Wizard, what about an AP challenge?
December 29th, 2010 at 10:24:28 PM
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1000 hands of VP
Speed and accuracy are evaluated.
I mean, let's see someone's thousand hands an hour speed, for those claiming that -- and how accurate they are.
You'd probably have to modify an application you already have -- like one of your poker apps online.
But then I was thinking, unless you have a touch screen app, it might be tough to imitate VP play. So, perhaps instead, a "flash card" style quiz where one is shown the deal with the draw cards marked, and one either mouse clicks a yes button that the draw is correct, or a no button while a timer runs and a hand number countdown occurs.
Speed and accuracy are evaluated.
I mean, let's see someone's thousand hands an hour speed, for those claiming that -- and how accurate they are.
You'd probably have to modify an application you already have -- like one of your poker apps online.
But then I was thinking, unless you have a touch screen app, it might be tough to imitate VP play. So, perhaps instead, a "flash card" style quiz where one is shown the deal with the draw cards marked, and one either mouse clicks a yes button that the draw is correct, or a no button while a timer runs and a hand number countdown occurs.
Sanitized for Your Protection
December 29th, 2010 at 10:29:35 PM
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...or another idea, an app that keeps top scores on your site. Same evaluations for speed and accuracy.
So, when someone breaks the record (similar to keeping record of royal flushes you have) they email you a code, or it's generated automatically, so you verify their record..
So, when someone breaks the record (similar to keeping record of royal flushes you have) they email you a code, or it's generated automatically, so you verify their record..
Sanitized for Your Protection
December 29th, 2010 at 11:53:13 PM
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Quote: rxwine1000 hands of VP
Speed and accuracy are evaluated.
I mean, let's see someone's thousand hands an hour speed, for those claiming that -- and how accurate they are.
You'd probably have to modify an application you already have -- like one of your poker apps online.
But then I was thinking, unless you have a touch screen app, it might be tough to imitate VP play. So, perhaps instead, a "flash card" style quiz where one is shown the deal with the draw cards marked, and one either mouse clicks a yes button that the draw is correct, or a no button while a timer runs and a hand number countdown occurs.
It would have to be the same thousand hands every time, and the same game with the same paytable, otherwise the challenge wouldn't be fair.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
December 30th, 2010 at 3:38:15 AM
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I have thought about doing this for years. What I'd like to do is buy some buttons and a box to make something that looks and feels like the 6 main buttons of a video poker game and plug it into a computer via a USB cable. Then I'd have the user play as many hands as possible on WinPoker, or some equivalent. There would be a score based on both number of hands and the cost of errors. I know that some users would get easier hands than others, but there is an effect of randomness present in lots of competitions. Over 15 minutes of playing, I think things would average out.
What stops me is the interface is way beyond my ability in electronics. I also know that many of the best video poker players would not want their names listed publically as one of the best players. If an AP doesn't have some product to sell, chances are he/she is trying to maintain a low profile, and wouldn't accept the challenge.
What stops me is the interface is way beyond my ability in electronics. I also know that many of the best video poker players would not want their names listed publically as one of the best players. If an AP doesn't have some product to sell, chances are he/she is trying to maintain a low profile, and wouldn't accept the challenge.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 30th, 2010 at 5:58:15 AM
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If anyone was that interested in doing this (using the honor system) don't most
of the VP software trainers have something like this ? And don't most of the
"serious" VP players have one of the software programs ?
For example, I think the ZAMZOW Winpoker keeps track of all this data for a
session. So probably the only thing the "entrant" would need is a watch to keep
track of the time.
Now, I guess my question would be how many hands should be the minimum
required to play ? 200 ? 500 ? More ?
The "winning" entry would not be for how far ahead someone was, but what
the lowest difference from perfect play was.
of the VP software trainers have something like this ? And don't most of the
"serious" VP players have one of the software programs ?
For example, I think the ZAMZOW Winpoker keeps track of all this data for a
session. So probably the only thing the "entrant" would need is a watch to keep
track of the time.
Now, I guess my question would be how many hands should be the minimum
required to play ? 200 ? 500 ? More ?
