A Question on Card Counting Strategy

Long time lurker here to pose a question to those with far more gaming knowledge than I have and more mathematical prowess than I could ever hope to desire. I apologize in advance for providing what could possibly be less numerical information than is required, but I'd appreciate any advice (or ridicule) that one could supply based on the information.
I am currently involved in a card counting competition with the prize being a free 3-day trip to Vegas, air fare and lodging included, to partake in yet another competition held by the WGC. The competition states that each person from my site will get 1 deck. 1 card is removed and you count it down for time. Then 2 cards are removed and you count it down for time. Finally 3 cards are removed and you count it down for time. Your three times are averaged and the top three move on to the Final Count, where the top three from my site go against the top three from our sister site with the top counter winning the trip. Currently, I am the top person from our site and have locked in my spot for the Final Count.
My questions are 1) What is your opinion of a fast time, as far as high speed card counting goes (I'm relatively new to gaming), and 2) What strategy would you employ to both guarantee yourself the trip, and then give yourself a chance to actually win the competition in Vegas? To attempt to help the math part of question #2, my numbers are as follows...
With non-ignorable distractions (intentionally answering questions or singing a song while counting) I get the count correct 95% of the time with an average time of ~18 seconds.
With ignorable distractions ( people purposely yelling, slamming books down behind me, trying to make me laugh) I count correctly 98% of the time with an average of ~16 seconds.
With no purposeful distractions and my focus on accuracy, I count correctly 99% of the time with an average of ~15 seconds.
With no purposeful distractions and my focus on speed, I count correctly 92% of the time with an average of just under 14 seconds.
The fastest I can physically flip through the cards without counting but just visually recognizing the numbers is about 11.5 seconds. When trying to keep the count while doing this, I count correctly 65% of the time in ~12.8 seconds.
The average time I qualified with, with my focus on accuracy and the addition of the pressure of competition, was 15.28 seconds.
Any assistance (or again, ridicule) provided would be welcome. Regardless of which you pick, based on what I've seen on this site, it's sure to be stimulating =)

It sounds like you're in pretty good shape - as no casino in general would allow their players to be disturbed by anything aside from some normal table banter, or the occasional visit from the cocktail waitress. (Would any restaurant allow people to just walk up to the tables and badger their diners - just for the purpose of distraction?)
As for fast dealing and counting times, I don't count cards (actually, I AM a dealer), but dealers deal on average from 260 to 400 hands per hour, depending only on the players' abilities, experience, and sobriety. This means that the low-limit tables are the beginners' tables, if beginners are present. ALL dealers with six months or more experience deal pretty much the same - plenty fast for a table game, - much in the same way you wouldn't see any experienced driver drive at 15 mph on an wide-open highway on a sunny day, short of a traffic jam.
So, if you're at a $25+ table, players are consistently experiened, sober and focused on the game.

Now, having said that, you'd be a fool to seriously think of card-counting as a rewarding experience:
1. You'd make more money working, with more productivity, personal utility, - far more reliably and with far less risk.
2. It isn't fun, it's work, so why work at something that's supposed to be a recreation?
3. Card counting is unreliable. The largest edge you'll see on average is maybe 1%, and you'll have to noticeably vary your bet size AND have a good run.
4. Casinos track counters, big bet variances, and unusual winning streaks, so if you could make it pay off at any time, it'll be very short-lived until you're identified and barred as a counter.
5. Card counting smacks of a hostile "screw the gaming industry and any honest player" mentality, if you look at this objectively. For that matter, one just as well could countefeit transit passes and get their jollies by getting free bus rides and saying to themselves, "yippie, I'm so slick - I beat the [transit] system! Yesss!"
I'd say this if I weren't employed by the gaming industry, it's just a "let's see if I can get my excitement by trying to pull one over on a business, gaming or otherwise." People may argue with this point of view, but ultimately I can't feel there's any merit in attempting to score a free lunch in any field or by any method - if it's based on a "bad faith" or "beat the system" attitude.

