Easements implied by necessity Washington State
August 17th, 2024 at 8:38:49 PM
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Yes, I know.>>>>> get an attorney!!!!!!
Meh, I'm cheap and like doing stuff myself when possible. I know there are many smart WOV people with logical, legal, and investigative knowledge.
I would love some advice to consider.
Here is the situation.
I found a great place in the PNW, WA, a place where I want to spend some significant recreational time. I love it, but what really sold me was the fact that my wife absolutely loved it(she had seen many nice places and seemed to like this place more for some reason.) Quick description, a small lot on a cliff of a big beautiful river with so many diverse recreational stuff to do around the area, along with access to shopping, etc within 30 min. IT'S VERY QUIET AREA!!!!! Oh, and it's a great price in theory.
So what's the problem? Original access was wiped out by a major flood in the 90's (yeah I know the future risk)
There are 2 other owners of 8 lots beside and behind this property I want, the only way to the property I want is from/through their main road gates and property (less than 300 feet of travel.)
I talked to one of the old grumpy neighbors who could give me access. He was a real tough grump/prick. I assume he doesn't want anyone to buy the land since he has been using it all as his own for years. (FYI no one lives on any of the lots full time, I believe they are all old with plenty of money and big houses around the area.)
The original owner rarely ever went there for 25 years +++ the neighbors won't buy it themselves, probably because they got their lots for super cheap back in the day.
After some negotiations, IE. I said I would build a proper gate to the property and not do XYZ (NO AirBB) he finally said x,xxx cash. So, I made a handshake deal with the guy for ease of access. He then said, "Let me talk to my wife first".
later that day he called me to say, "ok, it's a deal".
I signed a contract with the real state agent(he was present for the negotiation). I requested a 15-day feasibility clause based on the neighbor's word. That day the neighbor called me and confirmed his wife said yes.
I started drafting the contract based on WA requirements regarding granted ease of access to the property and researched how to file the documents with the county that included descriptions, maps lot numbers surveys, pictures etc
I knew there was a possibility he could renege/change his mind but he said he was a man of his word, like me
OFC, he did backtrack/renege and he started to require other things... IE Don't do this/don't do that etc.
I'm thinking*... FK THAT, You will get nothing, and I'll force an easement access.
Any advice on how to proceed with access to a landlocked property and ease of access? what should I expect if they totally object?
if there are 3 access points owned by 2 people, but who or what do I go after? shortest distance, easier access, less disruption to one's property, most direct route?
Meh, I'm cheap and like doing stuff myself when possible. I know there are many smart WOV people with logical, legal, and investigative knowledge.
I would love some advice to consider.
Here is the situation.
I found a great place in the PNW, WA, a place where I want to spend some significant recreational time. I love it, but what really sold me was the fact that my wife absolutely loved it(she had seen many nice places and seemed to like this place more for some reason.) Quick description, a small lot on a cliff of a big beautiful river with so many diverse recreational stuff to do around the area, along with access to shopping, etc within 30 min. IT'S VERY QUIET AREA!!!!! Oh, and it's a great price in theory.
So what's the problem? Original access was wiped out by a major flood in the 90's (yeah I know the future risk)
There are 2 other owners of 8 lots beside and behind this property I want, the only way to the property I want is from/through their main road gates and property (less than 300 feet of travel.)
I talked to one of the old grumpy neighbors who could give me access. He was a real tough grump/prick. I assume he doesn't want anyone to buy the land since he has been using it all as his own for years. (FYI no one lives on any of the lots full time, I believe they are all old with plenty of money and big houses around the area.)
The original owner rarely ever went there for 25 years +++ the neighbors won't buy it themselves, probably because they got their lots for super cheap back in the day.
After some negotiations, IE. I said I would build a proper gate to the property and not do XYZ (NO AirBB) he finally said x,xxx cash. So, I made a handshake deal with the guy for ease of access. He then said, "Let me talk to my wife first".
later that day he called me to say, "ok, it's a deal".
I signed a contract with the real state agent(he was present for the negotiation). I requested a 15-day feasibility clause based on the neighbor's word. That day the neighbor called me and confirmed his wife said yes.
I started drafting the contract based on WA requirements regarding granted ease of access to the property and researched how to file the documents with the county that included descriptions, maps lot numbers surveys, pictures etc
I knew there was a possibility he could renege/change his mind but he said he was a man of his word, like me
OFC, he did backtrack/renege and he started to require other things... IE Don't do this/don't do that etc.