The "winning" entry would not be for how far ahead someone was, but what
the lowest difference from perfect play was.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 30th, 2010 at 6:32:46 AM
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game: 9/6 JoB
what: Winpoker 6.0
hands: 200
time: 21:46
Best return: 983.77
My return: 931.38
"return %" = 99.76 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 2.38
So I think the criteria for this little experiment would
be the 99.76 return, which is how close I was able
to get to computer perfect play. I'm not an AP player,
but I like to lose as little as possible.
what: Winpoker 6.0
hands: 200
time: 21:46
Best return: 983.77
My return: 931.38
"return %" = 99.76 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 2.38
So I think the criteria for this little experiment would
be the 99.76 return, which is how close I was able
to get to computer perfect play. I'm not an AP player,
but I like to lose as little as possible.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 30th, 2010 at 6:34:15 AM
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CORRECTION, I had a typo on my return value in the first post:
game: 9/6 JoB
what: Winpoker 6.0
hands: 200
time: 21:46
Best return: 983.77
My return: 981.38
"return %" = 99.76 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 2.38
So I think the criteria for this little experiment would
be the 99.76 return, which is how close I was able
to get to computer perfect play. I'm not an AP player,
but I like to lose as little as possible.
game: 9/6 JoB
what: Winpoker 6.0
hands: 200
time: 21:46
Best return: 983.77
My return: 981.38
"return %" = 99.76 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 2.38
So I think the criteria for this little experiment would
be the 99.76 return, which is how close I was able
to get to computer perfect play. I'm not an AP player,
but I like to lose as little as possible.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 30th, 2010 at 6:52:08 AM
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I have the iPad version of Winpoker and it works pretty much like a real VP machine in addition to providing a lot of statistics about your play. Doing this challenge would be quite easy with an iPad.
December 30th, 2010 at 7:34:20 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 30th, 2010 at 8:57:36 AM
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So, are you going to try and set a higher mark for 200 hands ? Is the CHALLENGE on ?
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 30th, 2010 at 9:08:24 AM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 30th, 2010 at 9:43:01 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesAt home, I play my 9/6 JoB all the time and I dont see how using the 1-5 keys for the hold buttons and the enter key for deal/draw makes it any slower than a normal VP machine.
You can't cut short the pay counter, like on most VP machines.
December 30th, 2010 at 10:13:53 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesAt home, I play my 9/6 JoB all the time and I dont see how using the 1-5 keys for the hold buttons and the enter key for deal/draw makes it any slower than a normal VP machine.
I could picture some fast players complaining they are not used to the computer or ipad interface. I also speculate mistakes are more likely on a real machine. I'm just trying to make it as realistic of a challenge as possible.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 30th, 2010 at 10:22:07 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 30th, 2010 at 11:56:51 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI can't vouch for other players, but I make more mistakes at home. The most common is when I go to hold the middle card which is represented by the "3" key and hit enter instead which is the draw button. As for me at a real VP machine, I would rather play slow and accurate as opposed to fast with mistakes.
I use the mouse when I play WinPoker or Video Poker for Winners. I'm sure that is slower, but more accurate. However, because real money is not at stake, I think I am not as careful playing WinPoker, and go too fast. I would be embarrassed to see how many "major errors" I have made. On the other hand, I know I've made errors in not pressing the button hard enough on real games. Several years ago, at the Orleans, I had a $25 bet in deuces wild, got two deuces, but didn't press the button hard enough on one of them, and tossed it away. I'm still mad at myself over that. My point being is that it is a difference using the mouse in WinPoker and a real game.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 30th, 2010 at 12:14:36 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 30th, 2010 at 3:51:12 PM
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I use Frugal Video Poker. Using the QWERTY keys pretty well simulates the machine buttons. I would put my accuracy rate up near anyone's. When I first started using FVP, I was surprised at how much better I was at Deuces Wild than JOB. JOB is actually harder since missing a pair is so much more costly than in DW. Now I can get up to maybe 99.82% accuracy with 1,000 hands an hour. The card designs are too small, though, which causes mistakes.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
December 30th, 2010 at 5:39:48 PM
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All these results are meaningless. I've read about this AP speed things a number of times over the years, and whenever you get a bragger you never see them say the obvious, that your accuracy rate takes a dive after the first hour due to fatigue and boredon and gets worse with every hour thereafter, even without drinking or the many distractions inside a real casino.
December 30th, 2010 at 5:51:21 PM
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Quote: JerryLoganyou never see them say the obvious, that your accuracy rate takes a dive after the first hour due to fatigue and boredon and gets worse with every hour thereafter, even without drinking or the many distractions inside a real casino.
Of course the accuracy drops due to fatigue.
The same is true for any casino game that takes thinking.
