Overturning a trespass

It's been awhile since I overturned a trespass (I didn't want to discuss too closely after the fact) but for the forum I will discuss how I did it and how it's possible.

The circumstances were specifically geared here to make it happen. I don't profess it will work everywhere.

And no, it's not a trespass for me. One of my workers got trespassed and for various reasons I needed him back inside on a regular basis. I hit different locations and he was handling this specific one again for various reasons.

So I wrote all the correspondence for him to send in and within two weeks his total trespass from the property was removed. (We tested in various ways to determine if they were following him around before he reshouldered his responsibilities)

First let me tell you who not to write the letter to. Don't write to security. They are just dumb and against you. Instead I directed correspondence straight to the attorneys on record for the casino.

It was a strong demanding letter that they remove any trespass or face a lawsuit.

Long story short, they called him to say they would remove the trespass immediately. So he goes in, and is immediately surrounded by security and told hell no, he's not allowed inside. Then half an hour later he gets another phone call telling him that was a mistake and he's not trespassed.

Then he returns (a different day each time if that wasn't clear) and is surrounded by security and kicked back out. Only to get another call this time apologizing profusely and asking he not come back for one week while they communicate to everyone that he definitely is not trespassed

I am pretty certain what was happening was legal was saying you better lift the trespass and security was not interested but legal won out.

The details of the trespass are important and I will have to leave a few things out to avoid identifying the casino but here goes.

He was originally trespassed WITHOUT knowledge at s sister property. They observed (I imagine multi carding for me) and trespassed him behind closed doors

That trespassed him at this current property.

Years went by while he gambled and played unaware. One day he went over the limit for cashing out at a redemption machine and unaware there was a problem went to cash at the cashier. After showing ID, he was told he was trespassed there and denied payment. In addition they told him that voucher was now flagged so only he could cash it. Perhaps because he is a big guy (football player big) the casino summoned police who told him they would escort him out.

In my correspondence I noted a few things

1) violation of fourteenth amendment rights, using government actors under color of law to separate him from his property (his own cash he tried to redeem and escorted out by police).

2) the voucher in this particular location says it's a bearer bond and that particular state has specific banking laws that a) prohibited banking from not honoring a bearer bond and b) made it illegal to turn a bearer bond into a personal check defined by linking a name to the bearer bond - basically what they did when they flagged the anonymous bearer bond to his name).

3) Besides in violation of local banking laws, I notified them that nowhere does the common law right to trespass confer the right to theft of property or right to refuse fiduciary obligations.

4) I pointed out that a person must be notified when they are trespassed and surprised in the manner he was.

5) and finally and I suppose this one is highly important to this case, this particular casino doesn't let ANYONE inside without showing and scanning ID at the front entrance. I noted that nowhere even in common law right to refusal does a proprietor have the right to ALLOW a patron in repeatedly until a fiduciary obligation is required and they can now use trespass not to pay. In other words, he announced his presence on the casino property every single day he was inside (,for whatever reason they had his name only flagged at the cashier).

So, yes, very specific instances and again, I don't profess this work everywhere. Depends on the circumstances. But if you want to overturn a ban, and you think you have the right circumstances, confer only with their attorneys and don't be humble. Be strong and threaten lawsuit...and cite a few statutes if you can.

Quote: darkoz

It's been awhile since I overturned a trespass (I didn't want to discuss too closely after the fact) but for the forum I will discuss how I did it and how it's possible.

The circumstances were specifically geared here to make it happen. I don't profess it will work everywhere.

And no, it's not a trespass for me. One of my workers got trespassed and for various reasons I needed him back inside on a regular basis. I hit different locations and he was handling this specific one again for various reasons.

So I wrote all the correspondence for him to send in and within two weeks his total trespass from the property was removed. (We tested in various ways to determine if they were following him around before he reshouldered his responsibilities)

First let me tell you who not to write the letter to. Don't write to security. They are just dumb and against you. Instead I directed correspondence straight to the attorneys on record for the casino.

It was a strong demanding letter that they remove any trespass or face a lawsuit.

Long story short, they called him to say they would remove the trespass immediately. So he goes in, and is immediately surrounded by security and told hell no, he's not allowed inside. Then half an hour later he gets another phone call telling him that was a mistake and he's not trespassed.