Quote: Paigowdan

5. Card counting smacks of a hostile "screw the gaming industry and any honest player" mentality, if you look at this objectively. For that matter, one just as well could countefeit transit passes and get their jollies by getting free bus rides and saying to themselves, "yippie, I'm so slick - I beat the [transit] system! Yesss!"

I agree with all your other points, but I resent this one very much. Everyone can spot the sleight of hand (card counting is legal, counterfeit passes are not), and, I think, it makes your point actually weaker, not stronger (any position that cannot be defended without trickery is a weak one).

If we must have an analogy with non-gambling world, I would suggest that counting is akin to diligent coupon clipping, driving miles around to get the best deal, spending a night at the store parking lot on Black Friday. You can make profit from such activity, and there is nothing wrong with it, it just feels like way too much work for the benefit to the most of us.

Counterfeit transit passes on the other hand is like playing with counterfeit tokens, or colluding with the dealer - potentially very profitable, but completely illegal.

I apologize for my lack of direction in my original post, as my objective was clearly lost. That'll teach me not to post until all concussion symptoms have passed and my head is sufficiently clear =P.

I've no intention of putting my counting skills to test at the tables for I also work in the gaming industry and feel I understand the concept, at least well enough to not risk $100 to win $1. In fact, my question has nothing to do with gambling at all, except for the fact that I'm using a skill which is used by Blackjack players. It's simply a competition within my company of who can Hi-Lo count the fastest with the prize of a free 3-day trip to Vegas going to the fastest counter. My first question, I believe, was more or less answered with your reply of 'It sounds like you're in pretty good shape'. My second question was just to get some insight on what this community thought to be the best way to approach this. I understand there are some serious math guys here that might scoff at my generalized and estimated times, and extremely small batch of trials (my stats above are from a span of, say, 500 trials), but I wasn't expecting someone to formulate an elaborate strategy of some weird 'break even' point, I.E. doing it in 'X' time maximizes your speed while mitigating chance of failure. It was more just wondering, given at least some information and skill history, of the best way to approach both the contest to win the trip, and then win the big contest in Vegas. My thoughts were to shoot for the 'middle ground' to play it safe and not eliminate myself for going to fast and getting the count wrong, (~16 seconds with 98% accuracy rate) and just go balls to the wall and try the 12 seconds in Vegas if I happen to make it, 65% accuracy be damned.

Thank you for responding though. It's always nice to hear others opinions, even if they are off topic due to the posters inability to properly communicate =)

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

[
1. Completely false! Sure at small stakes you will make small potatoes but as your BR grows, you bet more or move to higher limit tables. I started on $5 and $10 games and easily moved to $50 tables when I counted. And at the $5 and $10 games, I was making $20+ an hour. Sure beats working at Walmart or busting my rump in a factory. Now if you have a high paying job, you can always use counting to supplement your income. As for risk. You need a seperate BR aside from everyday living expenses to be used as you "tool of the trade" as I call it. No more different than a poker players BR.

"Risk" doesn't necessarily mean the risk to lose your house or to go bankrupt. My estimate is that to make $20/hour, you need a session bankroll of about $10,000. And then, you can still lose it one day, and, if you do, you are unlikely to quit playing forever, so your total bankroll, set aside for gambling, should be at least several times that, say $50K.

Now, if you can afford to just take $50K, and set it aside for gambling without it affecting your lifestyle and daily expenses, then it just doesn't sound to me like $20/hour would be of any significance to you as a supplement to your income ...

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

For a $5 game and played properly you should only need $2000, $4000 for a $10 game, etc.

I am not sure I understand how you get these numbers.
Here is how I came up with mine. You said, you can make $20/hr. Assuming about 1% advantage on average, and, say, 30 hands per hour, your average bet would need to be about $67. According to Kelly criterion (and, again, assuming 1% advantage), that corresponds to $6,700 bankroll. Now, you gotta take breaks sometimes (i.e., you average bet over time will have to be somewhat higher), and you are not playing at advantage all the time (meaning that, when you do, you'll need to be making bets much higher than the average to make up), so I "round up" the number to $10,000.

Quote:

This is why when you are losing, you must lower your bets and/or your spead. That is if you are playing at the $25 level and lose, you have to go to the $15 or $10 level.