So what's your point ?
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 30th, 2010 at 6:34:14 PM
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Try #2:
"return %" = 98.75 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 13.08
I just tried this again and as you can
see didn't do very well.
But I think at least part of that
was due to user error on my laptop
computer, where I had held a pair
but managed to erase that just
before I hit the deal button.
game: 9/6 JoB
what: Winpoker 6.0
hands: 200
"return %" = 98.75 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 13.08
"return %" = 98.75 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 13.08
I just tried this again and as you can
see didn't do very well.
But I think at least part of that
was due to user error on my laptop
computer, where I had held a pair
but managed to erase that just
before I hit the deal button.
game: 9/6 JoB
what: Winpoker 6.0
hands: 200
"return %" = 98.75 ( ie my return / best return )
cost in coins = 13.08
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 30th, 2010 at 8:32:38 PM
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Quote: JohnnyQOf course the accuracy drops due to fatigue.
The same is true for any casino game that takes thinking.
So what's your point ?
Point: Dancer and his lying troup claim they play the same after 10 hours.
December 30th, 2010 at 8:41:56 PM
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Quote: JerryLoganPoint: Dancer and his lying troup claim they play the same after 10 hours.
NLHE tournaments go for far, far longer than 10 hours, and certainly not all players fade the way you're implying. Mental fatigue is a very personal thing. I used to be able to go non-stop for almost two days on low-level software engineering which was orders of magnitude more complex than VP strategy. For better or worse, I had that kind of tolerance for it and my grades proved it. I couldn't do the same sort of session on Chaucer or the history of the Crusades, though.
The point is that some people actually do have the ability to concentrate on certain things for what seems like a ridiculous amount of time. In the grand scheme of things, 10 hours of rote memory recall, which is what VP is, isn't far-fetched at all.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
December 30th, 2010 at 8:57:57 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistNLHE tournaments go for far, far longer than 10 hours, and certainly not all players fade the way you're implying. Mental fatigue is a very personal thing. I used to be able to go non-stop for almost two days on low-level software engineering which was orders of magnitude more complex than VP strategy. For better or worse, I had that kind of tolerance for it and my grades proved it. I couldn't do the same sort of session on Chaucer or the history of the Crusades, though.
The point is that some people actually do have the ability to concentrate on certain things for what seems like a ridiculous amount of time. In the grand scheme of things, 10 hours of rote memory recall, which is what VP is, isn't far-fetched at all.
You're comparing apples to peanuts. Play at a table is far different from playing a machine with no other human interaction. Plus the repetitive events at a machine are so far beyond what goes on at a table that it's off the charts. You can't be that naive.
December 31st, 2010 at 5:39:14 AM
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OK, third time is a charm !
200 Hands, 9/6 JoB:
99.97 % = ( My Return / Best Possible Return ).
However, Winpoker said I still made 1 minor and
2 major mistakes. So I guess I'll turn the warning
back on and try to see what I'm not seeing !
I don't know of a better statistic to use than
the Return ratio, but it some situations, I assume
you could make a lot of bad choices but get
lucky and have a good ratio ?
200 Hands, 9/6 JoB:
99.97 % = ( My Return / Best Possible Return ).
However, Winpoker said I still made 1 minor and
2 major mistakes. So I guess I'll turn the warning
back on and try to see what I'm not seeing !
I don't know of a better statistic to use than
the Return ratio, but it some situations, I assume
you could make a lot of bad choices but get
lucky and have a good ratio ?
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 31st, 2010 at 5:40:19 AM
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ps: I am viewing this is a FP ( Full Pay ) rather than an AP ( Advantage Play ) challenge.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
December 31st, 2010 at 1:40:21 PM
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Wiz:
Wow, the player response to trying this and posting their esults
has been totally underwhelming !
So, can I declare myself the winner and qualify for the normal
Wiz prize package ? I'd choose a lunch with the Wiz on my next
trip out.
Normally I like NSUD but I wanted to brush up on JorB because
of the Four Winds promotion. I didn't write down their DW
paytables.
Wow, the player response to trying this and posting their esults
has been totally underwhelming !
So, can I declare myself the winner and qualify for the normal
Wiz prize package ? I'd choose a lunch with the Wiz on my next
trip out.
Normally I like NSUD but I wanted to brush up on JorB because
of the Four Winds promotion. I didn't write down their DW
paytables.
There's emptiness behind their eyes
There's dust in all their hearts
They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