I'm thinking*... FK THAT, You will get nothing, and I'll force an easement access.
Any advice on how to proceed with access to a landlocked property and ease of access? what should I expect if they totally object?
if there are 3 access points owned by 2 people, but who or what do I go after? shortest distance, easier access, less disruption to one's property, most direct route?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 17th, 2024 at 8:50:27 PM
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Assuming I followed your tortuous narrative accurately, and no one is willing to grant you access, it sounds like you could just keep going through until you eventually achieve a prescriptive easement.
In CA that takes five years you have to do it openly hostilely (open, notorious, and clearly visible to the landowner, and is hostile and adverse to the owner). Now if they decide to board up their lands such that you physically can’t get through then you need to go a different route but it sounds like no one is around all the time and even when they are they aren’t doing much with their properties.
To cut through the legal terms - if you just keep passing through without permission eventually you’ll have a legal right to keep doing that.
When I used the word tortuous partly I was referring to that it's unclear whether there is currently a gate that would stop you from passing through. You mention their “main gates” and then mention also your building a gate. If there are fences and gates stopping you from passing through - that’s a problem. Otherwise,
achieving a prescriptive easement through these types of rural sounds like undeveloped rarely inhabited lands might just be the ticket.
In CA that takes five years you have to do it openly hostilely (open, notorious, and clearly visible to the landowner, and is hostile and adverse to the owner). Now if they decide to board up their lands such that you physically can’t get through then you need to go a different route but it sounds like no one is around all the time and even when they are they aren’t doing much with their properties.
To cut through the legal terms - if you just keep passing through without permission eventually you’ll have a legal right to keep doing that.
When I used the word tortuous partly I was referring to that it's unclear whether there is currently a gate that would stop you from passing through. You mention their “main gates” and then mention also your building a gate. If there are fences and gates stopping you from passing through - that’s a problem. Otherwise,
achieving a prescriptive easement through these types of rural sounds like undeveloped rarely inhabited lands might just be the ticket.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 17th, 2024 at 9:13:30 PM
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This is in Washington state, not CA. I can't just pass though without cutting a lock-chained "fence". I thought of doing that(cutting it) with notice and repairing the lock/chain, but I dont want to start off like that. And I do not even know if that is legal to do that regardless of my legal rights. A court might see that as me not respecting a legal process. I tried to convince the neighbors that I'm the the lesser of all the evils who would buy the property, and I think they agree with that, but I now believe they are trying to extort and control me given my eagerness to please and accept various terms discussed.Quote: MDawgAssuming I followed your tortuous narrative accurately, and no one is willing to grant you access, it sounds like you could just keep going through until you eventually achieve a prescriptive easement.
In CA that takes five years you have to do it openly hostilely (open, notorious, and clearly visible to the landowner, and is hostile and adverse to the owner). Now if they decide to board up their lands such that you physically can’t get through then you need to go a different route but it sounds like no one is around all the time and even when they are they aren’t doing much with their properties.
To cut through the legal terms - if you just keep passing through without permission eventually you’ll have a legal right to keep doing that.
link to original post
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 17th, 2024 at 9:20:21 PM
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In all the places in the world you WANT to live near that guy?
And to go through all that stuff to do so?
There are no other creeks in Washington State?
And to go through all that stuff to do so?
There are no other creeks in Washington State?
August 17th, 2024 at 9:20:53 PM
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Every state has prescriptive easement rights, just the requirements vary.
To satisfy the "open and notorious" aspect, your passage has to be continuous - not as in every day, but regular. If you're showing up just a few months a year for recreation that might not cut it, although it COULD establish your right to pass through during that season, every year.
The cutting the locked gates to go through doesn't defeat the prescriptive easement, it might still be achieved if you just kept cutting locks and they did nothing about it other than change locks. But if they started calling the sheriff to report trespassing, then that would defeat the prescriptive easement because it defeats the element of adverse, when the owner starts objecting to your passing through.
Basically prescriptive easements result when someone keeps passing through and the owner is aware of it but does nothing much about it.
To satisfy the "open and notorious" aspect, your passage has to be continuous - not as in every day, but regular. If you're showing up just a few months a year for recreation that might not cut it, although it COULD establish your right to pass through during that season, every year.