Then he returns (a different day each time if that wasn't clear) and is surrounded by security and kicked back out. Only to get another call this time apologizing profusely and asking he not come back for one week while they communicate to everyone that he definitely is not trespassed

I am pretty certain what was happening was legal was saying you better lift the trespass and security was not interested but legal won out.

The details of the trespass are important and I will have to leave a few things out to avoid identifying the casino but here goes.

He was originally trespassed WITHOUT knowledge at s sister property. They observed (I imagine multi carding for me) and trespassed him behind closed doors

That trespassed him at this current property.

Years went by while he gambled and played unaware. One day he went over the limit for cashing out at a redemption machine and unaware there was a problem went to cash at the cashier. After showing ID, he was told he was trespassed there and denied payment. In addition they told him that voucher was now flagged so only he could cash it. Perhaps because he is a big guy (football player big) the casino summoned police who told him they would escort him out.

In my correspondence I noted a few things

1) violation of fourteenth amendment rights, using government actors under color of law to separate him from his property (his own cash he tried to redeem and escorted out by police).

2) the voucher in this particular location says it's a bearer bond and that particular state has specific banking laws that a) prohibited banking from not honoring a bearer bond and b) made it illegal to turn a bearer bond into a personal check defined by linking a name to the bearer bond - basically what they did when they flagged the anonymous bearer bond to his name).

3) Besides in violation of local banking laws, I notified them that nowhere does the common law right to trespass confer the right to theft of property or right to refuse fiduciary obligations.

4) I pointed out that a person must be notified when they are trespassed and surprised in the manner he was.

5) and finally and I suppose this one is highly important to this case, this particular casino doesn't let ANYONE inside without showing and scanning ID at the front entrance. I noted that nowhere even in common law right to refusal does a proprietor have the right to ALLOW a patron in repeatedly until a fiduciary obligation is required and they can now use trespass not to pay. In other words, he announced his presence on the casino property every single day he was inside (,for whatever reason they had his name only flagged at the cashier).

So, yes, very specific instances and again, I don't profess this work everywhere. Depends on the circumstances. But if you want to overturn a ban, and you think you have the right circumstances, confer only with their attorneys and don't be humble. Be strong and threaten lawsuit...and cite a few statutes if you can.
link to original post

Can I get a short version of this? Mainly what state?

If whatever he wrote was anything like this

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/38859-coach-challenge-ruling-appeal/

(and included phrases such as fourteenth amendment , government actors under color of law , bearer bond , local banking laws , common law right to trespass , fiduciary obligations)

then I respectfully decline to believe that this happened the way or because of what he claims.

It could simply be that the casino had a good laugh at the letter and it all came down to that the person was never notified of the trespass.


Can't see why they wouldn't just trespass anew now, and do it right.

Quote: MDawg

If whatever he wrote was anything like this

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/38859-coach-challenge-ruling-appeal/

(and included phrases such as fourteenth amendment , government actors under color of law , bearer bond , local banking laws , common law right to trespass , fiduciary obligations)

then I respectfully decline to believe that this happened the way or because of what he claims.

It could simply be that the casino had a good laugh at the letter and it all came down to that the person was never notified of the trespass.


Can't see why they wouldn't just trespass anew now, and do it right.
link to original post

Saved for posterity to show he is insulting me and calling me a liar

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

It's been awhile since I overturned a trespass (I didn't want to discuss too closely after the fact) but for the forum I will discuss how I did it and how it's possible.

The circumstances were specifically geared here to make it happen. I don't profess it will work everywhere.

And no, it's not a trespass for me. One of my workers got trespassed and for various reasons I needed him back inside on a regular basis. I hit different locations and he was handling this specific one again for various reasons.

So I wrote all the correspondence for him to send in and within two weeks his total trespass from the property was removed. (We tested in various ways to determine if they were following him around before he reshouldered his responsibilities)

First let me tell you who not to write the letter to. Don't write to security. They are just dumb and against you. Instead I directed correspondence straight to the attorneys on record for the casino.

It was a strong demanding letter that they remove any trespass or face a lawsuit.

Long story short, they called him to say they would remove the trespass immediately. So he goes in, and is immediately surrounded by security and told hell no, he's not allowed inside. Then half an hour later he gets another phone call telling him that was a mistake and he's not trespassed.