The level only really matters if you are ever going to bet the max (you can bet 67 bucks on either table), so, as long, as your bets are under the table limit, I see no point in changing tables. Just pick the lowest min available, and stay there.

If you are considering betting a 1000+ bucks per hand, it's a whole different story, but then we are talking about bankrolls in the ballpark of 100K.

My industry bias shows, and I am unapolegetic about it. I DID say #5 was a big point of contention; we all have POV's.
If I were a table games manager:
1. DAS, DOA, H17, split to four hands.
1. 6/5 single deck, 5:1 bet ratio from start bet, 5 deals on a single player/4 deals for two players are okay.
2. 3/2 Double deck 80% penetration for flat bettors, but on anyone who exceeds 3:1 bet ratio the table gets 50% penetration.
4. Shoe games, 60% penetration, and Continuous shufflers.
5. Side bets (push your luck, Instant 18) offered. Remember, side bet players pay for card-counting sinners, so bless them. (MO, just a joke.)
6. Floormen/surveillance check for counters. Got to.

Question, particularly for dealers/BJ pros:
What is the biggest tip off of a pro/knowledable BJ player:
a) Hit S18 vs. 9+
b) Hit 12 v. 2
c) name it...

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Quote: Paigowdan

Question, particularly for dealers/BJ pros:
What is the biggest tip off of a pro/knowledable BJ player:
a) Hit S18 vs. 9+
b) Hit 12 v. 2
c) name it...

Hit 12 against 3, hit 16 against 7, split 4s against 6.

Quote: weaselman

Quote: Paigowdan

5. Card counting smacks of a hostile "screw the gaming industry and any honest player" mentality, if you look at this objectively. For that matter, one just as well could countefeit transit passes and get their jollies by getting free bus rides and saying to themselves, "yippie, I'm so slick - I beat the [transit] system! Yesss!"

I agree with all your other points, but I resent this one very much. Everyone can spot the sleight of hand (card counting is legal, counterfeit passes are not), and, I think, it makes your point actually weaker, not stronger (any position that cannot be defended without trickery is a weak one).

If we must have an analogy with non-gambling world, I would suggest that counting is akin to diligent coupon clipping, driving miles around to get the best deal, spending a night at the store parking lot on Black Friday. You can make profit from such activity, and there is nothing wrong with it, it just feels like way too much work for the benefit to the most of us.

Counterfeit transit passes on the other hand is like playing with counterfeit tokens, or colluding with the dealer - potentially very profitable, but completely illegal.

You must be a counter who is trying to feel OK about what you do. If everyone used CSMs, then it would be fine for you counters
to have at it, use your brain, as you like to say. But....then you couldn't use your brain, could you? Strange.

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Quote: dm

You must be a counter who is trying to feel OK about what you do.

It's a double "no" actually :)
First, I usually don't count anymore, because I just don't think the income I can make doing it is worth my effort. I have better and faster ways to make money. I go to casino to have fun, if I wanted to make money, I'd rather go to work.

And second, when I did count (and still do every now and then for a change, and to keep the skill), I still felt pretty good about myself. I really don't see anything wrong with it, and my feelings about myself almost never depend on other people's opinions. I am capable of forming my own.

Quote:

If everyone used CSMs, then it would be fine for you counters

There is a reason why they don't though ... Think about it.

Casino management has always loathed card counters or anyone else who wins but I am surprised that a dealer would compare it to a criminal act. How would the casinos like it if some of their ploys to separate players from their money were compared to criminal acts? Plying players with alcohol, offering next to worthless coupons and giving away trinkets comes to mind. What about the slot player that hits it big? The casino wouldn't give them the time of day and now they are offering free suites just so they can try to get their money back. It works both ways.

By the way, smart casinos realize that a good majority of card counters actually lose.

Quote: weaselman

There is a reason why they don't though ... Think about it.

I think I know but please tell. Is it if all games were CSMs then hardly anyone would play???

Quote: DeMango

I think I know but please tell. Is it if all games were CSMs then hardly anyone would play???

