KNOW it isn't yours. And as a practical matter, if "finders keepers" was the rule, people would chain their belongings to their bodies, and generally live in a constant state of hypercautious paranoia. Also, no one would ever park and leave their car without a Club, a steering interlock, and an explosive booby trap wired to the ignition.
So I think if the casino is just going to glom onto the money/ticket after it's turned in, then it belongs to the finder. If the casino is actually going to try to identify who it belongs to and return it to that person, then it still belongs to the original owner, and the casino should take custody of it.
Quote: Wavy70Lost/abandoned, isn't that what this has been about? As I said only in Casino world is lost money theirs. Everywhere else it's finders keepers.
NO its NOT!!!! If you find money in the street, it belongs to the person who lost it. Ditto in the casino. You turn it over to authorities until its officially abandoned property. Get it?
Quote: EvenBobNO its NOT!!!! If you find money in the street, it belongs to the person who lost it. Ditto in the casino. You turn it over to authorities until its officially abandoned property. Get it?
Bob you seem to be getting a bit agitated. that is not my intention. This is a debate of thoughts and ideas. So no need for me to "Get it" if I do not agree wiht you.
However you are also picking and choosing parts of my post. As I said you find money. Turn it in to the police. After x amount of time no one claims it and a good faith effort is made to find the owner the money is now the possession of the finder. This happens everyday.
In you case the money perpetually belongs to the person who lost it?
It is not a crime to find money.
Just curious.
Quote: mkl654321But I don't agree with "finders keepers" either--that's what they say on the playground at recess, but it isn't true or accepted even there. It's morally wrong to take possession of property that, while you may not know its owner, you KNOW it isn't yours. And as a practical matter, if "finders keepers" was the rule, people would chain their belongings to their bodies, and generally live in a constant state of hypercautious paranoia. Also, no one would ever park and leave their car without a Club, a steering interlock, and an explosive booby trap wired to the ignition.
MKL as I have said. You find money. Good faith effort is made to find the owner but none is found. So the finder is now the keeper.
People don't generally drop their car on the ground while reaching for a Kleenex. So there is a big extreme between finding a $100 bill laying next to the curb and a Ford next to the curb. Once again the act of finding money is being equated with stealing a car.
I am not sure how the act of stealing someones car is the same as finding $ on the ground. So you think "Find a penny pick it up all the day you will have good luck" should end in a hefty jail sentence?
Quote: rxwineHow come stuff found in the street like cans or returnable bottles (that are worth money) don't have the same requirements?
Just curious.
I honestly hope you make every effort to find the owner of the Pepsi Max can to inform them of the .05 (.10 in MI) they lost.
Quote: Wavy70
In you case the money perpetually belongs to the person who lost it?
Are you being purposely obtuse? Or are you impaired in some way from understanding what has been said now half a dozen times. In either case, I'm done with it.
Quote: EvenBobAre you being purposely obtuse? Or are you impaired in some way from understanding what has been said now half a dozen times. In either case, I'm done with it.
That's funny I was gonna ask you the same but I didn't want to come off as obnoxious.
Like I said you seem to like to pick parts of my post instead of the whole. So I agree we should be done since you can't seem to grasp more than one sentance at a time.
Once again you seem quite agitated and that was never my intention. Just a exchange of ideas. Just because someone does not agree with you does not make them wrong. It's a big world and sometimes you may find you are not always correct. But you have to listen first.
Quote: FaceIf I may, I think Wavy your saying it's suspect that in life you're 'rewarded' with the item if it remains unclaimed, where in the casino world it goes to the casino? If so, then I suspect you're right in your thinking and now that you brought it up, I also find it as odd. Even in my casino where money/items are given to charity, those charities are a part of the tribe which also owns the casino, so in a way it's still going to the 'owner'. It's slightly different than a privately owned casino where this capitol may end up with the owner who is a single person, but for this discussions sake I think it amounts to about the same. If someone were to drop a sack of cash in a restaurant I owned and a customer found it, I doubt I'd be afforded the opportunity to put it in my own safe keeping and keep it myself if I couldn't find the owner, which is exactly what happens in casino's.
Yes. You musta read my entire post!
Even in the case when a casino gives found money to a charity the donation is tax deductible which would lower taxes which would increase revenue.
I think some here have confused what they think is "Correct" and what happens in the real world.
I was in a casino a few years back, playing three card poker, and the guy to my left was sitting behind an ever increasing stack of chips. I was watching him very closely, thinking something was up, but he had a very good relationship with both the dealer and the pit boss, and every dealer that appeared after a shift change, it was obvious that this guy had been playing there for a very long time, and assumed he was just being very very lucky. Then a few hours later, two men with no necks turned up, practically lifted him from his seat and dragged him out the door, without a word being said. It was a whole 10 minutes before the pit boss told the dealer what was going on. He was putting an extra £5 chip on his ante and bet when he had a qualifying hand, and removing a £5 chip when he folded, under the guise of how he placed his cards when called or folded. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I never noticed a thing. The pitboss said she had rewound the tape to the beginning of the day and he had done it every time. She said he often turned up with roses and chocolates for the dealers, and he was the last person she would of suspected of such an action. I asked what they were going to do, she said he has just been banned, and that there wasn't anything else they could do. The casino in question is the same chain that Croupier works at, I will ask him if he knows the official stance on such actions.
Quote: WizardofEnglandThe pitboss said she had rewound the tape to the beginning of the day and he had done it every time. She said he often turned up with roses and chocolates for the dealers, and he was the last person she would of suspected of such an action
Smart guy. The pro's say to always butter up the pit and they'll never suspect you of anything. Unless you get too greedy, of course.