Then he returns (a different day each time if that wasn't clear) and is surrounded by security and kicked back out. Only to get another call this time apologizing profusely and asking he not come back for one week while they communicate to everyone that he definitely is not trespassed

I am pretty certain what was happening was legal was saying you better lift the trespass and security was not interested but legal won out.

The details of the trespass are important and I will have to leave a few things out to avoid identifying the casino but here goes.

He was originally trespassed WITHOUT knowledge at s sister property. They observed (I imagine multi carding for me) and trespassed him behind closed doors

That trespassed him at this current property.

Years went by while he gambled and played unaware. One day he went over the limit for cashing out at a redemption machine and unaware there was a problem went to cash at the cashier. After showing ID, he was told he was trespassed there and denied payment. In addition they told him that voucher was now flagged so only he could cash it. Perhaps because he is a big guy (football player big) the casino summoned police who told him they would escort him out.

In my correspondence I noted a few things

1) violation of fourteenth amendment rights, using government actors under color of law to separate him from his property (his own cash he tried to redeem and escorted out by police).

2) the voucher in this particular location says it's a bearer bond and that particular state has specific banking laws that a) prohibited banking from not honoring a bearer bond and b) made it illegal to turn a bearer bond into a personal check defined by linking a name to the bearer bond - basically what they did when they flagged the anonymous bearer bond to his name).

3) Besides in violation of local banking laws, I notified them that nowhere does the common law right to trespass confer the right to theft of property or right to refuse fiduciary obligations.

4) I pointed out that a person must be notified when they are trespassed and surprised in the manner he was.

5) and finally and I suppose this one is highly important to this case, this particular casino doesn't let ANYONE inside without showing and scanning ID at the front entrance. I noted that nowhere even in common law right to refusal does a proprietor have the right to ALLOW a patron in repeatedly until a fiduciary obligation is required and they can now use trespass not to pay. In other words, he announced his presence on the casino property every single day he was inside (,for whatever reason they had his name only flagged at the cashier).

So, yes, very specific instances and again, I don't profess this work everywhere. Depends on the circumstances. But if you want to overturn a ban, and you think you have the right circumstances, confer only with their attorneys and don't be humble. Be strong and threaten lawsuit...and cite a few statutes if you can.
link to original post

Can I get a short version of this? Mainly what state?
link to original post

Sorry kept certain aspects vague for a reason.

It wasn't Vegas.

Quote: MDawg

If whatever he wrote was anything like this

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/38859-coach-challenge-ruling-appeal/

(and included phrases such as fourteenth amendment , government actors under color of law , bearer bond , local banking laws , common law right to trespass , fiduciary obligations)

link to original post

You believe only lawyers understand what those terms mean?

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MDawg

If whatever he wrote was anything like this

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/38859-coach-challenge-ruling-appeal/

(and included phrases such as fourteenth amendment , government actors under color of law , bearer bond , local banking laws , common law right to trespass , fiduciary obligations)

link to original post

You believe only lawyers understand what those terms mean?
link to original post

I'm not sure I've ever heard the phrase "Color of law" used properly, and when people start talking about the 14th Amendment, it's a sure sign they got their law degree from YouTube.

"I wanted to get up and slap him on the back. I had one of those renewals of complete faith in him that I'd experienced before."

It's sad that even lawyers don't understand the 14th amendment apparently.

But it does feel good to be so much smarter and others don't even realize it

Fill me in. Let’s say the specific trespass you are fighting is reversed. Is there anything stopping the casino from just issuing a new trespass order? I thought they could trespass anyone for any ‘non protected class’ reason?

Can they not trespass you, per se, but not allow you to gamble on any table games or machines?

Quote: SOOPOO

Fill me in. Let’s say the specific trespass you are fighting is reversed. Is there anything stopping the casino from just issuing a new trespass order? I thought they could trespass anyone for any ‘non protected class’ reason?

Can they not trespass you, per se, but not allow you to gamble on any table games or machines?
link to original post

It's by jurisdiction. Unfortunately it's become common belief that you can be trespassed for any reason excluding bias anywhere in the United States but that's actually not true

Depends on state laws.

As for evicting this person again, then they would be subject to the same lawsuit I threatened them with

In case it wasn't obvious a lawsuit was threatened. You mention all the violations of law and not mention lawsuit. Thought that was obvious.