The cutting the locked gates to go through doesn't defeat the prescriptive easement, it might still be achieved if you just kept cutting locks and they did nothing about it other than change locks. But if they started calling the sheriff to report trespassing, then that would defeat the prescriptive easement because it defeats the element of adverse, when the owner starts objecting to your passing through.
Basically prescriptive easements result when someone keeps passing through and the owner is aware of it but does nothing much about it.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 17th, 2024 at 9:21:38 PM
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OFC I should Just buy somthing else, however, I believe this is a great price and value for what we are looking for. I have been looking in this area for over a year. This is the 2nd place I felt was good value(I lost the first one by underbidding, I was very disappointed since I would have paid the asking price, but I got outbid by 1k only).
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 17th, 2024 at 9:23:24 PM
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If it is selling below market that could be because it is landlocked with no current legal access!
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 17th, 2024 at 9:25:42 PM
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Another route might be an easement by necessity, but the laws for this too vary state to state, and perhaps the fact that the road was washed out but might be restored in the future would defeat the necessity.
Advice and analysis beyond this, you know how to reach me...and pay me (just ask DarkOz he figured out a way to slip a couple grand into my pocket without my having to do much more than I do all the time anyway)!
Advice and analysis beyond this, you know how to reach me...and pay me (just ask DarkOz he figured out a way to slip a couple grand into my pocket without my having to do much more than I do all the time anyway)!
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 17th, 2024 at 9:30:19 PM
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Not like this, and it's not a creek, it's the Skyhomiah river. There are 4 creeks within a few miles, there are Lakes nearby, there are great towns, and some of our favorite places nearby.Quote: SOOPOOIn all the places in the world you WANT to live near that guy?
And to go through all that stuff to do so?
There are no other creeks in Washington State?
link to original post
I have a feeling one of our own will talk about this newly discovered (by him) area.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 17th, 2024 at 9:40:37 PM
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Obviously, there's an issue with accessing it. It's partly below market value because I took the time to find, wine, and dine with the current owner and explain why I love his place so much. He respected the fact that I did that. He dropped the original price in half and he called his agent to draw up paperwork asap and meet us. It's nothing to him considering he is selling out millions of dollars in property in the area for health reasons.Quote: MDawgIf it is selling below market that could be because it is landlocked with no current legal access!
link to original post
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 17th, 2024 at 9:53:17 PM
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If you read my original post, I mentioned that as the obvious and most reliable way to go about this without a legal agreement from the other land owner.Quote: MDawgAnother route might be an easement by necessity
That's what I'm asking for advice on. It(the law regarding land-locked property) seems straightforward to me. However, I can't find any clear path to getting this done.
Can I represent myself? Do I need a judge to grant the easement? how do I get a court date? Does the landowner need to be present or notified of any court proceedings?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 18th, 2024 at 12:32:52 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfNot like this, and it's not a creek, it's the Skyhomiah river. There are 4 creeks within a few miles, there are Lakes nearby, there are great towns, and some of our favorite places nearby.Quote: SOOPOOIn all the places in the world you WANT to live near that guy?
And to go through all that stuff to do so?
There are no other creeks in Washington State?
link to original post
I have a feeling one of our own will talk about this newly discovered (by him) area.
link to original post
Skyhomiah ??? You mean Skykomish? If so your getting a little too close for comfort. Skykomish is also the name of
an extra small town just before the summit, brothers wife's family own a ski cabin there and used to run a ski school.
Here is a good start.
https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/can-property-remain-legally-landlocked-in-washingt-564466.html
August 18th, 2024 at 5:11:46 AM
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Quote: AxelWolf
Can I represent myself? Do I need a judge to grant the easement? how do I get a court date? Does the landowner need to be present or notified of any court proceedings?
I would recommend that you pay an attorney for a consult and a few hours of his time just for advice. You don't necessarily have to have him represent you but the advice will probably be worth the cost.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 18th, 2024 at 7:44:51 AM
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axel, i work for a land surveyor. if you are comfortable giving me the address info, ill look at some of the free resources i normally use.
if you are uncomfortable, you can search for the state and counties' "GIS" website. Sometimes these are horribly wrong we say the acronym stands for "get it surveyed" so the outline of your property in these offical website may be wrong looking. What you need to do is look for something called the Parcel Id, or Tax ID, depending on your state. Our survey company does not service Florida. And what im about to say is sometimes this info will lead to the ability to see a deed. The deed should also lead to the easement DESCRIPTIONS.
