AP warning Egames possible AI

I may have been hit at one of my operations with an AI. Definitely it was software.

At unnamed casino using E-games for Doey Don't is quite lucrative. Unlike live tables, there is no pit boss to recognize and cancel the play. Some places are more valuable than others. I won't spell out why.

At this particular location the play is so valuable that I have about 240 cards running currently (this month) at that one location. I am not the only team. I know of at least three others and at least one of them dwarfs my operation. I saw them collecting free-play from 11AM until nearly midnight. My estimate is they probably are doing a thousand cards.

All these teams are using E-Craps to build cards. I should stress I do NOT use E-games to build. I use other unrelated methods for card building.

What I use it for is to "walk the dog" To give cards currently in use some exercise. Generally hosts won't turn off a card if after taking $150 in freeplay they then lose $1000 at Baccarat even in just a single hand. Or even for winning because they took the risk.

At this unnamed casino I have been "walking the dog" with no problem for awhile. And it's not all 240 cards that have to be walked every day. Once a week is enough.

About a month ago, my people reported that the entire E-games section was down with technicians working on the machines. it was an all day thing. They sent me pictures of the workers doing this new installation.

When they returned to "walk the dog" a few days later (I get daily freeplay but not every day like I get weekly freeplay but not every week) they discovered the screens all had a different look to them so it was most definitely a software upgrade.

They walked the dog on 40 cards. I should stress they always do the freeplay first. So about $15,000 in freeplay was played off, then they went and walked the dog on E-Baccarat 40 cards.

They finished and left. One of the two workers realized they still had six cards with freeplay that for one reason or another had been set aside. SO they returned to the casino and while playing off the freeplay by the third card they were surrounded by security.

They tried their usual strong arm tactics but my person was well trained and ended up walking out the front door without giving up ID. They were verbally trespassed and informed they were evicted for usage of multiple cards.

SO, were they observed using the cards at the slots initially or at E-Baccarat? That was the question. Thankfully, security informed my worker that the cards were being locked from future use (this is good intel and security really speaks too much. They need to keep their mouths shut.)

I was certain this was some new software at the E-Baccarat tables. It was too much coincidence that it occurred directly after the new installation of software. I heavily doubted the casino watched complacently as my workers did $15,000 in freeplay. I seemed much more logical they got flagged at the Baccarat tables and surveillance kept quiet because after all my crew is still losing money (an actuality while doing oppositional wagering).

I sent in a new person (one of my crew who didn't care if they got caught because they live far enough away that they won't cover that location on the regular) and they confirmed my suspicions.

34 of the 40 cards done at Baccarat were now locked. Also the three cards that had been used after Baccarat when my worker was observed taking freeplay was locked.

And nothing else.

So, it was definitely the Baccarat play that was observed.

Now, if they hadn't done the new installation I might have assumed they just got lucky observing my crew. But really, to do that, they would have to zoom in on two players amongst a crowded table (and this was at peak playing times on a weekend) and noticed them playing the same wager amounts and that players cards were being flipped which would have required them watching for that activitiy. I don't see surveillance doing that unless they already have suspicions about a person.

For years I laughed at the software installed in E-games that prevents one from wagering against oneself with doey/don't The solution was so easy. Just have two seperate people at different seats wagering against each other. Looks like they now have software (AI) to detect this activity.

Most likely, the AI or software examines all wagers at each round and compares seats to see if the same wager on opposite sides is being made. This wouldn't be enough to unilaterally make a decision certainly two unrelated people might make similar wagers on opposite sides. So surveillance is then notified of the suspicious seats and they take over from there.

At any rate, AI or not, this new anti-AP software has been detected and digested by me within a week. Countermeasures are already in place.

But trust me, they didn't make this software for just one installation. If you are an AP who uses E-games to build or for any other reason,, Be aware there is a new detection method out there.

I really doubt they are using any AI software. Having worked for 20 years in that field that would not fit the pattern. The casino games and systems developers are 5 to 10 years behind the technology curve. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they were just monitoring those games more closely because they just did the upgrade.

I know "A.I." is the buzzword this year but I don't believe it has made it to the casino industry yet. They may have some newer more intelligent software, but it isn't anything to do with A.I.

Quote: DRich

I really doubt they are using any AI software. Having worked for 20 years in that field that would not fit the pattern. The casino games and systems developers are 5 to 10 years behind the technology curve. The only thing I can think of is that maybe they were just monitoring those games more closely because they just did the upgrade.

I know "A.I." is the buzzword this year but I don't believe it has made it to the casino industry yet. They may have some newer more intelligent software, but it isn't anything to do with A.I.
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Yes this may be the most likely answer.

But I am certain it's software of some form. Even if it's just comparative software analyzing wagers.

Darkoz, given the amount of turnover I assume you do, why even bother with opposite wagers? I would think at your level of playing, dealing with the variance would be doable and literally 0 EV. This way there would be no pattern to look for (other than frequent card switching, of course, but you do that on slots as well, so nothing unique to e-games here.

Quote: Mukke

Darkoz, given the amount of turnover I assume you do, why even bother with opposite wagers? I would think at your level of playing, dealing with the variance would be doable and literally 0 EV. This way there would be no pattern to look for (other than frequent card switching, of course, but you do that on slots as well, so nothing unique to e-games here.
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I don't trust variance.

At any rate I have a less lucrative but effective method so switching to that

I could have sworn I earned $2.00 in points on e-roulette on my last trip, only to find $1.98 of my points didn't accrue to my card.

Quote: ChumpChange

I could have sworn I earned $2.00 in points on e-roulette on my last trip, only to find $1.98 of my points didn't accrue to my card.
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Three day suspension for hi-jacking this thread. This is a particularly random hijack. We have observed you doing this multiple times across many threads and you just seem to persist in doing this.

I think the most likely chain of events is

1. Casino realizes there might be a problem with e-tables
2. Shuts down machine to check if there is a problem
3. Catches your people because now they are looking at the e-tables.

Given the other people you say are building on e-tables, the shut down could have been to change the theo, or just check the theo.

The step 1 could be from a variety of causes, but a possibility is an accounting irregularity or spotting suspicious behavior.

And of course I'm sure you know there are a lot of false positive e-table shutdowns where the machines are off for some unknown reason and remain identical after.

After reading the original thread again, I realize that the screen looked different after the shutdown, so there was definitely a change to the machines. It also makes it more likely that the starting point is them deciding to shut down the machines to install the upgrade.

I think most of the time casinos are on autopilot and that's why you can get away with stuff. If they are looking for the thing you are doing, its extremely hard to get away with anything.