The Floor, The Pit and Surveillance are not supposed to believe in someone just being very lucky.Quote: WizardofEnglandit was obvious that this guy had been playing there for a very long time, and assumed he was just being very very lucky.
Quote: FleaStiffThe Floor, The Pit and Surveillance are not supposed to believe in someone just being very lucky.
I guess so, but casinos here are not the same as vegas. I doubt they have a surveillance team bigger than 2 people.
Quote: EvenBobIf you drop your money clip on the sidewalk and there it is right in front of you, who does it belong to, you or the first person to come along? You, obviously. If your two blocks away, who does it belong to now? Did your ownership of the clip decline just because you walked away?
So it can't be picked up by anyone other than the loser. Better not even sweep it up! It stays right there until the wind or rain moves it, but wherever it lands it still belongs to the loser. However, if it is blown into a casino it then belongs to them.
Quote: Wavy70MKL as I have said. You find money. Good faith effort is made to find the owner but none is found.
You're obscuring the question by using the passive voice. Good faith effort "is made". By whom? The finder of the money? If so, who judges what constitutes a "good faith" effort? Does the finder put an ad in the paper? Inform security that he's found something valuable, and give them his cell phone number? Whisper "hey, anybody lose a bunch of money?" and receiving no answer, put it in his pocket?
The only way this could be handled fairly is if the money was turned over to a third party, i.e., the casino or the police. Otherwise, I don't have very much good faith in the finder's good faith efforts to find the owner.
Quote: mkl654321You're obscuring the question by using the passive voice. Good faith effort "is made". By whom? The finder of the money? If so, who judges what constitutes a "good faith" effort? Does the finder put an ad in the paper? Inform security that he's found something valuable, and give them his cell phone number? Whisper "hey, anybody lose a bunch of money?" and receiving no answer, put it in his pocket?
The only way this could be handled fairly is if the money was turned over to a third party, i.e., the casino or the police. Otherwise, I don't have very much good faith in the finder's good faith efforts to find the owner.
Once again picking and choosing what you reply to. As I said 3 times Good faith effort consisted of reporting the found money to the police. The police posting notices, no people can correctly identify the money or where it was lost. After X amount of time the police revert the money to the person who found it. I am unsure how you have missed that in my last several posts.
Please define "You're obscuring the question by using the passive voice."? If you are infering tone to my text I have no control over that.
Quote: Wavy70Once again picking and choosing what you reply to. As I said 3 times Good faith effort consisted of reporting the found money to the police. The police posting notices, no people can correctly identify the money or where it was lost. After X amount of time the police revert the money to the person who found it. I am unsure how you have missed that in my last several posts.
Please define "You're obscuring the question by using the passive voice."? If you are infering tone to my text I have no control over that.
I was referring to that in the grammatical sense. "Honest effort is made" is a weaker statement than "The finder makes an honest effort".
Quote: WizardofEnglandI think the rules here are slightly different. As far as I am aware, cheating in a casino is not a legal offence. Also some casinos dont require any ID to gain entry, or to play the games, or to make a withdrawal (up to £500). As for cashing someone else's ticket. I imagine that it would be possible to do, if you were that way inclined, but you would have to be at the casino without being a member, without having a car parked nearby, to be able to get away with it. I think that is just to much hassle to warrant doing all of that.
I was in a casino a few years back, playing three card poker, and the guy to my left was sitting behind an ever increasing stack of chips. I was watching him very closely, thinking something was up, but he had a very good relationship with both the dealer and the pit boss, and every dealer that appeared after a shift change, it was obvious that this guy had been playing there for a very long time, and assumed he was just being very very lucky. Then a few hours later, two men with no necks turned up, practically lifted him from his seat and dragged him out the door, without a word being said. It was a whole 10 minutes before the pit boss told the dealer what was going on. He was putting an extra £5 chip on his ante and bet when he had a qualifying hand, and removing a £5 chip when he folded, under the guise of how he placed his cards when called or folded. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I never noticed a thing. The pitboss said she had rewound the tape to the beginning of the day and he had done it every time. She said he often turned up with roses and chocolates for the dealers, and he was the last person she would of suspected of such an action. I asked what they were going to do, she said he has just been banned, and that there wasn't anything else they could do. The casino in question is the same chain that Croupier works at, I will ask him if he knows the official stance on such actions.
As far as I know, the person would be nationally barred from all our casinos, and his identity circulated to all other casinos in the country. They would also be escorted out by the manager. We dont have any no necked goons I am afraid. Not unless they hide them well.
As for the legal implications I am not sure.
A similar situation occured where I work, a trusted inspector (supervisor of dealers) was passing out black chips hidden in stacks of blue colour chips on roulette. It was thought they got away with a large amount of money over a period of time. The police were definately interested in both of them. But I have not been updated on what happened since.
Quote: CroupierAs far as I know, the person would be nationally barred from all our casinos, and his identity circulated to all other casinos in the country. They would also be escorted out by the manager. We dont have any no necked goons I am afraid. Not unless they hide them well.
As for the legal implications I am not sure.
A similar situation occured where I work, a trusted inspector (supervisor of dealers) was passing out black chips hidden in stacks of blue colour chips on roulette. It was thought they got away with a large amount of money over a period of time. The police were definately interested in both of them. But I have not been updated on what happened since.
The casino in question was the Vic. The no-neck goons usually deter the riff raff at the door.
Quote: WizardofEnglandThe casino in question was the Vic. The no-neck goons usually deter the riff raff at the door.
Should have guessed it was the Vic. That explains a lot about the wat he was "escorted" out too. Good deterrent.