Why do you think that? CSM is actually better for the majority of people who do not count, because it lowers the house edge. Why wouldn't they play?
No, I think the reason they don't have that many CSMs is because they are expensive to buy and maintain, and the extent the casinos are being hurt by counters isn't nearly enough to justify those additional expenses.

You wonder why you haven't heard of a "buisnesman" buying a CSM and running marked deck tests to check for true randomness and any other quirks that can be exploited.

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Quote: benbakdoff

Casino management has always loathed card counters or anyone else who wins but I am surprised that a dealer would compare it to a criminal act.

So am I, as matter of fact, as I described it as a "bad faith" action, and not as a felonious action - which it is NOT. And offering alcohol is a standard service that adults may enjoy and choose with descretion as based on the levels that they operate on, should have a right to have, and should be able to handle and enjoy as grown ups. This is really not a conspiratoprial practice but is a fine consideration and perk for them, and should not be described as conspiratorial by anti-industry attack sources who lie when they imply that we hold guns to their heads to slam down a never ending series of shots of Jeager, before letting them bet $100 a hand or more. Shoot, just drink the Pelgrino if you want,what ever makes you happy, the waitresses don't care what you choose to drink and are under no orders to inflict crippling intoxication. Indeed, what helps us is respectful embibing and intelligent play, and a we cut off clowns who get greedy on our openbars, just as we cut off over-board card-counters, and who would be providing none present a "good time" for others or their wallets by over doing it.
Coupons have fine cash value ($10 to $500 table values from players clubs, with the car give aways valued to up to $50,000. Sure, there are cheapie books also, and they too are just fine for modest tourist players giving their hand a try, and whose miserly play warrant such levels, and who are more than happy to play them.)

And yes, we realize that a large part of card counters lose their asses, and we provide our player-club players the fine accomodations and meals worthy of their patronage (God bless this compassionate industry who takes care of its lost and fallen who had previosly tried to fleece us and fail. If you've every sobered up in a comped room, with breakfast waiting, it is a statement that your play was fine with us and that you earned some perqs for it.)

Casinos would be fools to fear or bar card counters, and many welcome their action when behaving appropriately within generous-enough fair-play limits and guidelines, and who can do well with it.

I'm surprised that the very fine and high level play they provide, that the promotions and services we still provide in return to our esteemed clients are meet with comtempt, suspicion and acusation when they themselves had at times tried to fleece us. I am sure if we pulled them down in rank, we'd be accused of being cheap bastards who could easily afford to treat them better. Simply put, many people bitch and moan reasonable conditions, do use them, and may find rewarding times, if they are not "over the top" with either brazen play or over-indulgent on comps.

Card counter or not, striking a healthy balance of play and behaviour goes a long way in fitting in and having a good and rewarding time.

Quote: Paigowdan

So am I, as matter of fact, as I described it as a "bad faith" action, and not as a felonious action - which it is NOT.

Well, you compared it to counterfeiting transit passes, which is a criminal act, not just "bad faith"

I don't really see how counting is a "bad faith" action though. Isn't the fine print on the casino coupon or promotion ad equally "bad faith" then (if the casino acted in good faith, they'd want me to notice the fine print, and consequently would not have made it so "fine")? Or, how about advertising the running amount of the jackpot in huge shining screens on top of the slot machines, but never mentioning the actual chance of it hitting?

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Quote: Paigowdan

And yes, we realize that a large part of card counters lose their asses, and we provide our player-club players the fine accomodations and meals worthy of their patronage (God bless this compassionate industry who takes care of its lost and fallen who had previosly tried to fleece us and fail. If you've every sobered up in a comped room, with breakfast waiting, it is a statement that your play was fine with us and that you earned some perqs for it.)

Casinos would be fools to fear or bar card counters, and many welcome their action when behaving appropriately within generous-enough fair-play limits and guidelines, and who can do well with it.