But as I said that won't work everywhere. In this particular location it will.

As for allowing the person in but not allowing them to play table games, not sure. None of my people play table games. Not part of multi carding

Also since you are asking like this is in the present tense (you didn't read the entire post)... I have already SUCCESSFULLY OVERTURNED the trespass and that was awhile ago

Being it involves multi-carding which is always edgy, being it can be construed as misrepresentation or fraud, it sounds like you are trying to get this man arrested for things more serious than simple or defiant trespass being there is now no way to conceal: who he is, what he is doing, and what cards he is using. Whenever you are talking to security guards, security departments, lawyers, police, in the AP world you are someplace you don't want to be. If you even suspect there will be a difficulty when cashing out you should not play.

If I were in his position I would be playing somewhere else, and with someone else.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Being it involves multi-carding which is always edgy, being it can be construed as misrepresentation or fraud, it sounds like you are trying to get this man arrested for things more serious than simple or defiant trespass being there is now no way to conceal: who he is, what he is doing, and what cards he is using. Whenever you are talking to security guards, security departments, lawyers, police, in the AP world you are someplace you don't want to be. If you even suspect there will be a difficulty when cashing out you should not play.

If I were in his position I would be playing somewhere else, and with someone else.
link to original post

Another person who thinks multicarding is illegal.

Smfh

Been doing it 12 years

Caught 6 times (including 2x the same casino)with as many as 28 cards at once.

Police involved.

Zero charges (as they tell the casino that it's not illegal)

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Being it involves multi-carding which is always edgy, being it can be construed as misrepresentation or fraud, it sounds like you are trying to get this man arrested for things more serious than simple or defiant trespass being there is now no way to conceal: who he is, what he is doing, and what cards he is using. Whenever you are talking to security guards, security departments, lawyers, police, in the AP world you are someplace you don't want to be. If you even suspect there will be a difficulty when cashing out you should not play.

If I were in his position I would be playing somewhere else, and with someone else.
link to original post

Another person who thinks multicarding is illegal.

Smfh

Been doing it 12 years

Caught 6 times (including 2x the same casino)with as many as 28 cards at once.

Police involved.

Zero charges (as they tell the casino that it's not illegal)
link to original post

Where did I say I thought multicarding is illegal?

I said it can be construed as illegal. That means some guy with a GED and a gun who isn't bright enough to be cleaning the restrooms is going to be using his judgment as to whether it is illegal, and you probably know what such a person's judgment is worth. Legal or illegal, right or wrong, these guys have killed people and they have injured, set up, and falsely accused many more.

And all that for a racket where they can simply find out what cards he has and invalidate them with a press of a button, and then you have no racket at all.

I am not averse to risky and borderline moves like this (and even quite far beyond this) but if there is any significant chance I'm going to be talking to lawyers or explaining myself to someone in a uniform the pay had better be good, and I don't want to have to keep going back once I've been made. I cannot imagine any scenario where this game is worth the risk to the person walking in there and using those cards, and especially after what you have described.

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Being it involves multi-carding which is always edgy, being it can be construed as misrepresentation or fraud, it sounds like you are trying to get this man arrested for things more serious than simple or defiant trespass being there is now no way to conceal: who he is, what he is doing, and what cards he is using. Whenever you are talking to security guards, security departments, lawyers, police, in the AP world you are someplace you don't want to be. If you even suspect there will be a difficulty when cashing out you should not play.

If I were in his position I would be playing somewhere else, and with someone else.
link to original post

Another person who thinks multicarding is illegal.

Smfh

Been doing it 12 years

Caught 6 times (including 2x the same casino)with as many as 28 cards at once.

Police involved.

Zero charges (as they tell the casino that it's not illegal)
link to original post

Where did I say I thought multicarding is illegal?

I said it can be construed as illegal. That means some guy with a GED and a gun who isn't bright enough to be cleaning the restrooms is going to be using his judgment as to whether it is illegal, and you probably know what such a person's judgment is worth. Legal or illegal, right or wrong, these guys have killed people and they have injured, set up, and falsely accused many more.

And all that for a racket where they can simply find out what cards he has and invalidate them with a press of a button, and then you have no racket at all.