Sometimes you also have to go to the county courthouse and retrieve these documents yourself out of a safety precaution. Sometimes they cost money.
Once i have all of this i could roughly plot your property and easements for you.
Thats if you are comfortable doing such things.
i suggest you get it surveyed though. they will plot the access easements depending on your ALTA agreement.
then i suggest you make a decision. depending on what the access easements say you may not have to pay for it to be fixed. They may be required to fix it.
if you are uncomfortable, you can search for the state and counties' "GIS" website. Sometimes these are horribly wrong we say the acronym stands for "get it surveyed" so the outline of your property in these offical website may be wrong looking. What you need to do is look for something called the Parcel Id, or Tax ID, depending on your state. Our survey company does not service Florida. And what im about to say is sometimes this info will lead to the ability to see a deed. The deed should also lead to the easement DESCRIPTIONS.
Sometimes you also have to go to the county courthouse and retrieve these documents yourself out of a safety precaution. Sometimes they cost money.
Once i have all of this i could roughly plot your property and easements for you.
Thats if you are comfortable doing such things.
i suggest you get it surveyed though. they will plot the access easements depending on your ALTA agreement.
then i suggest you make a decision. depending on what the access easements say you may not have to pay for it to be fixed. They may be required to fix it.
August 18th, 2024 at 7:59:55 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfYes, I know.>>>>> get an attorney!!!!!!
get it surved, surveyors are legally backed by lawyers and their work is as well at least state certified ones
Quote: AxelWolf
So what's the problem? Original access was wiped out by a major flood in the 90's (yeah I know the future risk)
link to original post
The only time ive ever heard of any kind of property "disappearing" is when a flood or a fire gets into the county courthouse "original" paper documents, and those documents are not backed up in any way. They simply restart. That rarely happens but its a posibility.
What im saying is that if the county has the access easement document, then a storn cant change the agreement. The only time weather "changes" a legally binding deed is if a property is up against a changing body of water.
The easement should always exist unless there is a legal document getting rid of the easement, or if the easement was not meant to be permanent.
August 18th, 2024 at 10:50:20 AM
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Quote: heatmapQuote: AxelWolfYes, I know.>>>>> get an attorney!!!!!!
get it surved, surveyors are legally backed by lawyers and their work is as well at least state certified onesQuote: AxelWolf
So what's the problem? Original access was wiped out by a major flood in the 90's (yeah I know the future risk)
link to original post
The only time ive ever heard of any kind of property "disappearing" is when a flood or a fire gets into the county courthouse "original" paper documents, and those documents are not backed up in any way. They simply restart. That rarely happens but its a posibility.
What im saying is that if the county has the access easement document, then a storn cant change the agreement. The only time weather "changes" a legally binding deed is if a property is up against a changing body of water.
The easement should always exist unless there is a legal document getting rid of the easement, or if the easement was not meant to be permanent.
link to original post
I know exactly the place of which he speaks what's happening is big extended periods of rain combine and accelerate
the snow run off from the mountains the river swells and crests its's banks. In the location he is talking about
the river is eroding it away when this happens. The land sits above the river during times of excess rain large chunks of land are washed into the river many feet at a time.
river.
August 18th, 2024 at 3:07:42 PM
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My dad left me in situation kind of similar. He bought land that previous owner had a county road through neighbor’s land. But i think its past ten years of abandon. So, i may be landlocked. Neighbor blocked county road with a gate. Id have to drive back and look around. It was used only as hunting land. No house no cabin. I dont like hunting. Id rather just sell to neighbors. After i inherit.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Aug 18, 2024
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
August 18th, 2024 at 6:08:33 PM
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Quote: rainmanQuote: heatmapQuote: AxelWolfYes, I know.>>>>> get an attorney!!!!!!
get it surved, surveyors are legally backed by lawyers and their work is as well at least state certified onesQuote: AxelWolf
So what's the problem? Original access was wiped out by a major flood in the 90's (yeah I know the future risk)
link to original post
The only time ive ever heard of any kind of property "disappearing" is when a flood or a fire gets into the county courthouse "original" paper documents, and those documents are not backed up in any way. They simply restart. That rarely happens but its a posibility.