I've thought the same thing, based on my experience on the job. Counting cards is much harder than detecting a counter, and counting is pretty simple. I can usually tell within 5 minutes if someone is counting, using some sort of money management system, etc, and can undenyably prove it within a half hour. Yet time and again, these players end up leaving down for the night. Some take us and take us big, $100,000-$200,000 a night, but give it all back their next trip. Consulting their yearly and lifetime play always shows they're down or very, very slightly ahead. It always makes me wonder, and I've yet to find an answer, on why it's even on the casino's radar as something to worry about. When I started, my world revolved around BJ. Learn BS, learn money management, learn policy and procedure, learn to count, blah, blah, blah. And if countings suspected, do a rundown of the patron, log his play, create a spreadsheet for computer analysis. And when counting is 'confirmed', the GM is notified, Table Games are notified........and not one thing happens. The AP is still allowed in, still allowed on BJ, still allowed to wager his previous amounts, it just makes me wonder what the fuss is about. And all the while I'm spending hours spread over multiple days analysing his play, people are pulling non-value off roulette, sneaking linens out the back door, selling pills in the back of the house, and a million other things I'd be better of preventing. It's just so strange. In my opinion, the only way to make real money at BJ is to play BS, (or count if you want a little more player advantage), bet big, and LEAVE WHEN YOU'RE UP.

Quote: Face

I've thought the same thing, based on my experience on the job. Counting cards is much harder than detecting a counter, and counting is pretty simple. I can usually tell within 5 minutes if someone is counting, using some sort of money management system, etc, and can undenyably prove it within a half hour. Yet time and again, these players end up leaving down for the night. Some take us and take us big, $100,000-$200,000 a night, but give it all back their next trip. Consulting their yearly and lifetime play always shows they're down or very, very slightly ahead. It always makes me wonder, and I've yet to find an answer, on why it's even on the casino's radar as something to worry about. When I started, my world revolved around BJ. Learn BS, learn money management, learn policy and procedure, learn to count, blah, blah, blah. And if countings suspected, do a rundown of the patron, log his play, create a spreadsheet for computer analysis. And when counting is 'confirmed', the GM is notified, Table Games are notified........and not one thing happens. The AP is still allowed in, still allowed on BJ, still allowed to wager his previous amounts, it just makes me wonder what the fuss is about. And all the while I'm spending hours spread over multiple days analysing his play, people are pulling non-value off roulette, sneaking linens out the back door, selling pills in the back of the house, and a million other things I'd be better of preventing. It's just so strange. In my opinion, the only way to make real money at BJ is to play BS, (or count if you want a little more player advantage), bet big, and LEAVE WHEN YOU'RE UP.

Your post makes a lot of sense and I wish casino managers everywhere would read it. When Ed Thorp wrote Beat the Dealer casinos tightened up the rules and people refused to play blackjack. The casinos soon realized that they had no choice but to relax the rules. Once that happened, players flocked to the tables after reading the book and believing they could beat the game at will. The result was more players and more profit for the casino. I hope they at least sent Dr. Thorp a thank you note.

Tolerating counters could be good publicity for the casinos with little risk. They would still identify and ban teams and whatever damage the lone counter could do would be made up by all the losing counters.

Leave when you're up has been addressed many times in this forum. I must disagree by taking the somewhat controversial view that it's one lifetime session. If you are never going to play again, than by all means quit when you are up otherwise it is meaningless.

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The absolute best way for winning at blackjack is to count cards. The phrase 'counting cards' has some mystery behind it. There are quite a few ways to count cards and majority of them don't actually involve keeping track of every single card in the deck which most people can't possibly do, especially when the game involves multiple decks. Instead, card counting systems like Hi-Lo and ace tracking work by keeping track of an average of high and low cards, letting you get a general idea of how many high many high cards are left, so you know how likely you are to get what you need. From here http://www.jokeronlinecasino.com/card-counting-blackjack.html you may get more information on card counting.

Quote: Paigowdan

5. Card counting smacks of a hostile "screw the gaming industry and any honest player" mentality, if you look at this objectively. For that matter, one just as well could countefeit transit passes and get their jollies by getting free bus rides and saying to themselves, "yippie, I'm so slick - I beat the [transit] system! Yesss!"