I am not averse to risky and borderline moves like this (and even quite far beyond this) but if there is any significant chance I'm going to be talking to lawyers or explaining myself to someone in a uniform the pay had better be good, and I don't want to have to keep going back once I've been made. I cannot imagine any scenario where this game is worth the risk to the person walking in there and using those cards, and especially after what you have described.
link to original post

Well my team members are pretty bold. And I don't see anyone getting shot on the casino floor for having players cards.

It's dangerous crossing the street so I suppose anything could happen but in general the casinos fear me, not the other way around.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AutomaticMonkey

Being it involves multi-carding which is always edgy, being it can be construed as misrepresentation or fraud, it sounds like you are trying to get this man arrested for things more serious than simple or defiant trespass being there is now no way to conceal: who he is, what he is doing, and what cards he is using. Whenever you are talking to security guards, security departments, lawyers, police, in the AP world you are someplace you don't want to be. If you even suspect there will be a difficulty when cashing out you should not play.

If I were in his position I would be playing somewhere else, and with someone else.
link to original post

Another person who thinks multicarding is illegal.

Smfh

Been doing it 12 years

Caught 6 times (including 2x the same casino)with as many as 28 cards at once.

Police involved.

Zero charges (as they tell the casino that it's not illegal)
link to original post

Where did I say I thought multicarding is illegal?

I said it can be construed as illegal. That means some guy with a GED and a gun who isn't bright enough to be cleaning the restrooms is going to be using his judgment as to whether it is illegal, and you probably know what such a person's judgment is worth. Legal or illegal, right or wrong, these guys have killed people and they have injured, set up, and falsely accused many more.

And all that for a racket where they can simply find out what cards he has and invalidate them with a press of a button, and then you have no racket at all.

I am not averse to risky and borderline moves like this (and even quite far beyond this) but if there is any significant chance I'm going to be talking to lawyers or explaining myself to someone in a uniform the pay had better be good, and I don't want to have to keep going back once I've been made. I cannot imagine any scenario where this game is worth the risk to the person walking in there and using those cards, and especially after what you have described.
link to original post

Well my team members are pretty bold. And I don't see anyone getting shot on the casino floor for having players cards.

It's dangerous crossing the street so I suppose anything could happen but in general the casinos fear me, not the other way around.
link to original post

Apparently, casinos also fear little old ladies who are suspected of buffalo hunting pennies.

I do have a question for you, perhaps it would be better asked in private.

How do you personally handle getting players' cards from people? I take it you have a handler who handles getting players' cards for you? Are all the people you have getting players' cards signing documentation permitting you to use their card? I know how this all goes down, people get lazy because they know a guy who knows a guy and everything is supposedly all good. Well, guess what, everything's all good... until it isn't.

If not properly documented, it would only take one person to lie and claim that they didn't give you their permission to use their free-play.

I've been in situations where Gaming has called every single person and asked them if they gave their permission for someone else to use their card.

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.
link to original post

Well perhaps I have been extremely lucky.

But I have about 1600 individuals currently, probably about 2000 over the decade as people have moved away or disappeared for one reason or another and like I said I have had about a 1% rogue rate.

Of course not all of them are taken to every casino. Different locales have different size operations. But it really hasn't been a problem.

Quote: MDawg

If whatever he wrote was anything like this

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/38859-coach-challenge-ruling-appeal/

(and included phrases such as fourteenth amendment , government actors under color of law , bearer bond , local banking laws , common law right to trespass , fiduciary obligations)

then I respectfully decline to believe that this happened the way or because of what he claims.

It could simply be that the casino had a good laugh at the letter and it all came down to that the person was never notified of the trespass.


Can't see why they wouldn't just trespass anew now, and do it right.
link to original post

Me neither. Post wreaks of BS. Casinos are private property. They can kick out whomever they want without reason. The only exception is kicking someone out solely because they are a member of a protected class. (Disability, Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation)

I’m assuming this is related to another tale Dark wrote about where the ticket was linked to a player card. Tickets are NOT linked to player cards. Management can track down tickets using their computers and surveillance and -IF- a player is using a card cross reference the time to figure out who it is.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.
link to original post

Well perhaps I have been extremely lucky.

But I have about 1600 individuals currently, probably about 2000 over the decade as people have moved away or disappeared for one reason or another and like I said I have had about a 1% rogue rate.