What im saying is that if the county has the access easement document, then a storn cant change the agreement. The only time weather "changes" a legally binding deed is if a property is up against a changing body of water.
The easement should always exist unless there is a legal document getting rid of the easement, or if the easement was not meant to be permanent.
link to original post
I know exactly the place of which he speaks what's happening is big extended periods of rain combine and accelerate
the snow run off from the mountains the river swells and crests its's banks. In the location he is talking about
the river is eroding it away when this happens. The land sits above the river during times of excess rain large chunks of land are washed into the river many feet at a time.
river.
link to original post
ive thought about your response... and like i said the only reason a deed boundary can change is if it was DESCRIBED to be up against a body of water.
and this is runoff apparently... nothing at all like a river or ocean.
this easement will most likely still be legally binding. IMO
either way lets see the deed to get to the bottom of this
August 18th, 2024 at 7:09:08 PM
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Quote: heatmapQuote: rainmanQuote: heatmapQuote: AxelWolfYes, I know.>>>>> get an attorney!!!!!!
get it surved, surveyors are legally backed by lawyers and their work is as well at least state certified onesQuote: AxelWolf
So what's the problem? Original access was wiped out by a major flood in the 90's (yeah I know the future risk)
link to original post
The only time ive ever heard of any kind of property "disappearing" is when a flood or a fire gets into the county courthouse "original" paper documents, and those documents are not backed up in any way. They simply restart. That rarely happens but its a posibility.
What im saying is that if the county has the access easement document, then a storn cant change the agreement. The only time weather "changes" a legally binding deed is if a property is up against a changing body of water.
The easement should always exist unless there is a legal document getting rid of the easement, or if the easement was not meant to be permanent.
link to original post
I know exactly the place of which he speaks what's happening is big extended periods of rain combine and accelerate
the snow run off from the mountains the river swells and crests its's banks. In the location he is talking about
the river is eroding it away when this happens. The land sits above the river during times of excess rain large chunks of land are washed into the river many feet at a time.
river.
link to original post
ive thought about your response... and like i said the only reason a deed boundary can change is if it was DESCRIBED to be up against a body of water.
and this is runoff apparently... nothing at all like a river or ocean.
this easement will most likely still be legally binding. IMO
either way lets see the deed to get to the bottom of this
link to original post
August 18th, 2024 at 7:15:22 PM
permalink
Quote: heatmapQuote: rainmanQuote: heatmapQuote: AxelWolfYes, I know.>>>>> get an attorney!!!!!!
get it surved, surveyors are legally backed by lawyers and their work is as well at least state certified onesQuote: AxelWolf
So what's the problem? Original access was wiped out by a major flood in the 90's (yeah I know the future risk)
link to original post
The only time ive ever heard of any kind of property "disappearing" is when a flood or a fire gets into the county courthouse "original" paper documents, and those documents are not backed up in any way. They simply restart. That rarely happens but its a posibility.
What im saying is that if the county has the access easement document, then a storn cant change the agreement. The only time weather "changes" a legally binding deed is if a property is up against a changing body of water.
The easement should always exist unless there is a legal document getting rid of the easement, or if the easement was not meant to be permanent.
link to original post
I know exactly the place of which he speaks what's happening is big extended periods of rain combine and accelerate
the snow run off from the mountains the river swells and crests its's banks. In the location he is talking about
the river is eroding it away when this happens. The land sits above the river during times of excess rain large chunks of land are washed into the river many feet at a time.
river.
link to original post
ive thought about your response... and like i said the only reason a deed boundary can change is if it was DESCRIBED to be up against a body of water.
and this is runoff apparently... nothing at all like a river or ocean.
this easement will most likely still be legally binding. IMO
either way lets see the deed to get to the bottom of this
link to original post
The lot he is looking at is up against the river and is being eroded away the river is cutting a new path.
This has nothing to do with his easement/access problem separate issue.
Land cannot be landlocked in Washington he can get access it's a matter of cost.
August 19th, 2024 at 5:36:22 PM
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Maybe, ask a sheriff deputy of past activity on the easement. But you said it is erosion.
We talked to the sheriff dealing with poachers using the county road. We agreed to gate it.
We talked to the sheriff dealing with poachers using the county road. We agreed to gate it.
Last edited by: jjjoooggg on Aug 19, 2024
Born in Texas and lived in Texas my whole life.