Then what do you think about all the basic strategy players that flocked to Connecticut when Mohegan Sun announced a triple-down blackjack promotion? Were they trying to screw the industry too?

What about cold-hearted acting and bluffing live poker players - well, these actually are out to screw any honest player.

What about basic strategy players hanging out at video poker machines with 0.2% player edge?

What about people who start buying lottery tickets or playing slots if they notice the jackpot - advertised right there in big flashing lights - is big enough to make it worth the ticket?

The fact is, gambling establishments offer games that can be beaten all the time. It's the very reason people play these games for real money, because they can be beaten. Some times a game is easier to beat than others, such as when there is a promotion going on. Some times this is advertised in big flashing lights, other times it takes a bit of math to notice.

The game of Blackjack has a promotion built in: blackjack, rewarding the player with bonus payout. As the deck is being depleted, mid-hand or between hands, the frequency of these often tends to increase. It is where the relative advantage of single-deck games come from. It is the way the game has been devised. Anyone who plays card games can tell that accounting for removed cards is an essential part of about every card game strategy. How would you call a poker player who folds an AK with two aces on the board, because the aggressive preflop raiser to his left seems to have pocket rockets - or is he an evil card-counter if he doesn't?

All a card-counter does is look out for this promotion built into the very game of Blackjack, and take more risk when he has better chances to be rewarded. Seeing how blackjack tables don't have fixed bet limits, which many games like fixed limit poker do, on the face of it a naive player could think that the casinos not only allow one to bet more than the table minimum, but might even be encouraging it! And why would anyone bet more than usual if not because he believes his chances are better this time? But players who are wrong in this belief are welcomed, and players who are right are not.

If you are looking for players out there to screw the industry and other players, card-counters are right there with video poker players and promotion seekers. Even live poker players are more "evil", when hanging around fish on low-stake tables. And then there are shuffle-trackers, hole-carders, outright cheaters, and all these other types who actually DON'T play the game as it has been devised.

But if, after these types have been taken care of, hordes of card-counters still turn out to be ransacking your casino in the end, $5/$10, $25/$50 and $100/$200 bet limit tables will easily take care of them. I'm pretty sure the lowest minimum seeking crowd won't mind. By offering $10-$1000 bet limits at the same table, casinos hope to lure tourists who don't know how to play into betting more - taking a calculated risk by allowing players who know how to play to do the same.
Which, you have to agree, is only fair. The only reason casinos have to ban card-counters is because they can.

Quote: stinsonsmart

The absolute best way for winning at blackjack is to count cards. The phrase 'counting cards' has some mystery behind it. There are quite a few ways to count cards and majority of them don't actually involve keeping track of every single card in the deck which most people can't possibly do, especially when the game involves multiple decks. Instead, card counting systems like Hi-Lo and ace tracking work by keeping track of an average of high and low cards, letting you get a general idea of how many high many high cards are left, so you know how likely you are to get what you need. From here http://www.jokeronlinecasino.com/card-counting-blackjack.html you may get more information on card counting.

Really? That's the site for information on card counting? The same site that has systems for beating roulette? Stick with the Wizard for reliable information without having to empty your wallet.

stinsonsmart is a bot (or some weird person pretending to be a bot). All it's posts are spam from some dictionary-style entry on the subject of the thread.

As for the OP, those times seem pretty solid. I know a lot of people count cards 2 at a time off a deck (to practice for the real world), but I find it's faster to slide the cards so I can see about 5 at a time, and look for canceling hi-los. If you are lucky and the count doesn't waver from 0 much, you can fly through the deck. If I had a deck on me I'd time myself doing that a couple times so I could give you a reference. Maybe tonight.