Of course not all of them are taken to every casino. Different locales have different size operations. But it really hasn't been a problem.
link to original post

You should write a book with all of your stories. Would a be fascinating read and most likely top 10 gambling fiction books on Amazon.

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: MDawg

If whatever he wrote was anything like this

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/38859-coach-challenge-ruling-appeal/

(and included phrases such as fourteenth amendment , government actors under color of law , bearer bond , local banking laws , common law right to trespass , fiduciary obligations)

then I respectfully decline to believe that this happened the way or because of what he claims.

It could simply be that the casino had a good laugh at the letter and it all came down to that the person was never notified of the trespass.


Can't see why they wouldn't just trespass anew now, and do it right.
link to original post

Me neither. Post wreaks of BS. Casinos are private property. They can kick out whomever they want without reason. The only exception is kicking someone out solely because they are a member of a protected class. (Disability, Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation)

I’m assuming this is related to another tale Dark wrote about where the ticket was linked to a player card. Tickets are NOT linked to player cards. Management can track down tickets using their computers and surveillance and -IF- a player is using a card cross reference the time to figure out who it is.
link to original post

I suppose I should be complimented that I can do things most people can't believe are possible.

Of course people not being educated in every states laws would help. It's funny how so many people believe the law in las Vegas is national law.

Several states do NOT allow someone to be kicked out solely for any reason and several states do not allow for the common law shopkeeper rule of right to refusal.

NJ, for example has it as part of their statute law. For example NJ 18c-3, D, 2 (presented below) says if the structure i.e. casino is open to the public and the actor (person being excluded) has done nothing illegal on the premises then the person can simply say, "nope, I am not trespassed". Read it yourself. Look it up. The wording is simple enough to understand.

And that's listed as an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE. I strongly suggest you look up what an AFFIRMATIVE defense means. Before looking stupid.

Once again, Darkoz right, everyone else wrong. Nothing unusual here.

Quote: Slotenthusiast

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.
link to original post

Well perhaps I have been extremely lucky.

But I have about 1600 individuals currently, probably about 2000 over the decade as people have moved away or disappeared for one reason or another and like I said I have had about a 1% rogue rate.

Of course not all of them are taken to every casino. Different locales have different size operations. But it really hasn't been a problem.
link to original post

You should write a book with all of your stories. Would a be fascinating read and most likely top 10 gambling fiction books on Amazon.
link to original post

I encountered some very interesting folks on my couple of dozen bus trips to AC. After hundreds of such trips, he should have a volume of tales just on the rides.

Quote: MDawg

link to original post

Yeesh, I hope you are not saying that's the level of your law degree?

I should hope an attorney understands simple phrases like "affirmative defense" "open to the public" and "unlawful activity on the premises "

But actually I am quite certain you do understand that I am 100% correct. That's why instead of saying I am wrong you just posted some book images. Too afraid to admit when Darkoz know more about the law than he does.

Why even bother to go to law school or put in the years working in the legal system? when we'll never be able to compete with that level of legal knowledge.

Quote: MDawg

Why even bother to go to law school or put in the years working in the legal system? when we'll never be able to compete with that level of legal knowledge.
link to original post

Well if you feel you wasted your years learning that's not on me

I feel sorry for you if you wasted those years.

Quote: MDawg

Why even bother to go to law school or put in the years working in the legal system? when we'll never be able to compete with that level of legal knowledge.
link to original post

I learned about the law from watching sovereign citizens and frauditors on YouTube. There is a wealth of knowledge there. Why waste three years and $200K when a free education awaits you online.

It's a clear violation of the third amendment.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.
link to original post

Well perhaps I have been extremely lucky.

But I have about 1600 individuals currently, probably about 2000 over the decade as people have moved away or disappeared for one reason or another and like I said I have had about a 1% rogue rate.

Of course not all of them are taken to every casino. Different locales have different size operations. But it really hasn't been a problem.
link to original post

Are you farming plays out to others and taking a cut? For example, you like and Trust Johnny so you tell Johnny exactly how and what machines to play, how much coin in to put in Etc for a cut of the profits? Do you have copartners that you split earnings and time with doing the plays?

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.
link to original post

Well perhaps I have been extremely lucky.