Quote: Face

I've thought the same thing, based on my experience on the job. Counting cards is much harder than detecting a counter, and counting is pretty simple. I can usually tell within 5 minutes if someone is counting, using some sort of money management system, etc, and can undenyably prove it within a half hour. Yet time and again, these players end up leaving down for the night. Some take us and take us big, $100,000-$200,000 a night, but give it all back their next trip. Consulting their yearly and lifetime play always shows they're down or very, very slightly ahead. It always makes me wonder, and I've yet to find an answer, on why it's even on the casino's radar as something to worry about. When I started, my world revolved around BJ. Learn BS, learn money management, learn policy and procedure, learn to count, blah, blah, blah. And if countings suspected, do a rundown of the patron, log his play, create a spreadsheet for computer analysis. And when counting is 'confirmed', the GM is notified, Table Games are notified........and not one thing happens. The AP is still allowed in, still allowed on BJ, still allowed to wager his previous amounts, it just makes me wonder what the fuss is about. And all the while I'm spending hours spread over multiple days analysing his play, people are pulling non-value off roulette, sneaking linens out the back door, selling pills in the back of the house, and a million other things I'd be better of preventing. It's just so strange. In my opinion, the only way to make real money at BJ is to play BS, (or count if you want a little more player advantage), bet big, and LEAVE WHEN YOU'RE UP.

What are they going to do with all those broke players who are waiting to BE UP so they can leave? And the crowd will just keep growing.....forever. And there is NO player advantage with only BS, assuming normally offered rules.

Quote: P90

But if, after these types have been taken care of, hordes of card-counters still turn out to be ransacking your casino in the end, $5/$10, $25/$50 and $100/$200 bet limit tables will easily take care of them. I'm pretty sure the lowest minimum seeking crowd won't mind. By offering $10-$1000 bet limits at the same table, casinos hope to lure tourists who don't know how to play into betting more - taking a calculated risk by allowing players who know how to play to do the same.
Which, you have to agree, is only fair. The only reason casinos have to ban card-counters is because they can.

Ignorant pit bosses aside, those who run casinos ought to realize that for every savvy card counter who takes advantage of the rules of the game and the fact that you can bet such variable amounts to rape and ravage the poor innocent casino virgin, there are a thousand ploppies who use that $1000 table limit as an opportunity to instantly self-destruct. Putting in a $25 max table may stop the evil card counter from betting big, but it will also stop the drunken moron. Even a few moments' deep thought will indicate that it isn't worth it.

Quote: benbakdoff

Leave when you're up has been addressed many times in this forum. I must disagree by taking the somewhat controversial view that it's one lifetime session. If you are never going to play again, than by all means quit when you are up otherwise it is meaningless.

Sorry, ben and dm, I didn't mean to imply that was a foolproof strategy nor highly informed or educated advice. I was just thinking of our most prolific counter vs one of our best* players (*in terms of dollars ahead).

The counter was suspected by me and my department and confirmed through computer analysis. He's a big money guy and often leaves up $100,000+, but a consultation of his year/life winnings shows him wavering between slightly up to slightly down (+/- $10,000 - $20,000). He counts well, makes the appropriate deviations and generally plays a smart game. He doesn't go too aggresive and reveal himself, nor does he play too conservative and kill his advantage. He's just a good counter, yet stays in the 'break even' range regardless.

This other guy, though, I STILL havent figured out what he's doing. If he's counting, you can't tell because he deviates seldom and the deviations are usually without merit. Seems more of a hunch bettor than anything. His wager fluctuations are wild ($5 - $2,500) but don't coincide with any form of any counting I know. He pays no attention to the shuffle, often leaving the table for breaks during this time. He always plays standing, lessening the chance of a hole carder. And through his wager fluctuations, theres not a single money management system apparent. No Martingale, Anti-Mart, Paroli, D'Alembert, Anti-D'Alem, NY...nothing. (Not that they work, mind you, I'm just saying ;) Through his wild wagers and hunching, it sort of appears that he bets streaks, sending his wagers through the roof after a string of wins, buts that just as likely to bust him out as fill his bank. The only thing I see this guy do repeatedly without fail is leave when he's up. Whether it's 6 hours or 35 minutes, he's out and he doesn't come back. As a result, he's up 50% of his 'in', and his actual winnings are twice that of his theoretical.

I agree that 'leaving when your up' is no sort of strategy nor is it foolproof, as many would never be up to begin with. I just came to that opinion based on the above story.

Betting the trend and making a ton of money. The John Patrick way. Oh the humanity!