But I have about 1600 individuals currently, probably about 2000 over the decade as people have moved away or disappeared for one reason or another and like I said I have had about a 1% rogue rate.

Of course not all of them are taken to every casino. Different locales have different size operations. But it really hasn't been a problem.
link to original post

Are you farming plays out to others and taking a cut? For example, you like and Trust Johnny so you tell Johnny exactly how and what machines to play, how much coin in to put in Etc for a cut of the profits? Do you have copartners that you split earnings and time with doing the plays?
link to original post

That's close enough although I consider them my crew as opposed to copartners. I have ten regular crew that just themselves make as much as $8,000 a month. But it varies every month based on what and how much they do ($8,000 a month but not every month).

Some live off the work I give them, others have side jobs and business.

I personally haven't technically multi carded in awhile. In so much that I am not inside the casino with multiple cards. Other people are. At this point I am organizing the whole process.

Quote: billryan

Quote: MDawg

Why even bother to go to law school or put in the years working in the legal system? when we'll never be able to compete with that level of legal knowledge.
link to original post

I learned about the law from watching sovereign citizens and frauditors on YouTube. There is a wealth of knowledge there. Why waste three years and $200K when a free education awaits you online.
link to original post

I'm sorry to hear that.

I would suggest Google and typing in the precise laws you wish to learn about instead of using YouTube and fraud sites

Perhaps that is why you incorrectly believe it's a violation of the third amendment.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.
link to original post

Well perhaps I have been extremely lucky.

But I have about 1600 individuals currently, probably about 2000 over the decade as people have moved away or disappeared for one reason or another and like I said I have had about a 1% rogue rate.

Of course not all of them are taken to every casino. Different locales have different size operations. But it really hasn't been a problem.
link to original post

Are you farming plays out to others and taking a cut? For example, you like and Trust Johnny so you tell Johnny exactly how and what machines to play, how much coin in to put in Etc for a cut of the profits? Do you have copartners that you split earnings and time with doing the plays?
link to original post

That's close enough although I consider them my crew as opposed to copartners. I have ten regular crew that just themselves make as much as $8,000 a month. But it varies every month based on what and how much they do ($8,000 a month but not every month).

Some live off the work I give them, others have side jobs and business.

I personally haven't technically multi carded in awhile. In so much that I am not inside the casino with multiple cards. Other people are. At this point I am organizing the whole process.
link to original post

Yeah, I assume that was the case.
I certainly have taken on temporary partners and made deals with people, but I've avoided farming out on any large scale. Teaching too many people gets messy and ends up killing plays. There's always someone that tells someone who tells someone else.

My old-school thinking is that fewer people knowing about Advantage Play, the better. But I guess franchising out might actually be much better in the short term and it doesn't matter if things get burned out, because you made a lot of money quickly. When I started doing this there wasn't a whole lot of people doing it. But I guess nowadays it's best just to get as much as you can as quickly as you can even if that means teaching a bunch of people how to do it.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

Axel,

Yes I have a "handler" who locates people for me. Everyone is connected somehow from wives bringing husbands who bring their siblings etc. So one person lying would be screwing up the people they know and who brought them into the fold besides screwing me up

But I believe the odds of that happening are infinitesimal.

First they would have to do more than lie to police which alone probably deters them. Most people don't want to be involved in a lengthy law enforcement action. That's what would happen. As the victim, they would be asked to come down and make a statement which they swear to. They would be asked questions about themselves and their knowledge of the operation. And they would have to be willing to testify in a court of law under oath.

All of this would occupy a good year and a half of their lives. I just don't see this happening to someone who hasn't lost anything and in fact has made money from the situation. Not to mention the ire of their relatives/relationships who brought them in and might even testify in my behalf.

I often re-recruit my people I e. Calling back the same people to go to different casinos. So it's not a single payment they have received but have made money over the years.

Also, it's not enough to prove I used their cards without permission. Damages would also have to be shown. How much money did they lose gambling (zero) etc. These people don't know how I get the offers and would be too scared to explain how.

Finally they all get calendars in the mail. Difficult to claim they were unaware of activity at the casinos was going on when they are getting bombarded with offers and they didn't even gamble

So I just don't see it happening.

As for getting a signed letter that they okay my using their cards, no, I don't do that. Those letters would provide little to no protection.

I'm caught and someone lies. I pull out the letter and wave it around. The DA says, "oh, well long as you got that?"

Lol, he's more likely to claim I forged his signature. Most law enforcement believes if you do one type of fraud, you do them all

Or if they believe the letter is real, they will accuse me of deceiving the signed. Was the letter verified by their attorney? Did the person understand what they were signing?

Those seeming protections are often found lacking

But generally I get people begging for more opportunities. Can they bring other people they know or can they get another trip to make money. Not people trying to kill the golden goose.
link to original post

Are you telling me that everyone that gets a card for you ultimately sees/ or has the ability to easily access all the offers that are coming in? And are you telling me that you don't occasionally get rogues who get greedy and end up collecting the free play for themselves? Perhaps they're way too far away from the casinos to actually make it worthwhile I don't know, or perhaps the offers are all kept fairly low to avoid that situation.

I know that when offers start to get up there into the thousands and people find out exactly what free play is worth and what the offers are worth, there can be problems.

In my experience, there's always a bad apple somewhere along the lines.
link to original post

That's correct. Everyone is aware of the offers and in fact will come down to complain if there is a problem or come down to replace the card if it's damaged or lost or whatever.

A particular casino in the last year changed out all their players cards and I had to get everyone down to get replacements. A few didn't go (one was in Europe, one was ill etc) but my people don't generally go rogue.

And of course after my big robbery where all my players cards were stolen I pretty much had them all replaced within two months (Of course they came down because I was paying them to come down)

I have about 1% bad rogue actors in the last decade.

Offers are generally maxed out the highest I can get. I explain to everyone kinda what I am doing. That I am losing a lot of money to get these offers and by getting them I can pay them now and in the future.

Overall like I said, I have discovered people are much more honest than you think. It's just a few bad apples.

But truthfully, if anyone ever accused me of fraud, the irony would be it was me who was actually victimized as I dropped a lot of cash on their card and now they don't want me using it. So it would be interesting to see how that would go in a court case (Not that I want to find out lol)
link to original post

I'm very aware of how large-scale operations work regarding players cards.

IF you are doing 20+ people at once/one location for substantial amounts where everyone is aware of the amounts and the value while within a reasonable distance that is incredible your not getting rouges.

Perhaps I misunderstand how many people you are doing at once, or I am overestimating how much free play is coming per card per pickup, or I am misunderestimating how much you are paying people.

I know one can find some very solid people, but if you are running hundreds of cards obtained from people who are friends of friends via a handler, where people are all seeing their exact offers it just seems very unlikely there's not more people going rouge. I'm very aware of how large school operations work regarding players' cards.
link to original post

Well perhaps I have been extremely lucky.

But I have about 1600 individuals currently, probably about 2000 over the decade as people have moved away or disappeared for one reason or another and like I said I have had about a 1% rogue rate.

Of course not all of them are taken to every casino. Different locales have different size operations. But it really hasn't been a problem.
link to original post

Are you farming plays out to others and taking a cut? For example, you like and Trust Johnny so you tell Johnny exactly how and what machines to play, how much coin in to put in Etc for a cut of the profits? Do you have copartners that you split earnings and time with doing the plays?
link to original post

That's close enough although I consider them my crew as opposed to copartners. I have ten regular crew that just themselves make as much as $8,000 a month. But it varies every month based on what and how much they do ($8,000 a month but not every month).

Some live off the work I give them, others have side jobs and business.

I personally haven't technically multi carded in awhile. In so much that I am not inside the casino with multiple cards. Other people are. At this point I am organizing the whole process.
link to original post

Yeah, I assume that was the case.
I certainly have taken on temporary partners and made deals with people, but I've avoided farming out on any large scale. Teaching too many people gets messy and ends up killing plays. There's always someone that tells someone who tells someone else.

My old-school thinking is that fewer people knowing about Advantage Play, the better. But I guess franchising out might actually be much better in the short term and it doesn't matter if things get burned out, because you made a lot of money quickly. When I started doing this there wasn't a whole lot of people doing it. But I guess nowadays it's best just to get as much as you can as quickly as you can even if that means teaching a bunch of people how to do it.
link to original post

Yeah it's just an issue that all business owners face.

The people working the top who know "enough" are all people I knew from the past and who never screwed me over. So that helps